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From: paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (Paul Johnson)
Subject: Design problems (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?)
Date: 5 Dec 94 10:19:34 GMT
Date: 1994-12-05T10:19:34+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <6010@gec-mrc.co.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: EACHUS.94Dec2151104@spectre.mitre.org

Robert I. Eachus (eachus@spectre.mitre.org) wrote:
> In article <5994@gec-mrc.co.uk> paj@gec-mrc.co.uk (Paul Johnson) writes:

>  > We were also using a library versioning system, and of course this
>  > basic stuff was in a library.  So when you changed it, everything
>  > else had to be recompiled.  What with all the other book-keeping
>  > associated with making a change, it held up the project for a full
>  > day.

>    This is Ada trying to tell you something, learn to listen.

Yeah.  I know.  But I was working as contract labour on that project
so my opinions counted for zilch.

This wasn't just the dimension libraries.  All the data structure
libraries suffered from this.  The analysis document contained Data
Flow Diagrams and the bubbles communicated through types defined in a
Data Dictionary.  So all the data types were implemented in low-level
library packages for access by the procedures that implemented the
bubbles.  Every time a data type needed to be added or modified, a
low-level package had to be checked out, and this triggered a
recompile of everything above.  C and C++ suffer from similar problems
in "include" files.

If they had taken an "object based" approach to low level design
(packaging up data structures with the relevant operations) then
things would have been different.  But structured analysis doesn't
group things like that, so they didn't either.

To be fair, the management knew this was a problem as well, but they
were well into the lifecycle by then (this was the Version 2 release),
so the design was pretty much cast in concrete.

We were also working with two compilers (development platform and
target platform), one of which had a bug that caused it to reject the
dimension libraries.  So one version was coded with subtypes and one
with ranges.  Most of the time we managed to produce code that worked
with both, but not always.  So then some arbitrary module halfway up
the hierarchy had to have a version forked off and separately
maintained.  We had a paper-based change-control system running, and
we certainly needed it.

This was the first Ada project by this team.  They commented that
next time they used Ada they would know how to do it right.  But by
then something else would be flavour-of-the-year, and they would be
back at the bottom of the learning curve again.

I will say that, despite the problems, we produced code on-time and
on-budget.  It was expensive code, but we knew ahead of time how much
it would cost.  Code was reviewed before being checked back into the
development version, so the bug rate was fairly low.  It was just that
some bugs were very expensive.

Paul.

-- 
Paul Johnson            | GEC-Marconi Ltd is not responsible for my opinions. |
+44 245 473331 ext 3245 +-----------+-----------------------------------------+
Work: <paj@gec-mrc.co.uk>           | You are lost in a twisty maze of little
Home: <Paul@treetop.demon.co.uk>    | standards, all different.



  reply	other threads:[~1994-12-05 10:19 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 244+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1994-11-14  4:17 Why don't large companies use Ada? Jamie Jamison
1994-11-14 14:19 ` R. William Beckwith
1994-11-14 22:07   ` Jeff Reinholz
1994-11-15  2:36     ` R. William Beckwith
1994-11-18 22:19     ` Christopher K. Krebs
1994-11-19 17:44       ` Jean D. Ichbiah
1994-11-20  7:09         ` R. William Beckwith
1994-11-20 17:18           ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-20 17:21           ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-20 23:32             ` Cyrille Comar
1994-11-21 15:02             ` R. William Beckwith
1994-11-20 23:37           ` Jean D. Ichbiah
1994-11-21  2:20             ` David Weller
1994-11-23 23:19               ` Jean D. Ichbiah
1994-11-21 14:53             ` R. William Beckwith
1994-11-22 13:56               ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-23 23:40               ` Jean D. Ichbiah
1994-11-22 20:08         ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-21 10:35       ` David Emery
1994-11-14 23:04   ` Robert Temple
1994-11-16 14:14     ` Doug Robertson
1994-11-16 22:38       ` STOP!!! (WAS: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Q Vincent Yin
1994-11-18  0:53         ` Dean Souleles
1994-11-18 13:29         ` Norman H. Cohen
1994-11-16 23:47       ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Robert Dewar
1994-11-23  3:03         ` mat
1994-11-17  3:05       ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-17  3:07       ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-17 19:50       ` Robert C. Lokerson
1994-11-18  3:48         ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-22 16:43       ` James Hopper
1994-11-25 18:32         ` Carlos Perez
1994-11-25 20:26           ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-28  8:47             ` Tarjei Jensen
1994-11-28 16:23               ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-29  5:49                 ` Matt Kennel
1994-11-29 17:11                   ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-29  9:42                 ` Tarjei Jensen
1994-11-29 15:42                 ` Dave Vernest
1994-11-30 15:36                   ` Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen TF.DT/DELAB
1994-11-30 16:46                   ` An Amoeba
1994-11-30 17:39                     ` Jules
1994-11-30 14:05                       ` David Emery
1994-12-01  2:48                         ` R. William Beckwith
1994-12-04 15:06                           ` John Goodsen
1994-12-05  5:04                             ` R. William Beckwith
1994-12-02 15:18                       ` Akopov Mikhail
1994-12-05 14:52                         ` Jules
1994-12-07 20:18                       ` Ada as intro language un033144
1994-12-07 20:25                         ` un033144
1994-12-09  3:05                         ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-01  1:04                     ` Why don't large companies use Ada? David Weller
1994-12-01 14:16                     ` Robert I. Eachus
1994-12-01 22:29                     ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-02  7:57                       ` Scott McLoughlin
1994-12-02 16:50                         ` Andrew Koenig
1994-12-02 10:32                       ` Robert I. Eachus
1994-12-02 22:57                         ` Mike Chapman
1994-12-05 15:59                           ` Norman H. Cohen
1994-12-10 17:37                           ` D'Arcy J.M. Cain
1994-12-11  2:08                             ` M. J. Saltzman
1994-12-11 17:43                             ` Andrew Koenig
1994-12-15 18:06                               ` John Goodsen
1994-12-12 12:58                             ` Con Bradley
1994-12-12 21:13                               ` Ian S Nelson
1994-12-13 10:44                               ` Ross Mather
1994-12-14 16:17                                 ` Peter Seebach
1994-12-03 11:07                       ` Markus Freericks
1994-12-05 16:43                       ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1994-12-05 21:51                         ` Bart_van_der_Worp
1994-12-07 17:49                           ` Chris Dollin
1994-12-08 23:50                             ` Bart_van_der_Worp
1994-12-09  0:07                         ` Alistair James Robert Young
1994-12-09 12:47                           ` Jules
1994-12-10 16:29                             ` Brian Stern
1994-12-13 16:52                             ` Pete Gontier
1994-12-16 19:53                               ` Dr. Richard Botting
1994-12-09 19:15                           ` Robert Firth
1994-12-05 16:43                       ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1994-12-03  9:49                     ` Stephen Benson
1994-12-04 22:59                       ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-30 17:26                   ` Jules
1994-11-30 20:17                   ` Norman H. Cohen
1994-12-05 21:54                     ` Stef Van Vlierberghe
1994-12-06  7:33                       ` Geens Ronald
1994-12-07 20:02                       ` Jules
1994-12-02 17:17                   ` Tucker Taft
     [not found]                 ` <house.786178243@helios>
1994-11-30 23:01                   ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-01 20:35                     ` Matt Kennel
1994-12-04 22:16                       ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-08 14:27                         ` gamache
1994-12-09 10:27                           ` Peter Hermann
1994-12-02  8:23                     ` Paul Johnson
1994-12-02 15:11                       ` Robert I. Eachus
1994-12-05 10:19                         ` Paul Johnson [this message]
1994-12-07  9:48                       ` Stephen J Bevan
1994-12-08  8:16                         ` Paul Johnson
1994-11-30 23:10                   ` Richard Riehle
1994-12-01  3:14                   ` Michael Coburn
1994-12-02 23:46                     ` Bob Duff
1994-12-05 15:08                       ` Jules
1994-12-05 19:10                         ` Bob Duff
1994-12-06 20:10                         ` Physical Types (was Why don't large companies use Ada?) Mike Chapman
1994-12-10 17:38                           ` John Barton
1994-12-01 21:02                   ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Robert Dewar
1994-12-02 21:36                     ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-03 18:06                       ` Strong numeric type checking Tucker Taft
1994-12-03 18:44                       ` Why don't large companies use Ada? David Weller
1994-12-05 15:37                       ` Norman H. Cohen
1994-12-05 16:11                         ` M. J. Saltzman
1994-12-06  2:37                           ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-06 12:33                             ` M. J. Saltzman
1994-12-06 15:30                               ` Arne Dehli Halvorsen
1994-12-05 19:14                         ` Bob Duff
1994-12-06 13:22                         ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-06 17:14                           ` Mark S. Hathaway
1994-12-13 21:47                             ` Spaces in Fortran (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Michael D Shapiro
1994-12-05 15:23                     ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Norman H. Cohen
1994-12-05 23:48                       ` Thomas M. Breuel
1994-12-01 21:11                   ` Sten Drescher
1994-11-28 14:00             ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-28 14:02             ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-28 14:27               ` Robert I. Eachus
1994-11-29  4:05                 ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-29 18:24                   ` IanMaclure
1994-11-30 16:26                     ` David Weller
1994-12-01 21:24                       ` Robert Dewar
1994-11-30 22:13                     ` COBOL origin (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Michael D Shapiro
1994-12-12  3:06                       ` COBOL origin Wayne Dernoncourt
1994-12-12 11:45                       ` COBOL origin (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Robert I. Eachus
1994-12-14 20:50                       ` Dr. Richard Botting
1994-11-30  8:41                   ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Paul Johnson
1994-11-30 23:07                     ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-30 19:53                   ` Davidson Corry
1994-11-30 20:15                   ` Richard Riehle
1994-12-01 15:28                     ` Paige Vinall
1994-12-02  5:25                     ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-02 21:45                       ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-03  5:43                         ` Keith Thompson
1994-12-04 22:39                           ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-05 22:57                             ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-06  2:48                               ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-08  4:10                                 ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-06  3:29                             ` Keith Thompson
1994-12-08 10:49                               ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-08 10:51                               ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-09  1:50                                 ` Keith Thompson
1994-12-09  3:16                                 ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-09 18:30                                   ` Fortran Arrays was: " Richard Riehle
1994-12-09 23:26                                     ` Richard Riehle
1994-12-10 13:50                                   ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-10 13:51                                   ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-06  4:53                             ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1994-12-07  0:46                               ` Robin Vowels
1994-12-07  0:49                               ` Robin Vowels
1994-12-05  0:03                           ` Matt Kennel
1994-12-05 22:59                             ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-06  2:51                               ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-07  5:46                                 ` Kenneth Almquist
1994-12-08  4:11                                 ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-08 17:52                                   ` iSUB in PL/I (was: Re: Why don't large <you-know-whats> use <you-know what>?) Norman H. Cohen
1994-12-10  1:36                                     ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-10 14:07                                     ` Robin Vowels
1994-12-03 21:09                       ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Paige Vinall
1994-12-06  7:16                         ` Richard Riehle
1994-12-07 17:46                           ` David Kehs
1994-12-08 10:48                           ` Robert Dewar
1994-12-07 18:23                   ` Bob Dalgleish
1994-11-30  9:51             ` Andre Spiegel
1994-11-30 22:19               ` greg harvey
1994-11-30 23:08               ` Michael Feldman
1994-12-04 15:32                 ` the X rule (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?) John Goodsen
1994-11-15  4:15   ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Brian J. Zimbelman
1994-11-15  9:40     ` David Emery
1994-11-15 16:17       ` Martijn Dekker
1994-11-15 21:03         ` Stop posting Ada stuff to oracle group! Logicon RDA
1994-11-17 20:39         ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Doug Robertson
1994-11-18  4:54           ` Scott McLoughlin
1994-11-18  9:12             ` Peter Hermann
1994-11-18 20:43           ` Hugh Miles
1994-11-22  8:36             ` Paul Johnson
1994-11-23 15:30             ` Object-Oriented Concepts (was: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Jules
1994-11-24 10:19               ` R. Kerr
1994-11-23 20:04           ` What is OO (Was " Don Vick
1994-11-24 10:48             ` R. Kerr
1994-12-06 17:06               ` Sergio R. Sigrist
1994-11-24 16:15             ` Paul Johnson
1994-11-26 10:10               ` What is OO (Was Enough crap about Ada already!) David Weller
1994-11-27 11:58               ` What is OO (Was Why don't large companies use Ada?) Andrew Dunstan
1994-11-29 13:50                 ` Igor Chudov
1994-11-30 17:10                   ` David J Hopwood
1994-11-29 15:48                 ` Shawn Willden
1994-11-29 16:13                   ` Question about class destructors...Easy??? Roy J. Davis
1994-11-30 13:18                     ` zhebu
1994-11-30 14:57                     ` Hartmut Kocher US/ESA 60/1L/2? #5629
1994-11-30 16:53                     ` Chamundi Sabanathan
1994-12-02  6:41                     ` \x01
1994-12-02 13:06                       ` zhebu
1994-12-03 23:13                       ` Steve Clamage
1994-11-30 23:26                   ` What is OO (Was Why don't large companies use Ada?) Robert Dewar
1994-11-23 22:16           ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Gerrit Thomson
1994-11-24  1:23             ` Todd Dunnavant
1994-11-26 16:49               ` Jules
1994-11-30 15:27                 ` John Goodsen
1994-11-16 13:37       ` Why don't we take this thread to Ada and c only? Michael R. Fronheiser
1994-11-21 19:12       ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Jules
1994-11-23 17:25         ` Gary McKee
1994-11-25 14:16           ` Jules
1994-12-30 18:20       ` gjong
1994-11-15 11:55     ` David Weller
1994-11-15 14:34       ` Steven Whatley
1994-11-15 16:06         ` David Weller
1994-11-16 17:51           ` Tony Langdon
1994-11-17  5:04         ` Carlos Perez
1994-11-15 20:39       ` Brian J. Zimbelman
1994-11-16  4:58       ` Dan Thies
1994-11-16 18:21         ` Pete Gontier
1994-11-17 16:54           ` Dirk Broer
1994-11-15 15:56     ` Erland Sommarskog
1994-11-16 17:32       ` James A. Krzyzanowski
1994-11-16 23:04         ` Weiqi Gao
1994-11-19 19:07           ` Jules
1994-11-19 18:43   ` Jules
1994-11-19 19:38     ` Alistair James Robert Young
1994-11-23 15:40       ` Jules
1994-11-24 15:28         ` Alistair James Robert Young
1994-11-24 21:07           ` Brian Duff
1994-11-25  8:28             ` Why don't large companies use Paradox? Nathan Hand
1994-11-30 11:49               ` Tres Seaver
1994-12-02  2:39               ` Jesse C. Wang
1994-11-27 11:55           ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Andrew Dunstan
1994-11-29 17:09             ` Teaching (was: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Michael Feldman
1994-12-06 15:53               ` Jack Beidler
1994-12-06 19:32                 ` Andrew Koenig
1994-12-13 11:19                 ` mat
1994-12-01  3:10             ` s-algol Alistair James Robert Young
1994-12-02 14:09               ` s-algol Robert Dewar
     [not found]           ` <3b2 <cwang.118.0037EF1E@mailbox.syr.edu>
1994-12-03  0:00             ` Why don't large companies use Paradox? wesley
1994-11-22 21:50     ` Ada/Pascal (was Re: Why don't large companies use Ada?) Davidson Corry
1994-11-23 19:43       ` Stefan Tilkov
1994-11-23 23:19         ` Michael Feldman
1994-11-24  6:31           ` Keith Thompson
1994-11-25 13:19         ` John English
1994-11-16  5:04 ` Why don't large companies use Ada? Dan Thies
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