Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Do-While Jones]

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In article <32E48C50.59E2@Rational.COM> Jerome Desquilbet <jDesquilbet@Rational.COM> writes:
>Bonjour,
>
>Je constate un trafic quasiment nul sur fr.comp.lang.ada depuis sa
>r�cente cr�ation. Aussi me permets-je de rappeler son existence.
>
>Merci,
>
>  J�r�me.
>
>______________________________________________________________________
>Jerome Desquilbet                             jDesquilbet@Rational.COM
> ' ^

There apparently isn't much traffic on fr.comp.lang.ada.  This might be 
because some newsreaders don't carry non-English newsgroups.  Mine 
doesn't.  (I've asked for fr.comp.lang.ada, but our system administrator 
doesn't know how to get it.)

Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional 
messages in French on comp.lang.ada?

Would it be better to set up a mailing list, Equipe_Ada, similar to 
Team_Ada, instead?

Do-While Jones

-- 
            +--------------------------------+
            |    Know                 Ada    |
            |        [Ada's Portrait]        |
            |    Will              Travel    |
            | wire do_while@ridgecrest.ca.us |
            +--------------------------------+

French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <5c2ks7$dm7@ash.ridgecrest.ca.us>, do_while@lo-pan.ridgecrest.ca.us (Do-While Jones) writes:

> There apparently isn't much traffic on fr.comp.lang.ada.  This might be 
> because some newsreaders don't carry non-English newsgroups.  Mine 
> doesn't.  (I've asked for fr.comp.lang.ada, but our system administrator 
> doesn't know how to get it.)
> 
> Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional 
> messages in French on comp.lang.ada?

To me it is just as annoying as MAKE MONEY FAST scams.

Although I will presume that all the material in French is valid
discussions regarding Ada, the result for those of us who do not
speak French is exactly the same as if someone had combined the
Ada newsgroup with the Model-Railroading newsgroup. Certainly this
is not the separation-of-content envisioned in the NNTP design.

> Would it be better to set up a mailing list, Equipe_Ada, similar to 
> Team_Ada, instead?

If the root problem is news sites not passing French Ada through,
then that problem should be addressed.  If they have a legitimate
argument that traffic is too low to justify carrying the newsgroup
then a mailing list would be in order.

That is my attitude.  I would expect exactly a corresponding
response if I suggested carrying English Ada messages in the
French Ada newsgroup (or the French Model-Railroading group,
for that matter).

Larry Kilgallen

fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Jerome Desquilbet]

Bonjour,

Je constate un trafic quasiment nul sur fr.comp.lang.ada depuis sa
r�cente cr�ation. Aussi me permets-je de rappeler son existence.

Merci,

  J�r�me.

______________________________________________________________________
Jerome Desquilbet                             jDesquilbet@Rational.COM
 ' ^

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Grave Xavier]

je n'arrive pas a joindre ce newsgroup donc je me rabat
sur la version anglaise.
-- 
xavier@virgoa4.in2p3.fr

De chacun selon ses forces, a chacun selon ses besoins.

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Philip Brashear]

As an English-speaking/reading person, I certainly have no objection to
seeing French (or German, or Swahili, or even my native Hillbilly) postings.  
I'd hate to think that I was so language-biased
that I couldn't recognize the worth of other forms of expression.
(Now, when it comes to software engineering languages, as opposed to
natural languages, that's a whole different ball game!)

Phil Brashear

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Peter Hermann]

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Jerome Desquilbet (jDesquilbet@Rational.COM) wrote:
: Je constate un trafic quasiment nul sur fr.comp.lang.ada depuis sa
: r�cente cr�ation. Aussi me permets-je de rappeler son existence.

En Allemagne le trafic du mail-list teamada@cci.de est quasi mort :-(
Et, il n'existe pas un newsgroup de.comp.lang.ada

--
Peter Hermann  Tel:+49-711-685-3611 Fax:3758 ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
Pfaffenwaldring 27, 70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Arthur Evans Jr]

do_while@lo-pan.ridgecrest.ca.us (Do-While Jones) writes:

> Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to
> occasional messages in French on comp.lang.ada?

Then kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) responded:

> To me it is just as annoying as MAKE MONEY FAST scams.

I disagree with Kilgallen.

As long as there are only a few such messagews (and IMHO present traffic
is well below threshhold), I see no objection.  These messages are quite
obvious from the subject line so that I can easily skip them.

If there gets to be a lot of this traffic, then it is right and
appropriate for it to move to its own news group.  In the interim,
though, such traffic is welcome here.

> If the root problem is news sites not passing French Ada through,
> then that problem should be addressed.

I agree.

Art Evans

Arthur Evans Jr, PhD
Ada Consulting
evans@evans.pgh.pa.us

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Jerome Desquilbet]

Sorry for my initial posting in French.

As I said in my initial post, fr.comp.lang.ada is simply a recent group
(about two weeks old), and that's enough to explain the low traffic.
I just wanted to re-announce its creation to the Ada French community.

French Ada fans give a great contribution to comp.lang.ada, answering
questions or participating to debates.

I don't think that seeing from time to time messages in French, German
or Spanish is such a big deal.

  J�r�me..

PS: my news reader is hosted by Rational, CA, and I have no problem to
get news from the fr.* hierarchy.

______________________________________________________________________
Jerome Desquilbet                             jDesquilbet@Rational.COM
 ' ^

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Carl Bowman]

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In article <32E72A2C.3F54@Rational.COM>,
Jerome Desquilbet  <jDesquilbet@Rational.COM> wrote:
 >Sorry for my initial posting in French.
 >
 >As I said in my initial post, fr.comp.lang.ada is simply a recent group
 >(about two weeks old), and that's enough to explain the low traffic.
 >I just wanted to re-announce its creation to the Ada French community.
 >
 >French Ada fans give a great contribution to comp.lang.ada, answering
 >questions or participating to debates.
 >
 >I don't think that seeing from time to time messages in French, German
 >or Spanish is such a big deal.
 >
 >  J�r�me..
 >
 >PS: my news reader is hosted by Rational, CA, and I have no problem to
 >get news from the fr.* hierarchy.
 >
 >______________________________________________________________________
 >Jerome Desquilbet                             jDesquilbet@Rational.COM
 > ' ^


I find myself interested in the other language posts.  I can often
understand the French and Spanish.  Does anyone know of a translator
we can use that will translate the English, French, German, and
Spanish texts?

Carl Bowman
Ada Information Clearinghouse

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Gautier]

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Peter Hermann:
> Jerome Desquilbet (jDesquilbet@Rational.COM) wrote:
> : Je constate un trafic quasiment nul sur fr.comp.lang.ada depuis sa
> : r�cente cr�ation. Aussi me permets-je de rappeler son existence.
> 
> En Allemagne le trafic du mail-list teamada@cci.de est quasi mort :-(
> Et, il n'existe pas un newsgroup de.comp.lang.ada

Et puis, les niouzes, c'est plus rigolo.

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Ted Dennison]

Do-While Jones wrote:
> 
> Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional
> messages in French on comp.lang.ada?
> 


I do.

But it isn't as bad as all the crossposted comp.lang.* flamewars, which
there is *nothing* we can do to stop.

-- 
T.E.D.          
             |  Work - mailto:dennison@escmail.orl.lmco.com  |
             |  Home - mailto:dennison@iag.net               |
             |  URL  - http://www.iag.net/~dennison          |

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Jon S Anthony]

In article <5c2ks7$dm7@ash.ridgecrest.ca.us> do_while@lo-pan.ridgecrest.ca.us (Do-While Jones) writes:

> Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional 
> messages in French on comp.lang.ada?

Not this one.

/Jon
-- 
Jon Anthony
Organon Motives, Inc.
Belmont, MA 02178
617.484.3383
jsa@organon.com

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Antoine Leca]

Grave Xavier �crivit :
� 
� je n'arrive pas a joindre ce newsgroup donc je me rabat
� sur la version anglaise. �

Je ne suis que fr.comp.lang.ada (sur une connexion RTC), donc tu vois 
que tu as quand m�me r�ussis � �crire dedans ;-).

[I only read fr.comp.lang.ada, so you've really wrote in it ;-)]

Ceci dit, mon administrateur n'a plus de place sur son serveur,
donc il a refus� de cr�er tous les nouveaux groupes tant qu'on ne lui
livrait pas son nouveau disque dur. :-(  Sun, fais vite...


Antoine

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Robert Dewar]

i"Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional
messages in French on comp.lang.ada?"

It is really much better to work on getting the fr group active, for most
readers of CLA, any messages in other than english raise the noise-to-signal
ratio.

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <5c54p8$oov@ns1.sw-eng.falls-church.va.us>,
Philip Brashear <brashear@ns1.sw-eng.falls-church.va.us> wrote:
>As an English-speaking/reading person, I certainly have no objection to
>seeing French (or German, or Swahili, or even my native Hillbilly) postings.  
>I'd hate to think that I was so language-biased
>that I couldn't recognize the worth of other forms of expression.
>(Now, when it comes to software engineering languages, as opposed to
>natural languages, that's a whole different ball game!)

I second Phil's emotion. One of the very nice things about the
Internet is its international flavor. Even though it started here in the
US, it is truly worldwide now, and that is its charm.

I have NO objection to seeing articles posted in other languages. I
read French and Dutch fluently and might even try to write some in
followup. There is no rule that requires news posts to be in
English, and anyone who'd discourage other languages is just being
xenophobic (IMHO). If you don;t understand the language of a post,
that's what the "next message" key is for!

In any case, I am really saddened by the growing trend to set up 
(natural-) language-specific groups for French, German, and whatever.
Why should we trake a wonderfully worldwide community and balkanize it?
Silly, IMHO!

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5919 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) 
http://www.seas.gwu.edu/faculty/mfeldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Pork is all that money the government gives the other guys.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ada on the WWW: www.acm.org/sigada/education or www.adahome.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Robert Dewar]

Mike says

"I have NO objection to seeing articles posted in other languages. I
read French and Dutch fluently and might even try to write some in
followup. There is no rule that requires news posts to be in
English, and anyone who'd discourage other languages is just being
xenophobic (IMHO). If you don;t understand the language of a post,
that's what the "next message" key is for!

In any case, I am really saddened by the growing trend to set up
(natural-) language-specific groups for French, German, and whatever.
Why should we trake a wonderfully worldwide community and balkanize it?"


I strongly disagree. Fine, Mike you read Dutch fluently, but a post in
Dutch is incomprehensible to 99% of the readers, and hence noise. The
common appeal to the delete key is unconvincing, if 90% of the messages
on a newsgroup become complete noise, people would simply stop contributing.
Furthermore, you will find (look what has happened in other groups) that
those who contribute most valuable posts are the ones whose time is
valuable enough not to put up with the noise.

Breaking down the traffic into language specific groups makes perfect
sense, and is not in any way xenophobic and does not constitute
balkanization.

You might as well argue that there should be only one giant newsgroup
in the world, and that those wanting information on Ada can simply delete
messages more suitable to alt.startrek.sex.fetish.

The reason we split up newsgroups is to increase the probability that
messages will be of interest to those who read the newsgroup. Often it
is a bit tricky to deal with distinguishing subject material, but language
makes a *perfect* criterion for splitting up groups. You subscribe (and
hopefully participate) in those groups for which you understand the
language. Mike, you can subscribe to the English, French and Dutch
newsgroups, but it seems like it would be a complete waste of time
for you to see messages in Japanese, so you simply do not select this
group.

Eventually it might be nice to have a different mechanism available,
for example, coding of messages by language with automatic filtering,
or even automatic translation (which would of course also be facilitated
by language coding, and might be more practical than general translation,
because of the limited subject domain).

But for now, separate newsgroups is what makes sense. I realize that 
current trendy political correctness leads in the direction of thinking
that it is frightfully liberal and tolerant to welcome mixed languages
on newsgroups, but from a pragmatic sense it is simply silly.

For those who like to see messages in foreign languages, simply subscribe
to all the groups in sight! Mike did you subscribe to the French Ada
group? If not, why not?

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <dewar.854294234@merv>, Robert Dewar <dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Mike says

[snip]

>You might as well argue that there should be only one giant newsgroup
>in the world, and that those wanting information on Ada can simply delete
>messages more suitable to alt.startrek.sex.fetish.

Not so. The groups are organized by interest, not by natural language.

[snip]

> Mike, you can subscribe to the English, French and Dutch
>newsgroups, but it seems like it would be a complete waste of time
>for you to see messages in Japanese, so you simply do not select this
>group.

I disagree. I'd much prefer to see those messages here.

[snip]

>But for now, separate newsgroups is what makes sense. I realize that 
>current trendy political correctness leads in the direction of thinking
>that it is frightfully liberal and tolerant to welcome mixed languages
>on newsgroups, but from a pragmatic sense it is simply silly.

You and I will simply have to agree to disagree here. You may think
it's silly; I don't. It's got nothing to do with PC; I am as much
entitled to state my preferences,  Robert, as you are yours.
I prefer to see one big, happy Ada family, not a bunch of little
natural-language-centric fragments.

>For those who like to see messages in foreign languages, simply subscribe
>to all the groups in sight! Mike did you subscribe to the French Ada
>group? If not, why not?

Because I'd prefer to see the Ada community - which is small enough,
heaven knows, getting together in one place. I'd much rather see the
messages here. It's easy enough to delete a message whose subject
line is in a language you don't (wish to try to) understand.

There's plenty of noise on this group generated by English writers.
Once we have an agreeably high S/N ratio (we do not now, IMHO), we
can worry about the odd post that (gasp) arrives in another language.

This is my last word on this subject. As far as I am concerned, posts
are welcome in any language as long as they are on the subject of _Ada_.

Robert is, of course, welcome to disagreee. That's the nice part of the
Net newsgroups. They are everybody's, and nobody's, property.

Mike Feldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Feldman -  chair, SIGAda Education Working Group
Professor, Dept. of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science
The George Washington University -  Washington, DC 20052 USA
202-994-5919 (voice) - 202-994-0227 (fax) 
http://www.seas.gwu.edu/faculty/mfeldman
------------------------------------------------------------------------
       Pork is all that money the government gives the other guys.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ada on the WWW: www.acm.org/sigada/education or www.adahome.com 
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[John M. Mills]

In <JSA.97Jan24184725@alexandria> jsa@alexandria (Jon S Anthony) writes:

>In article <5c2ks7$dm7@ash.ridgecrest.ca.us> do_while@lo-pan.ridgecrest.ca.us (Do-While Jones) writes:

 >> Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional 
 >> messages in French on comp.lang.ada?

 >Not this one.

Moi, non plus.

If there gets to be a problem with multi-lingual posting, we can try to solve
it.  Till then, no huhu. (IMHO)

-- 
John M. Mills, Senior Research Engineer   --   john.m.mills@gtri.gatech.edu
   Georgia Tech Research Institute, Georgia Tech, Atlanta, GA 30332-0834
        Phone contacts: 404.894.0151 (voice), 770.528.7083 (FAX)
               Why are so many Linux users named "root"?

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Michael Feldman]

In article <dewar.854367129@merv>, Robert Dewar <dewar@merv.cs.nyu.edu> wrote:
>Note that in Mike's contribution on the French issue, he was considering
>what *he* wanted, but it is really more appropriate to consider what the
>French speaking Ada programmers want. The vote on the formation of the
>French group makes it clear that they disagree with Mike's desire to have
>all the messages on one group.

Yes, you are right, Robert. That's fine, if that's what they want.

OTOH, I can assure my colleagues in other countries that they are
also welcome here, and - if they choose to cross-post a French (or
German, or whatever) message here, I will not flame them or try to
drive them out. Others may disagree, of course; that's life on the
Net.

>This is easy to understand, if you don't want to read the English messages,
>then having the few French messages buried among hundreds of English messages
>is going to be very annoying!

Indeed. I still hope that if a non-English message turns up here,
we will be courteous enough to either

1. answer in the original language if we can

2. answer in English if we can read but don't feel comfortable writing
   the other language

3. keep quiet.

Mike Feldman

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[J-P. Rosen]

lga@sma.ch (Laurent Gasser) wrote:

>Moreover, the overall moderate traffic on comp.lang.ada do not justify 
>a splitting in many branches (compilers, tasks, ...) and even less in
>many (human) languages.  We need concentration of forces at the moment,
>no diversification.
There was a poll for the creation of fr.comp.lang.ada, that came out
with an overwhelming "Yes". It means that there is a significant
amount of french speaking people who do think that it is useful.
And you could be surprised, as I am quite often, with the number of
professionnal programmers whose english is very poor...
Not to blame them. Just to tell that there IS room for a french
speaking Ada newsgroup

+------------------------------------o-------------------------------------+
|   J-P. Rosen                       |    Rosen.Adalog@wanadoo.fr          |
|   ADALOG - 27 avenue de Verdun     |    Tel: +33 1 46 45 51 12           |
|   92170 Vanves - FRANCE            |    Fax: +33 1 46 45 52 49           |
+------------------------------------o-------------------------------------+

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Robert Dewar]

Note that in Mike's contribution on the French issue, he was considering
what *he* wanted, but it is really more appropriate to consider what the
French speaking Ada programmers want. The vote on the formation of the
French group makes it clear that they disagree with Mike's desire to have
all the messages on one group.

This is easy to understand, if you don't want to read the English messages,
then having the few French messages buried among hundreds of English messages
is going to be very annoying!

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Peter Hart]

do_while@lo-pan.ridgecrest.ca.us (Do-While Jones) wrote:


>Do the English-speaking subscribers of comp.lang.ada object to occasional 
>messages in French on comp.lang.ada?
>

I'd have no objection personally, but would suggest, as a courtesy to
people who don't understand french, or indeed any other language, that
some 'standard' subject prefix was picked to allow easy 'kill'ing:
[fr]:, for instance (or similar for other languages).

 -Z.

'Waste Please' - Exhortation on bins in DisneyWorld....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter Hart: zeddy@one.net, 106047.2634@compuserve.com. Voice: +1-513-579-9957
135, Garfield Place Apt#423, Cincinnati OH45202, USA.

Re: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en fran�ais du langage Ada

[Michael Feldman]

In article <32ef5858.6129470@news.one.net>, Peter Hart <zeddy@one.net> wrote:

>I'd have no objection personally, but would suggest, as a courtesy to
>people who don't understand french, or indeed any other language, that
>some 'standard' subject prefix was picked to allow easy 'kill'ing:
>[fr]:, for instance (or similar for other languages).

This is an excellent compromise!

I vote yes!

Mike Feldman

Re: French Messages (was: fr.comp.lang.ada, pour discuter en frangais...)

[Keith Thompson]

In <1997Jan21.150153.1@eisner> kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) writes:
[...]
> Although I will presume that all the material in French is valid
> discussions regarding Ada, the result for those of us who do not
> speak French is exactly the same as if someone had combined the
> Ada newsgroup with the Model-Railroading newsgroup. Certainly this
> is not the separation-of-content envisioned in the NNTP design.

I suspect more readers of comp.lang.ada will understand a typical article
in French than an article about freezing rules in English.  8-)}  8-)}

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@aonix.com <http://www.aonix.com> <*>
TeleSo^H^H^H^H^H^H Alsy^H^H^H^H Thomson Softw^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H Aonix
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