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From: jws@tiac.net (Jeffrey W. Stulin)
Subject: Re: Trust but verify (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract
Date: 1997/03/28
Date: 1997-03-28T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <5hfdh8$b7d@news-central.tiac.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 333AB895.1459@lmtas.lmco.com

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Hi there:

As my father is fond of saying "You�ve got to play the percentages." By 
this he simply means that while nothing in life is guaranteed, it is 
still a good idea to attempt to arrange matters to give them the best 
opportunity of working out in your favor. And that is the answer to 
Ken�s questions.

If the Ariane software engineers had the reuse mindset, NOT the specific 
mechanisms of Eiffel, but the design by contract reuse mindset, then 
they MAY have written the assertion, and MAY have noticed, while 
integrating the modules, that the assertion would not have been met.

I often specify "impossible" assertions because, human nature being what 
it is, the impossible will happen, and it is exactly these non intuitive 
circumstances which cause the most trouble.

Now 95% of what Ken has stated about testing and so forth is perfectly 
correct. And indeed there is no guarantee that the MAYs above would have 
come to pass. However, it is not unreasonable to speculate that if the 
integrators had been trained with emphasis on the problems of reuse, the 
specification error might have been found. Perhaps likely to be found is 
a bit strong, but I don�t find that stretch much of a sin.

 Furthermore, the papers primary between-the-lines claim, that we better 
learn a reuse mindset since we are (finally) entering the age of 
software reuse, and that the penalties for a reuse error could be 
disastrous, is not a stretch at all. It is simple common sense.

I also find little fault with the implied notion that Eiffel is the 
language which would have had the best chance of finding this particular 
error. My reasoning is simple:  Eiffel is a thin surface for an idea, 
the idea of how to specify and reuse software (design by contract etc.). 
That�s what Eiffel is. Now there may be many areas where Ada would have 
strengths in solving problems and Eiffel would fall flat on its face. 
But not on issues of software reuse. Eiffel is simply the best.

Finally, I have no problem with Ken�s Putting BM & Co. feet to the 
flames. I enjoy seeing ideas stress tested and especially enjoy reading 
about the practical view of those involved in a particular industry. I 
do, however, object to Ken�s tone in some of his postings. As a reader I 
feel that I am being shouted at, and I don�t like it. Please keep 
posting Ken, but post calmer.


Thanks,

Jeffrey W. Stulin 

   









  parent reply	other threads:[~1997-03-28  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 247+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1997-03-15  0:00 Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00 ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00 ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Chris Brand
1997-03-23  0:00 ` the one and only real true kibo
     [not found] ` <tz8ohcjv7cc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-16  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jean-Marc Jezequel
     [not found]       ` <tz8913l930b.fsf_-_@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war Roedy Green
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Gavin Collings
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Please do not start a language war (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
     [not found]         ` <199703190839.JAA02652@stormbringer.irisa.fr>
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Roger T.
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Robert S. White
1997-03-20  0:00               ` John L. Ahrens
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Wolfgang Gellerich
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Robert S. White
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Trust but verify " Robert S. White
1997-03-25  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-26  0:00                     ` Robb Nebbe
1997-03-27  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-28  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-07  0:00                           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin [this message]
1997-03-31  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Please do not start a language war " Richard Irvine
1997-03-17  0:00   ` John McCabe
     [not found]     ` <tz8n2s1hrdc.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-20  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-20  0:00           ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Niall Cooling
1997-03-21  0:00               ` Gavin Collings
1997-03-27  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                       ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-07  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-09  0:00                           ` Gavin Collings
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Chris Beer
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Derek Clarke
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-04  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                 ` Robin Rosenberg
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00           ` Thomas Beale
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-21  0:00       ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Nigel Tzeng
1997-03-23  0:00       ` John McCabe
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Enrico Facchin - Sartori E.T.
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
     [not found]     ` <tz8g1xtzx9y.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-18  0:00           ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Programming language fanaticism! Louis Bastarache
1997-03-20  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-20  0:00             ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-27  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Nick S Bensema
1997-03-30  0:00                       ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-29  0:00                   ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-29  0:00                     ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-21  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-21  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-21  0:00               ` William Clodius
1997-03-21  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` William Clodius
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00               ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-22  0:00                 ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-23  0:00                     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00                   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00               ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Anders Pytte
     [not found]                 ` <3335BC24.13728473@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00                   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-01  0:00                         ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00                 ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-24  0:00               ` John Hogg
1997-03-24  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-26  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
     [not found]                     ` <E7ox17.MKx@syd.csa.com.au>
1997-03-28  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-18  0:00         ` Laurent Moussault
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-18  0:00         ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-04-02  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-03  0:00                   ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Jonathan Egre'
1997-04-06  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1997-04-06  0:00                       ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-04  0:00                   ` Derek Clarke
1997-03-31  0:00               ` Jan Galkowski
1997-03-31  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-01  0:00             ` Alexander Anderson
1997-04-02  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00         ` John the Hamster
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00             ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-19  0:00           ` Fergus Henderson
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-19  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-18  0:00     ` John McCabe
1997-03-18  0:00       ` Ray McVay
1997-03-27  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1997-03-29  0:00           ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-30  0:00             ` Nick Roberts
1997-04-06  0:00             ` Doctorb
1997-04-08  0:00         ` Ron Crocker
1997-04-11  0:00           ` Richard Riehle
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-17  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-17  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00     ` Kent Tong
1997-03-20  0:00       ` Ranan Fraer
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-22  0:00         ` Ron Forrester
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Tarjei Jensen
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-18  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00     ` Eric M. Boyd
1997-03-19  0:00       ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
     [not found]       ` <3345cd60.2092398@news.sydney.apana.org.au>
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Ariane-5 crash , Eiffel and Ada Nick Leaton
1997-04-03  0:00         ` Jeffrey W. Stulin
1997-04-08  0:00         ` AdaWorks
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Jean-Marc Jezequel
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Paul Johnson
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Design by Contract in C++ (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Anders Pytte
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-19  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Richard Kaiser
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-21  0:00       ` Frank Manning
1997-03-21  0:00         ` Martin Tom Brown
1997-03-23  0:00           ` Frank Manning
1997-03-25  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Karel Th�nissen
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Nick Leaton
1997-03-20  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Ulrich Windl
     [not found]   ` <tz8sp1qiywm.fsf@aimnet.com>
1997-03-21  0:00     ` ae59
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-23  0:00     ` "Paul E. Bennett"
1997-03-21  0:00   ` Please do not start a language war (was " Jon S Anthony
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-22  0:00     ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-23  0:00       ` Steve Furlong
1997-03-24  0:00         ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-24  0:00           ` Simulating Eiffel-style assertions (was: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-25  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-25  0:00                 ` Anders Pytte
1997-03-31  0:00                 ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-26  0:00             ` Alan Brain
1997-03-26  0:00               ` Wolfgang Reddig
1997-03-29  0:00                 ` How old time languages survive EJon
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-23  0:00     ` Dale Stanbrough
     [not found]       ` <3335E18E.33590565@eiffel.com>
1997-03-23  0:00         ` FUD (Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00           ` William Grosso
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-24  0:00             ` William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00             ` Brad Appleton
1997-03-24  0:00     ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robert Dewar
1997-03-24  0:00       ` Manners (was Re: Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract) Bertrand Meyer
1997-03-25  0:00         ` the one and only real true kibo
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Stuart Yeates
1997-03-22  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-28  0:00     ` Matt Kennel (Remove 'nospam' to reply)
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Jon S Anthony
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Nick Leaton
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-27  0:00     ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-31  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1997-04-06  0:00         ` Joachim Durchholz
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) William Clodius
1997-03-24  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Robb Nebbe
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ariane-5: can you clarify? (Re: Please do not start a language war) Ken Garlington
1997-03-25  0:00   ` David Starr
1997-03-25  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Papers on the Ariane-5 crash and Design by Contract Ken Garlington
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Alexander Anderson
1997-03-26  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-27  0:00   ` Trust but verify (was " Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1997-03-28  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1997-03-31  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
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