Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[tmoran]

In <dewar.881038997@merv> Robert Dewar said:
>tmoran said
>
><<Gnat 3.10p1 (Dewar's compiler)
>>>
>
>GNAT is not "Dewar's compiler", it is a compiler originally written at NYU
>under contract to the DoD, and more recently greatly enhanced and supported
>by Ada Core Technologies. ACT has a team of over ten full time engineers
>devoted to improving and maintaining this compiler. It is by no means
>a one-person project!

  Pardon me.  I did not mean to suggest it was a one-man project.
Robert Dewar has previously suggested, quite reasonably, that
people recomminding a product should mention their special
relationships to that product.  That mention was missing from his
recommendation of GNAT.  Since my messsage was recommending a
complementary product (Claw, which runs with GNAT among others) and
I was saying that I had worked on Claw, it seemed reasonable to add
the missing information.  Since that information was probably of
minor, though not zero, concern to the author of the original
message, I made it a two word parenthetical remark, rather than
giving a history or organization chart or annual report of ACT.
I'm sorry if that shortening was too drastic and resulted in an
ambiguity that made someone think Robert Dewar was the sole author
of the GNAT system.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Robert Dewar]

tmoran said

<<  Pardon me.  I did not mean to suggest it was a one-man project.
Robert Dewar has previously suggested, quite reasonably, that
people recomminding a product should mention their special
relationships to that product.  That mention was missing from his
recommendation of GNAT.  Since my messsage was recommending a
complementary product (Claw, which runs with GNAT among others) and
I was saying that I had worked on Claw, it seemed reasonable to add
the missing information.  Since that information was probably of
minor, though not zero, concern to the author of the original
message, I made it a two word parenthetical remark, rather than
giving a history or organization chart or annual report of ACT.
I'm sorry if that shortening was too drastic and resulted in an
ambiguity that made someone think Robert Dewar was the sole author
of the GNAT system.
>>

Excuse me, but the only message I wrote in this thread (which is you
will remember started off with a question from someone who specifically
said they were currently using GNAT) was:

<<Assuming you want to stick to Ada 95, rather than following JDI's advice
to move to Delphi, the way to proceed is to get hold of the Intermetrics
Win32 bindings. These are very close to the C bindings, so you can get
anyone of many books on these bindings to know what the routines do.
They work with both GNAT and with Object Ada. You might also want to get
the sources of AdaGIDE as an example of how these routines are used.
Martin found it quite convenient to use these bindings in creating
AdaGIDE.
>>

By what stretch of the imagination is that a "recommendation of GNAT"?

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[tmoran]

In <6bg9ac$cii@drn.zippo.com> nabbasi@earthlink.net says:
>I was shocked to see that CLAW costs $500 for one copy ?

I don't have to do with RR Software's pricing policy, but I believe:
  1) There is in fact a free demo version at www.rrsoftware.com
  2) The $500 includes support.
  3) There are site and educational discounts available.

>if you want people to start even thinking of using Ada for
>windows programming, this binding need to be FREE.
  If you know of someone who will pay programmers to write
advertising material for Ada, please let me know.  Similarly
if you would like to send me money to let me "do my thing".
Absent these, since my family insists on eating and the grocery
store insists on cash, it is necessary to charge for
software products.

> ... why would any one pay $500 to buy a binding to win32 that
>they have allready just to use Ada?
  Perhaps because CLAW is a heck of a lot easier?

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[tmoran]

In <6bg9ac$cii@drn.zippo.com> nabbasi@earthlink.net says:
>I was shocked to see that CLAW costs ...
  This thread started with a question about Windows programming and
Ada.  The TriAda paper of which I am a co-author addressed this
question.  It is now available, for no charge, via www.rrsoftware.com
Section 3 is particular may be of interest to anyone, whether they use
CLAW or not, attempting Windows programming in Ada.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Tom Moran]

> >> While waiting for that book, may I modestly suggest section 3 of
> >> "CLAW, a High Level, Portable, Ada 95 Binding for Microsoft Windows"
> >> by Randall Brukardt and myself in the TriAda '97 conference
> >> proceedings?
> 
> >Are these proceedings available on the web ?
>   Apparently not, unless ACM or SIGAda posts them somewhere.
  I'm pleased to say the answer is now Yes, and the TriAda paper on CLAW
for easier Windows from Ada is available via www.rrsoftware.com
  And thanks to Ben Brosgol for his assistance navigating the official
channels. :)

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[nabbasi]

In article <34DABB82.24BF@bix.com>, Tom says...


>for easier Windows from Ada is available via www.rrsoftware.com
>  And thanks to Ben Brosgol for his assistance navigating the official
>channels. :)

I was shocked to see that CLAW costs $500 for one copy ?

this is no way to make Ada more popular on windows. why would any one
pay $500 to buy a binding to win32 that they have allready just to use
Ada? Imagine asking a manager to sign for a order for $500 for this, when
most software manager do not even know anything about Ada.

if you want people to start even thinking of using Ada for windows programming,
this binding need to be FREE. in few years when everyone start using Ada
on windows, maybe then you can start charging more.

Nasser

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jerry van Dijk]

In article <348faacf.18643984@news.thegrid.net> xmobay@thegrid.net writes:

>jerry@jvdsys.nextjk.stuyts.nl (Jerry van Dijk) wrote:
>
>>In article <34802dfc.4229989@news.tiac.net> ichbiah@twsolutions.com writes:
>>
>>>> I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
>>>>[...] Any recommendations?
>>>
>>>Delphi
>>
>>Odd answer...
>
>Not an odd answer at all. In fact, the answer of someone whose clarity
>of thinking and expertise transcend the need to join Language Cults.

Huh ?

>For programming under Windows 95, Delphi is a far better solution than
>any Ada offering.

Actually, it is still odd since the original statements were:

1. Want to program for Win95
2. Know Ada better than C or C++
3. Now program in Ada for DOS
4. Have access to suitable Ada compilers
5. Have no experience using cross language programming

If you translate this to: I want to develop a GUI front-end application
for Win95, Delphi is indeed a suitable choice given a Ada background and
funding or availability.

If, however, you translate this as: I want to learn to program on the Win32
platform, but know Ada better then C++, than clearly Delphi is a strange
recommendation.

Given the senders background and tone, I translated to the second.

>As someone whose Ada experience precedes the release of Ada 83, I vote
>Delphi.

Didn't know this was a contest :-) but my vote goes to whatever helps the
the original author to archieve his goal best.

--

-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Consultant     | Team Ada
-- Ordina Finance | jdijk@acm.org

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jon Jensen]

I would say if you want to develop Win32 based applications which require
database support you should use Visual Basic 5.0 or Delphi 3.0.  If you
want to really learn Windows programming get Charles Petzold's Programming
Windows 95 (or Windows 3.1) and Visual C++ 5.0.

While you may be able to program Windows applications in Ada it doesn't
mean that you should - especially considering it's now legal not to.  If
you know Ada better than C++ I would agree that Delphi is the best choice
to quickly build Windows apps.

IMHO if you want to be good at Windows programming and really understand
what's going on you need to learn it from the C/C++ end.  This forces a
certain level of discipline and understanding that I have never seen from
someone who jumped into it at the VB or Delphi level (or at the Ada or
Modula-2 level).

If Borland had used Ada 95 instead of Object Pascal for Delphi ... well
that's another story.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <01bd000f$f8a452b0$baeb649b@freeman>, "Jon Jensen" <jon.jensen@hci.utah.edu> writes:

> While you may be able to program Windows applications in Ada it doesn't
> mean that you should - especially considering it's now legal not to.

Sorry, this is not comp.lang.ada.military, and since you post from a .edu
domain I don't understand why you feel there is any notion of "legal"
involved.  I have been using Ada for 9 years without a mandate.

> IMHO if you want to be good at Windows programming and really understand
> what's going on you need to learn it from the C/C++ end.  This forces a
> certain level of discipline and understanding that I have never seen from
> someone who jumped into it at the VB or Delphi level (or at the Ada or
> Modula-2 level).

While that is a fair critique of Microsoft's documentation, things need
not be that way.  Say, all you accomplished Ada authors reading this 
newsgroup -- doesn't the number of people asking Windows-specific
questions make for a larger book-buying public than those looking
to learn abstract data-structures, safety-critical programming, etc.?

I realize the courseware books are a more "pure" form of computer
science, and stooping to discuss an ugly pile of disjoint APIs may
be distasteful.  Wouldn't publishers be attracted to a title like
"Programming for Win32 in Ada" ?  Or do publishers feel any book
with Ada in the title must be something used in CS courses rather
than sold in ordinary bookstores ?

Aside from the income possibilities, you would be doing a great
thing for the popularity of Ada.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Stanley R. Allen]

Larry Kilgallen wrote:
> 
>  Wouldn't publishers be attracted to a title like
> "Programming for Win32 in Ada" ?  Or do publishers feel any book
> with Ada in the title must be something used in CS courses rather
> than sold in ordinary bookstores ?
>

I've often wished for a "programming windows with Ada" book
since I'm not a windows expert and would like to use Ada as
my learning tool.  (I bought MS C/C++ and later paid for the
upgrades to MS VC++ but just couldn't stomach it.)

If publishers are making money with things like "the Dylan
programmer's bible" then there's got to be hope for an
"Ada for Windows" book.

My suggestions for a book like this:

   1) Cover the bases; include multiple ways of doing the
      programming  (OA GUI Builder, GNAT+Win32Ada API,
      Tk/Tcl in Ada [cf. Pascal Obry], and AdaJava).

   2) Make it a super-thick low-rent all-in-one package aimed
      at the pop programming market (you know what I'm talking
      about: "Ada95 UNLEASHED for Windows Power Programmers").
      Be sure to use the word "power" at least three times on
      the back cover.  The cover is very important, and must
      be an assault on the sense of sight.  By super-thick I
      mean it should have at least 1000 pages.  Of course it
      will be a paperback, 10+ inches tall, etc.

   3) Include a CD ROM with all the latest freeware, GNUware,
      and demo stuff and plenty of examples.

   4) In the words of Tucker Taft, focus more on the "sizzle"
      than the "steak".  There are plenty of "cool" features
      in Ada (multitasking, generics, OO, rep specs), and
      plenty of people are attracted to technologies because
      they are cool.  There are even some folks who, instead
      of stodgily maintaining "I program in Ada because it's
      the best way to produce reliable software", will confess
      after a few drinks that they use Ada because it's cool.
      You might even find this kind of person in a common
      household mirror one day.

-- 
Stanley Allen
mailto:s_allen@hso.link.com

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jerry van Dijk]

In article <1997Dec4.072952.1@eisner> Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam writes:

>                 Wouldn't publishers be attracted to a title like
>"Programming for Win32 in Ada" ?  Or do publishers feel any book
>with Ada in the title must be something used in CS courses rather
>than sold in ordinary bookstores ?

If I though there was any interest, I would start writing tonight, but...

--

-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Consultant     | Team Ada
-- Ordina Finance | jdijk@acm.org

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Michael F Brenner]

    >> Publish ... "Programming for Win32 in Ada" ?
     > If I though there was any interest, I would start 
     > writing tonight, 
     >            -- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
     >            -- Consultant     | Team Ada

I am ready to order your book, that you are going to start
writing tonight!  

Mike Brenner
Member, Comp.Lang.Ada

                                       

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Tom Moran]

>I am ready to order your book, that you are going to start
>writing tonight!  
While waiting for that book, may I modestly suggest section 3 of
"CLAW, a High Level, Portable, Ada 95 Binding for Microsoft Windows"
by Randall Brukardt and myself in the TriAda '97 conference
proceedings?

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Richard Toy]

Tom Moran wrote:
> 

> While waiting for that book, may I modestly suggest section 3 of
> "CLAW, a High Level, Portable, Ada 95 Binding for Microsoft Windows"
> by Randall Brukardt and myself in the TriAda '97 conference
> proceedings?

Are these proceedings available on the web ?

-- 
Regards
Richard Toy

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Tom Moran]

>> While waiting for that book, may I modestly suggest section 3 of
>> "CLAW, a High Level, Portable, Ada 95 Binding for Microsoft Windows"
>> by Randall Brukardt and myself in the TriAda '97 conference
>> proceedings?

>Are these proceedings available on the web ?
  Apparently not, unless ACM or SIGAda posts them somewhere.  I
believe there is a clause in the agreement specifically allowing
"limited non-commercial" posting, as long as the ACM copyright notice
is included, etc.  A web site doesn't sound very limited.  Sorry.
Guess you'll have to wait for that book after all.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[tmoran]

In <dewar.880850506@merv> Robert Dewar said:
> > I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
> to move to Delphi, the way to proceed is to get hold of the Intermetrics
> Win32 bindings. These are very close to the C bindings, so you can get
  Or, if you'd rather use an Ada style binding instead of learning C and
how to do callbacks and tasking in the absence of OO, general tasking
support, or the other things that make Ada better than C, you might look
at CLAW, which runs with Janus, Gnat 3.10p1 (Dewar's compiler), and
(hopefully) with the soon to be relased ObjectAda 7.1.1   A demo version,
with sample programs, is available at www.rrsoftware.com   Note: I helped
create CLAW and have a bias toward thinking it's a good thing. ;)

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Robert Dewar]

tmoran said

<<Gnat 3.10p1 (Dewar's compiler)
>>

GNAT is not "Dewar's compiler", it is a compiler originally written at NYU
under contract to the DoD, and more recently greatly enhanced and supported
by Ada Core Technologies. ACT has a team of over ten full time engineers
devoted to improving and maintaining this compiler. It is by no means
a one-person project!

Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Mike Willour]

Hi,

I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.  It seems that
most of the source materials are written using C or C++.  My Ada is
much stronger than my C, I am currently using the GNAT compiler for
MS-DOS, although Object Ada from Aonix(?) is avaiable at the
university where I am taking classes. Also I don't have any experience
with mixed language programming. Any recommendations?

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jean Ichbiah]

On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:08:07 GMT, willour@ssi.parlorcity.com (Mike
Willour) wrote:

> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95. 
>[...] Any recommendations?

Delphi



Jean Ichbiah
Textware Solutions
ichbiah@twsolutions.com
http://www.twsolutions.com

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Robert Dewar]

On Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:08:07 GMT, willour@ssi.parlorcity.com (Mike
Willour) wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
>[...] Any recommendations?


Assuming you want to stick to Ada 95, rather than following JDI's advice
to move to Delphi, the way to proceed is to get hold of the Intermetrics
Win32 bindings. These are very close to the C bindings, so you can get
anyone of many books on these bindings to know what the routines do.
They work with both GNAT and with Object Ada. You might also want to get
the sources of AdaGIDE as an example of how these routines are used.
Martin found it quite convenient to use these bindings in creating
AdaGIDE.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jean Ichbiah]

On 29 Nov 1997 19:44:57 -0500, dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar)
wrote:

>> > I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
>> >[...] Any recommendations?

> >Delphi 

Hello Robert,

I made a colossal mistake: Of course I should have written:

" Delphi :) " 

With regards to your suggestion:

> Assuming you want to stick to Ada 95, rather than following JDI's advice
> to move to Delphi, the way to proceed is to get hold of the Intermetrics
> Win32 bindings. These are very close to the C bindings, so you can get
> anyone of many books on these bindings to know what the routines do.
> They work with both GNAT and with Object Ada. 

The trouble is that hardly anybody develops applications
at this level.  Most Windows programming is done with
visual programming which is not addressed by these
bindings.  Then, of the tools available, Delphi is certainly
the closest to the Ada philosophy. (It would have been
a complete profanity to suggest Visual C++ or Visual Basic.)

If you have large algorithmic chunks you can still write them
in Ada 95 and have them called from the Delphi application.

You see, the original question was apparently from a student,
and would'nt it be somewhat misleading to recommend the
Intermetric's level of approach for developing a Windows 95
application? Doing a Windows application has to do with 
setting up a frame for responding to events and most of
this is done with the use of existing Win 95 components.




Jean Ichbiah
Textware Solutions
ichbiah@twsolutions.com
http://www.twsolutions.com

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3481d496.2503720@news.tiac.net>, ichbiah@twsolutions.com (Jean Ichbiah) writes:

> The trouble is that hardly anybody develops applications
> at this level.  Most Windows programming is done with
> visual programming which is not addressed by these
> bindings.  Then, of the tools available, Delphi is certainly
> the closest to the Ada philosophy. (It would have been
> a complete profanity to suggest Visual C++ or Visual Basic.)

Although thick-binding approaches are easier when adequate,
there seems to be quite a market for thin-binding approaches
based on the number of C-centric books which attempt to explain
the Windows programming environment at the low level.

Use of thin bindings often come up when thick bindings are not
adequate.   I think the original question points up a significant
lack in available Ada books -- one cannot learn the details of 
the Microsoft APIs without knowing C.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Robert Dewar]

Jean said

<<You see, the original question was apparently from a student,
and would'nt it be somewhat misleading to recommend the
Intermetric's level of approach for developing a Windows 95
application? Doing a Windows application has to do with
setting up a frame for responding to events and most of
this is done with the use of existing Win 95 components.>>

Actually I think it is valuable for students to study this level of
interface at some point. For more general programming, I think that
looking at Tcl/Tk makes a lot of sense. A number of people find that
it is preferable to program at this level, than to use GUI tools which
may not do exactly what you want in any case.

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Jerry van Dijk]

In article <34802dfc.4229989@news.tiac.net> ichbiah@twsolutions.com writes:

>> I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
>>[...] Any recommendations?
>
>Delphi

Odd answer...

Other answer:

1) Get a book on Windows programming, use OA, learn the GUI builder.

or

2) Get a book on Windows programming, use GNAT, install the Win32 binding.

No need for mixed language programming.

--

-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Consultant     | Team Ada
-- Ordina Finance | jdijk@acm.org

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Pascal Obry]

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[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1535 bytes --]


Or learn Tk/Tcl for the GUI and use GNAT for the core
of your project.

I find Tk/Tcl much more a productive tool than a GUI builder !

Pascal.

--

--|------------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                               Team-Ada Member |
--|                                                           |
--| EDF-DER-IPN-SID- Ing�nierie des Syst�mes d'Informations   |
--|                                                           |
--| Bureau G1-010           e-mail: pascal.obry@der.edfgdf.fr |
--| 1 Av G�n�ral de Gaulle  voice : +33-1-47.65.50.91         |
--| 92141 Clamart CEDEX     fax   : +33-1-47.65.50.07         |
--| FRANCE                                                    |
--|------------------------------------------------------------
--|
--|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pascal_obry
--|
--|   "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Jerry van Dijk a �crit dans le message
<880863536.86snx@jvdsys.nextjk.stuyts.nl>...
>In article <34802dfc.4229989@news.tiac.net> ichbiah@twsolutions.com writes:
>
>>> I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.
>>>[...] Any recommendations?
>>
>>Delphi
>
>Odd answer...
>
>Other answer:
>
>1) Get a book on Windows programming, use OA, learn the GUI builder.
>
>or
>
>2) Get a book on Windows programming, use GNAT, install the Win32 binding.
>
>No need for mixed language programming.
>
>--
>
>-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
>-- Consultant     | Team Ada
>-- Ordina Finance | jdijk@acm.org

Re: Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Pascal Obry]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3104 bytes --]


Al Christians a �crit dans le message <34833E36.5C47@easystreet.com>...
>Pascal Obry wrote:
>> Or learn Tk/Tcl for the GUI and use GNAT for the core
>> of your project.
>> I find Tk/Tcl much more a productive tool than a GUI builder !
>>
>> Pascal.
>>
>
>
>Do you see any use for the GUI builders that work with Tk/Tcl?
>(Visual Tcl or SpecTcl)
>

It is very usefull to make quick applications but you must distribute
the Tcl sources of your application to your client. The only fix here
would be to translate the Tcl sources in C (tcl2c) but I have no
experiences with that.

And anyway Tk/Tcl is a so hight-level language for GUI that coding
directly in Tk/Tcl is not a problem for productivity. But I think that
a GUI builder like SpecTcl or VisualTcl is very good to make quick
prototype to show something to a client.

>Do you have Ada working with any of the enhancements to Tcl
>that are freely available (Tix, any of the OO extensions, SWIG,
>plus patches, megawidgets, or whatnot)?
>

No. Only with plus patches because it is genuine Tk/Tcl with less bugs.

>Can you offer any more info on how you have done this and how well
>it works?
>

It works very well. The first time I try Tk/Tck with Ada was by passing
messages
between Ada and Tcl. The Tcl script open the executable (pipe mode) and
read/write the standard input/output to exchange messages. This works fine
be suffer of some problems :
    - you must provide the Tcl sources.
    - it is cumbersome if you want to handle many callbacks.
    - not very elegant anyway

The best way it to embed the Tcl/Tk interface into your application. For
this
you can use the TASH binding. It is not complete but you can extend it very
easyly. It makes a "standalone" executable from the point of view of your
application, the people who want to use it must still have Tk/Tcl installed
into
the system.

The very important point about Tk/Tcl is that it is plateform independant.
The very same application will run under Windows 95/NT or UNIX (and
should also run under Machintosh but I have not experiences with this).

Ada is very portable, Tk/Tcl too - both in the same application bring us
with a very powerfull cross-plateform development environment. No
it's not a dream, it's reallity !

>TIA
>
>Al

Hope this helps,
Pascal.

PS : I don't work for Sun :-)

--
--|------------------------------------------------------------
--| Pascal Obry                               Team-Ada Member |
--|                                                           |
--| EDF-DER-IPN-SID- Ing�nierie des Syst�mes d'Informations   |
--|                                                           |
--| Bureau G1-010           e-mail: pascal.obry@der.edfgdf.fr |
--| 1 Av G�n�ral de Gaulle  voice : +33-1-47.65.50.91         |
--| 92141 Clamart CEDEX     fax   : +33-1-47.65.50.07         |
--| FRANCE                                                    |
--|------------------------------------------------------------
--|
--|   http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pascal_obry
--|
--|   "The best way to travel is by means of imagination"

Learning Windows 95 programming with Ada?

[Mike Willour]

Hi,

I'd like to learn to do programming for Windows 95.  It seems that
most of the source materials are written using C or C++.  My Ada is
much stronger than my C, I am currently using the GNAT compiler for
MS-DOS, although Object Ada from Aonix(?) is avaiable at the
university where I am taking classes. Also I don't have any experience
with mixed language programming. Any recommendations?