Re: Any research putting c above ada?

[shea@blue.seas.upenn.edu (Dan Shea)]

Kevin Cline (clines@delete_this.airmail.net) wrote:
: Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com> wrote:

: >Kevin Cline wrote:
: >> 
: >> Roy Grimm <ragrimm@cca.rockwell.com> wrote:
: >> >Fair enough.  I'd agree in principle with what you are getting at in
: >> >reference to "grade-grubbers".  There are slackers out there just
: >> >interested in doing enough to get by.  However, too many people
: >> >automatically associate that attitude with bad grades.
: >> 
: >> Let me make myself perfectly clear.  I believe there is little correlation
: >> between GPA and the ability to do software development.  However, even the
: >> most open-minded organization is going to deselect candidates with GPA's
: >> below some minimum standard.
: >
: >I would agree 100% with that.  My resume was summarily rejected at
: >several companies because of an arbitrary GPA minimum that I didn't
: >meet.
: >
: >> > I've never
: >> >gotten really good grades in any of the classwork I've done and yet I've
: >> >probably gotten more out of the classes than the average person.
: >> 
: >> That's exactly what I meant to say. I don't want to hire people whose sole
: >> goal in attending is to get an A on their transcript.
: >

Amen.  I sit in class with a bunch of people who are in CS primarily
because it "looks good".  They are also getting business degrees.  What
scares me is these are the same people I may have to deal with when
they are managers!  What pisses me off the most (pardon the language)
is that people assume they are getting the same degree as me.  The
term CS major is far too lose.  I am receiving an Engineering degree,
while they are getting an applied science or BA.  There is a world of
difference between the two.

: >I know far too many people like that.  I wouldn't want to work with
: >them.
: >
: >> >Fortunately, I've been in the business long enough to prove I'm no
: >> >slacker.
: >> 
: >> It's definitely easier to judge those with professional experience.
: >
: >So how do students prove they have real technical ability?  Probably the
: >way I did.  Get a job in the college computer center and do well in ACM
: >programming contests.  Having those two things on my resume opened quite
: >a few doors.

Get an internship.  Shows you have real world experience and can
perform in the "real world" (tm).

: There is no doubt that a graduating student with successful work experience in
: the field is much more attractive.


Indeed.

: >> I agree completely.  That is why I make all candidates actually write code at
: >> a whiteboard.
: >
: >I'd love to see how some of the candidates crack under that kind of
: >pressure.  "You mean I actually have to write real code?!?"

=)  If they crack, they aren't worth hiring.  I *expect* to be asked
to perform either an analytical problem or write some code to show I
have two brain cells to rub together.

: I ask them to code a 15-line function that requires two nested loops.
: Most people claim to know C, but almost any language is acceptable.
: If they can come reasonably close to a solution,  I ask them to tell me the
: run-time complexity of their function.

Maybe I am not reading this right.  You basically tell them to write
bubblesort? O(n^2)
Or do you give them a problem and say, write a double nested for loop
solution?  Either way, I don't see why.  Something a little trickier
perhaps, but even a first year undergrad should know the above.

Most OPIM majors here (laughable parody of what programming should be
for business majors) can't implement a simple linked list data
structure.  I remeber a friend who had this as his final project.  Not
only did I have to give him some reading material, but he spent alot
of time writing some very "interesting" code.

: Once, a few years ago, the candidate reported to his head-hunter that I was
: unfairly trying to get him to do free work during the interview!

heheheh...did he have an Econ degree as well.  =)

: >
: >> I'm sorry.  You were poorly instructed.  I was fortunate enough to attend a
: >> private university, and the pace was quite challenging.
: >
: >I went to a private college where the pace was barely noticable...  As a
: >result, I took advantage of the free time to teach myself most of what I
: >know.
: >
: >> >How have they lasted in their positions to get any experience if they
: >> >don't know fundamental data structures?  And did you at least try to
: >> >teach them what they needed to know?
: >> 
: >> It's hard to instruct those more senior and more highly paid.  It's was much
: >> more rewarding to move to an organization with higher standards.
: >
: >Personally, I would have loved the challenge.  Teaching people without
: >them realizing it is not easy, but it can be done.

: Yes, but in the meantime, I get tired of cleaning up after them.

: >I'm not talking about throwing together a few components to make a
: >trivial system, I'm talking about the judgement it takes to design
: >complex systems and understand when you've gotten it right.  

: We're disagreeing on terms.  To me, designing complex systems that work
: requires a combination of creativity, technique, and judgment.  Problem
: solving skills are a combination of creativity and technique.  Judgment
: basically comes into play when selecting alternative solutions to the same
: problem.

I am tired of seeing these Econ spouting BAS in CS people claiming
they know how to solve real world problems.  Half of them can't even
program, and the other half are to busy bitching about their grades to
even comprehend what a real world problem is.

I have to agree that if you want an Engineer who is going to be useful
in the real world, then education is laughable.  I know, I am getting
reamed for 40k a year so I can have my "Ivy League" tm degree.

Fortunately I like theory as well as solving "real" problems and I
look forward to continuing my education.  And when I do get my "real"
job I plan on readily admitting not to know everything, but I do plan
on being willing to learn.  Yes that rare quality of humility is very
important to have when Engineering is at stake.  In the "real" world I
know fully well the crap code I can use in academia is not going to
cut it. But that...is another story...
It is great to see some people who share some like ideas.  My GPA is
not stellar, but then again, I never have seen GPA as being indicative
to being a good engineer.
--
... Any resemblance between the above views and those of my employer,
my terminal, or the view out my window are purely coincidental.  Any
resemblance between the above and my own views is non-deterministic.
The question of the existence of views in the absence of anyone to hold
them is left as an exercise for the reader.  The question of the
existence of the reader is left as an exercise for the second god
coefficient.  (A discussion of non-orthogonal, non-integral polytheism
is beyond the scope of this article.)