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From: "Dan'l Miller" <optikos@verizon.net>
Subject: Re: a new language, designed for safety !
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2014 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT)
Date: 2014-06-09T09:07:07-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <529e9460-0a3f-476b-9aa4-178dca653a20@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <f4e70jy7x2gb$.tim06x2va6mm$.dlg@40tude.net>

On Monday, June 9, 2014 2:06:27 AM UTC-5, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> The language-invented methods here are unsafe because it is not what the
> programmer would normally expect calling them [*]. Thus in both cases the
> languages are unsafe.
> [...snip...]
> *  Robert's definition of unsafety formulated differently: unexpected
> behavior from familiar syntax ["misuse"].

[Unexpected /= undefined]
No, Dmitry, that is my definition formulated differently, not Robert's.  Robert's definition that I was critiquing (and that, in effect, you too are critiquing) hinges on *undefined* behaviors in the language specification (and constantly remembering to not evoke them is a battle-hardened badge of honor in C & C++ culture).  *Unexpected* behaviors that are well-defined as required in the Ada language specification are, by definition, not *undefined* in Ada---hence the key point of departure from Robert's excessively-narrow definition of "unsafe".  Unexpected behaviors resulting from familiar syntax are a category of defect that can go unnoticed in a shipped product and cause harshly-deliterious outcomes---hence the coverage by my definition of "unsafe" evoking Nancy Leveson's system-engineering school of thought on safeware http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Leveson.  In my definition of "unsafe", for brevity and to drive home a crucial safety point, I rename "harshly-deliterious outcomes" to be bodily injury and/or death.

(Btw, why fast-forward safety in software to bodily injury and death? The concept of safety becomes too politically muddled for clear thinking if debate goes off on tangents when the set of harshly-deliterious outcomes includes legal liability, company's financial loss, user's financial loss, and other harshly-deliterious outcomes that depend on socioeconomic philosophy [which some readers might not share] rather than the more-instinctual moral laws of don't hurt people and don't kill people [which I hope all readers share].)

  reply	other threads:[~2014-06-09 16:07 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 285+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2014-06-03  1:37 a new language, designed for safety ! Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-04  0:21 ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-04  1:19   ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-04  4:05     ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-04  6:59       ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-04  4:12     ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-04  5:44   ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-04 15:25 ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-04 19:43   ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-04 21:32     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-05  9:13     ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-05 15:33       ` Adam Beneschan
2014-06-05 19:19         ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-05 15:55       ` Adam Beneschan
2014-06-05 19:15         ` sbelmont700
2014-06-05 22:40       ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-06 15:13         ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-06 17:51           ` G.B.
2014-06-06 18:39             ` Niklas Holsti
2014-06-06 19:43               ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-06 20:42                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-08  9:40               ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-08 13:56                 ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-08 16:13                   ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-08 17:22                     ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-08 19:36                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-09  5:30                       ` Niklas Holsti
2014-06-09  7:06                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-09 16:07                           ` Dan'l Miller [this message]
2014-06-10  7:44                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-10 16:31                               ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-10 16:52                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-06 18:52           ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-06 22:50             ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-23  0:40       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-23  0:43         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-23  0:51           ` Shark8
2014-06-23  1:47             ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-23  6:46               ` Shark8
2014-06-23 14:17             ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-23 15:39               ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-23 17:04               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-05  8:26   ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-09 10:03 ` Pascal Obry
2014-06-10  9:36   ` Stephen Leake
2014-06-10 10:48     ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-10 18:31       ` Pascal Obry
2014-06-23  1:01         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-10 12:28     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-10 12:42       ` Lucretia
2014-06-10 12:50         ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-10 13:00           ` Lucretia
2014-06-10 14:43             ` Brad Moore
2014-06-10 15:15               ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-10 20:28                 ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-10 20:39                   ` Pascal Obry
2014-06-10 21:04                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-11  7:17                       ` Pascal Obry
2014-06-25 22:37                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-10 22:09                   ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-12 23:58                     ` Shark8
2014-06-13  1:28                       ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-25 22:41                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26  1:36                           ` Shark8
2014-06-26 10:19                           ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-25 22:40                     ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26  7:39                       ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-26  7:42                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26 10:07                           ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-26 10:18                       ` J-P. Rosen
2014-07-02 22:06                         ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-11  0:16                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-11  7:29                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-11 19:22                       ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-12 11:48                         ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-12 16:59                           ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-10 15:33               ` Lucretia
2014-06-10 16:31                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-10 19:34                   ` Tero Koskinen
2014-06-11  6:46                     ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-11  8:45                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-11  9:05                       ` Simon Wright
2014-06-11 12:09                       ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-11 12:34                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-11 12:42                           ` björn lundin
2014-06-11 13:04                           ` Lucretia
2014-06-11 12:11                     ` björn lundin
2014-06-10 19:49                 ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-10 22:09                   ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-11  9:01                     ` Simon Wright
2014-06-16 16:22                     ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-16 17:11                       ` Ada platforms and pricing, was: " Simon Clubley
2014-06-17 19:34                         ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-17 20:16                           ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-18  5:56                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-18  6:34                               ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-18 19:57                           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-19  3:46                             ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-22 19:50                               ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-22 23:38                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-23  6:18                                   ` Niklas Holsti
2014-06-23  7:42                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 11:17                                       ` Simon Wright
2014-06-23 17:14                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 19:21                                           ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-23 20:14                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 21:48                                               ` Simon Wright
2014-06-24  1:18                                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-24  2:15                                                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-24  7:51                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 21:52                                               ` Simon Wright
2014-06-24  1:04                                                 ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-26  3:24                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26  3:27                                                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-24  1:01                                             ` Shark8
2014-06-24 10:24                                               ` Simon Wright
2014-06-24 11:25                                                 ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-24 15:55                                                   ` Shark8
2014-06-24 18:06                                                     ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-24 18:44                                                       ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-24 18:49                                                       ` Shark8
2014-06-24 21:25                                                         ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-24 16:48                                                   ` Simon Wright
2014-06-26  3:41                                                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-23 20:40                                           ` Simon Wright
2014-06-24  7:48                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 11:48                                       ` G.B.
2014-06-24  7:52                                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2014-06-24  8:33                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-07-01 10:28                                           ` Simon Wright
2014-07-01 12:41                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-26  2:50                                         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26 10:04                                           ` G.B.
2014-06-26 18:20                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-25 17:24                                       ` Niklas Holsti
2014-06-26  2:43                                       ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-23  7:31                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-23 20:08                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-23 20:20                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-24 11:56                                         ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-24 12:13                                   ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-17 20:27                         ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-18  7:09                           ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-18 10:32                             ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-18 11:50                               ` Brian Drummond
2014-06-18 17:34                               ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-18 17:56                                 ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-19  7:22                                   ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-19 12:02                                     ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-20  7:03                                       ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-19 13:33                                     ` Lucretia
2014-06-20  7:07                                       ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-20 11:44                                         ` Lucretia
2014-06-20 12:47                                           ` Dennis Lee Bieber
2014-06-18 18:24                                 ` Lucretia
2014-06-19  7:26                                   ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-18 18:47                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-18 20:17                                   ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-18 22:51                                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-19  8:51                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-19  3:35                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-19  7:34                                   ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-19  8:19                                     ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-19  9:11                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-19 12:08                                       ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-19 13:48                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-19 20:59                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-26  2:04                                           ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26 22:24                                             ` Shark8
2014-06-26 22:44                                               ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-26 22:51                                                 ` Shark8
2014-06-27 12:43                                               ` Ada platforms and pricing, was: Re: a new language, anon
2014-06-19 21:13                                         ` Ada platforms and pricing, was: Re: a new language, designed for safety ! Robert A Duff
2014-06-19 23:47                                           ` Adam Beneschan
2014-06-19 21:03                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-20  7:26                                       ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-20 19:50                                         ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-21  8:35                                           ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-22 23:26                                             ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-26  2:16                                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-20  9:54                                   ` anon
2014-06-20 12:25                                     ` Lucretia
2014-06-20 19:32                                       ` Ada platforms and pricing, was: Re: a new language, designed for anon
2014-06-18 17:01                             ` Ada platforms and pricing, was: Re: a new language, designed for safety ! Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-19  7:53                               ` Natasha Kerensikova
2014-06-19 21:10                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-19 22:27                                   ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-16 21:31                       ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-16 23:02                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-17 11:14                           ` gvdschoot
2014-06-17 17:42                             ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-17 12:56                           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-17 17:43                             ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-17 19:46                               ` Jacob Sparre Andersen
2014-06-26  1:20                                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-17 19:41                             ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-17 20:08                               ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-18  5:46                                 ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-18  8:02                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-18  9:34                                     ` G.B.
2014-06-18 12:30                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-18 14:43                                         ` G.B.
2014-06-18 16:39                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-20  8:27                                             ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-25 22:43                 ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-12 23:56               ` Shark8
2014-06-10 20:22         ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-10 21:14           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-10 22:09             ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-10 22:09           ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-11  0:05           ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-11  7:32             ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-11 16:50               ` G.B.
2014-06-11 19:20               ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-12  7:01                 ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-12 17:46                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-12 21:40                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13  6:37                       ` J-P. Rosen
2014-06-13 12:03                         ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13 15:34                           ` Lucretia
2014-06-13 17:00                             ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13 22:21                           ` Brian Drummond
2014-06-14 20:41                             ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-15  6:26                               ` Tero Koskinen
2014-06-16  0:11                                 ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-15 18:10                               ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-16  0:00                                 ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-25  6:42                   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-25  7:29                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-25 12:17                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-12 23:53         ` Shark8
2014-06-13  4:28           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13  8:17             ` gvdschoot
2014-06-13 13:16               ` Simon Wright
2014-06-13 14:13                 ` gvdschoot
2014-06-13 15:52                   ` Shark8
2014-06-13 17:04                   ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13 20:10                     ` Simon Wright
2014-06-15  6:33                 ` Tero Koskinen
2014-06-15  7:47                   ` gvdschoot
2014-06-15  8:13                     ` gvdschoot
2014-06-15  8:18                     ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2014-06-16  0:16                       ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-16  0:35                     ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-16  6:08                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-16  6:19                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-16 12:08                           ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-25 22:28                             ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-16 12:30                           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-16  6:22                         ` gvdschoot
2014-06-25  6:28         ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2014-06-11  8:27     ` Maciej Sobczak
2014-06-11 19:39       ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-11 19:52         ` Luke A. Guest
2014-06-12  1:39           ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-12  2:46             ` Dan'l Miller
2014-06-12 11:24               ` Peter Chapin
2014-06-12 11:36                 ` Lucretia
2014-06-12 14:48                 ` björn lundin
2014-06-12 22:12                   ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-13  8:36                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-13 15:55                       ` Shark8
2014-06-13 16:13                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-13 20:57                       ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-14  7:27                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-14 21:02                         ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-16 16:39                         ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-16 17:13                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-16 17:24                           ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-16 19:13                             ` Simon Wright
2014-06-16 20:25                               ` Simon Clubley
2014-06-17 16:10                                 ` Simon Wright
2014-06-16 21:53                           ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-16 23:02                             ` Jeffrey Carter
2014-06-16 23:42                               ` Robert A Duff
2014-06-17 19:18                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2014-06-14 21:05                       ` Maciej Sobczak
2014-06-15  6:52                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-15 10:04                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2014-06-15 12:25                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-17  8:18                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2014-06-17  9:13                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-18  7:55                               ` Maciej Sobczak
2014-06-18  8:31                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2014-06-12  8:16         ` Georg Bauhaus
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