Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[clines@delete_this.airmail.net (Kevin Cline)]

Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com> wrote:

>Kevin Cline wrote:
>> 
>> Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
>> >Fair enough.  I'd agree in principle with what you are getting at in
>> >reference to "grade-grubbers".  There are slackers out there just
>> >interested in doing enough to get by.  However, too many people
>> >automatically associate that attitude with bad grades.
>> 
>> Let me make myself perfectly clear.  I believe there is little correlation
>> between GPA and the ability to do software development.  However, even the
>> most open-minded organization is going to deselect candidates with GPA's
>> below some minimum standard.
>
>I would agree 100% with that.  My resume was summarily rejected at
>several companies because of an arbitrary GPA minimum that I didn't
>meet.
>
>> > I've never
>> >gotten really good grades in any of the classwork I've done and yet I've
>> >probably gotten more out of the classes than the average person.
>> 
>> That's exactly what I meant to say.  I don't want to hire people whose sole
>> goal in attending is to get an A on their transcript.
>
>I know far too many people like that.  I wouldn't want to work with
>them.
>
>> >Fortunately, I've been in the business long enough to prove I'm no
>> >slacker.
>> 
>> It's definitely easier to judge those with professional experience.
>
>So how do students prove they have real technical ability?  Probably the
>way I did.  Get a job in the college computer center and do well in ACM
>programming contests.  Having those two things on my resume opened quite
>a few doors.

There is no doubt that a graduating student with successful work experience in
the field is much more attractive.

>> I agree completely.  That is why I make all candidates actually write code at
>> a whiteboard.
>
>I'd love to see how some of the candidates crack under that kind of
>pressure.  "You mean I actually have to write real code?!?"

I ask them to code a 15-line function that requires two nested loops.
Most people claim to know C, but almost any language is acceptable.
If they can come reasonably close to a solution,  I ask them to tell me the
run-time complexity of their function.

Once, a few years ago, the candidate reported to his head-hunter that I was
unfairly trying to get him to do free work during the interview!

>
>> I'm sorry.  You were poorly instructed.  I was fortunate enough to attend a
>> private university, and the pace was quite challenging.
>
>I went to a private college where the pace was barely noticable...  As a
>result, I took advantage of the free time to teach myself most of what I
>know.
>
>> >How have they lasted in their positions to get any experience if they
>> >don't know fundamental data structures?  And did you at least try to
>> >teach them what they needed to know?
>> 
>> It's hard to instruct those more senior and more highly paid.  It's was much
>> more rewarding to move to an organization with higher standards.
>
>Personally, I would have loved the challenge.  Teaching people without
>them realizing it is not easy, but it can be done.

Yes, but in the meantime, I get tired of cleaning up after them.

>I'm not talking about throwing together a few components to make a
>trivial system, I'm talking about the judgement it takes to design
>complex systems and understand when you've gotten it right.  

We're disagreeing on terms.  To me, designing complex systems that work
requires a combination of creativity, technique, and judgment.  Problem
solving skills are a combination of creativity and technique.  Judgment
basically comes into play when selecting alternative solutions to the same
problem.