Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?]

[deafen@imap2.asu.edu]

Frank Manning (frank@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu) wrote:
   [...]

: In my humble opinion, the solution to that problem is to teach the
: students what actually goes on inside the computer, how a transducer
: signal wends its way through an ADC into the computer memory, and how to
: write the software that controls all that stuff. Students also need to
: understand that things can go wrong and the computer will tell you a
: direct lie if it can possibly get away with it.

Frank, please allow me to speak from a student's point of view.  I'm a
senior in CIS, so I'm not required to do any assembly coding.  (For that
matter, I'm not required to learn much programming at all; I consider
myself the "odd man out" because I actually enjoy doing it and learning
about it.)

I do have a point.  Please be patient.  :)

Computer science students entering college today face a dilemma.  While 
we understand that the fundamentals (how the "transducer signal wends its 
way...into the computer memory") are important, we need to keep up with 
the state of the art, as well.

Those who have been in computing for twenty (or even ten) years have an 
advantage over us; they've had the time to learn all of the fundamentals 
and grow with the technology and paradigm shifts.  We are faced with the 
daunting task of learning all of these things in a few years, rather than 
a decade or two.

If I were to specialize in "how to write the software that controls all 
that stuff," I'd be left with no time at all to learn the more 
sophisticated things -- the MS Windows API, for example.

I can't speak much for the academic or research communities.  However, if 
a programmer is going to be of much use at all to the business community, 
it's far more important *to the employer* that s/he know the current 
state of the art than the underlying foundation.

I'm not saying that it shouldn't be taught.  However, before decrying the 
lack of fundamental knowledge in current CS graduates, it's important to 
take these things into consideration.

Colleges are stuck with the unenviable task of ensuring that their 
graduates will be employable and proficient.  An employer (in the 
business community) doesn't much care if a programmer knows what object 
code is created from their source code.  They care that the programmer 
can program well *in the environment of that particular organization*.

As to the statement that students should learn that the computer will lie 
at every opportunity, be assured that this IS being taught.  Perhaps it's 
not being explained in terms of the actual machine language, but we're 
learning it.  Believe me.  (Actually, I think that that knowledge comes 
from hands-on programming experience, which we've all got to do.)

Side note: I'm glad that this is the first thread I picked up in 
c.l.c++.  Nice to see intelligent discourse on Usenet for once.  :)

--
Hal Haygood :: PC/Network/Unix technician, Suntek Integrated Technologies
hal@suncap.com  ::  deafen@asu.edu  ::  hagar@mail.hvs.com
My opinions and those of my employer rarely, if ever, coincide.