query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[IBRAHIM Bertrand]

I am currently using Verdix Ada Development System (VADS 5.5) on SUN 3/50
and 3/60 machines. Our site is running SunOS 3.5 and might soon move to 
SunOS 4.0. Our local vendor told us that they didn't have yet any Ada
environment running under SunOS 4.0. Is this correct? 

Since we intend to buy some new licences, are there other vendors selling
Ada environments running under SunOS 4.0?

As a subsidiary question, is there (will there be) an Ada environment for 
SUN4 machines?

advTHANKSance for your help.

B. Ibrahim
              to BITNET                             to EAN
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ARPA   IBRAHIM%CGEUGE51.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU bertrand%cui.unige.ch@ubc.csnet
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Re: query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[Gerald Karam]

In article <248@cui.UUCP> bertrand@cui.UUCP (IBRAHIM Bertrand) writes:
>I am currently using Verdix Ada Development System (VADS 5.5) on SUN 3/50
>and 3/60 machines. Our site is running SunOS 3.5 and might soon move to 
>SunOS 4.0. Our local vendor told us that they didn't have yet any Ada
>environment running under SunOS 4.0. Is this correct? 

we are currently holding back on our migration to 4.0 because of
similar verdix ada problems. we have been told o/s 4.0 is coming
but have no firm date.  other software packages are also behind on
the migration.  i guess we just have to sit on our hands :-)

gerald karam

Re: query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[William Thomas Wolfe,2847,]

From article <248@cui.UUCP>, by bertrand@cui.UUCP (IBRAHIM Bertrand):
> I am currently using Verdix Ada Development System (VADS 5.5) on SUN 3/50
> and 3/60 machines. Our site is running SunOS 3.5 and might soon move to 
> SunOS 4.0. Our local vendor told us that they didn't have yet any Ada
> environment running under SunOS 4.0. Is this correct? 
> 
> Since we intend to buy some new licences, are there other vendors selling
> Ada environments running under SunOS 4.0?

     The Telesoft people have what looks like a wonderful product;
     we here at Clemson are evaluating it for our Suns running 4.0.

     Telesoft has an extremely good compiler interface (windows,
     electronic buttons for the mouse to click on, etc); their
     debugger does not look quite as strong, though.  They have
     a profiler and automatic recompilation facilities.  Also,
     the optimization facilities in their latest release result
     in code which, if Telesoft's benchmarks are believable,
     result in code which runs faster than the code produced 
     by current C compilers.  They also exhibited the code generated
     by the Verdix Ada product (about 35 instructions) at Tri-Ada '88,
     contrasting it with the mere three instructions generated
     under total optimization mode by their product, for one
     particular (no doubt strategically selected) benchmark.

     The Telesoft people, apparently highly confident of the
     quality of their product, invited me to the Telesoft User's
     Group meeting; I found great praise for Telesoft's customer
     support, and no gripes whatsoever.  About the only thing
     I could find at all to pick on regarding Telesoft is that
     their debugger was apparently left in a bare-bones condition
     while personnel were diverted to the mission of creating
     a compiler which could out-optimize C compilers; it looks
     like they've declared victory now and started to focus more
     attention on enhancing the debugger.

     Alsys has a product which has a very nice debugger interface,
     but unfortunately is not very crash-proof; for example,
     any attempt to examine an object which is locally declared
     within a package initialization will crash the debugger.

     The AdaWorld compiler environment is OK, but it really could
     have used some of the pull-down menus, etc., which were
     incorporated into the AdaProbe debugger -- a very nice product,
     if only it didn't itself need debugging!!! 
  
     The Verdix people claimed that their product did run on SunOS 4.0; 
     however, Verdix seems to take user-hostility to new heights.  Their
     claim to be "integrated into the Unix environment" seems to carry
     the hidden caveat "By the way, you *do* like keyboard commands,
     just as cryptic as we can possibly make them?"; in view of the 
     vastly superior user interfaces provided by Alsys and Telesoft, 
     the Verdix product was quickly rejected. 

Re: query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[David Harvey]

In article <3372@hubcap.UUCP>, billwolf@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe,2847,) writes:
>      The Telesoft people have what looks like a wonderful product;
>      we here at Clemson are evaluating it for our Suns running 4.0.
> 
>      Telesoft has an extremely good compiler interface (windows,
>      electronic buttons for the mouse to click on, etc); their
>      debugger does not look quite as strong, though.  They have
>
	<.......stuff deleted.......>
>   
>      The Verdix people claimed that their product did run on SunOS 4.0; 
>      however, Verdix seems to take user-hostility to new heights.  Their
>      claim to be "integrated into the Unix environment" seems to carry
>      the hidden caveat "By the way, you *do* like keyboard commands,
>      just as cryptic as we can possibly make them?"; in view of the 
>      vastly superior user interfaces provided by Alsys and Telesoft, 
>      the Verdix product was quickly rejected. 

Not having worked with the Verdix product or having anything to do with
the company, I don't know exactly what you mean by "user-hostility."
But if it means that you prefer an icon interface (ala Xerox PARC) over
a command line interface I can only conclude you prefer to use the
machine rather than program it.  The Macintosh is the most frustrating
equipment I have worked on to date!  On my Amiga I notice that when I
USE the machine I prefer using the mouse and clicking.  When I PROGRAM
the machine I favor a CLI (or shell if you prefer).  The reason is
simple.  It is easier for me to get something done, and I get it done
faster.  This point was not lost on Steve Jobs when creating the NeXT
machine, and prominent mention is made that the Iconic interface is
NOT the best for a programmer.  He also has listened (Steve listening
to anyone!?) to his programmers and has developed very strong tools for
programmers to use in the shell environment, not with the Postscript
interface.

My main point in writing is to reveal that having an icon based
development system is not necessarily the best way to go, especially
for the programmer.  As to the claim that an Ada compiler beats a
C compiler (especially for smaller programs), I just plain don't
believe it.  VAX Ada is especially a hog for smaller student projects.
For larger projects (say 100,000+ LOC) all bets are off.  But then,
that was what Ada was made for, right?  As a side note I have worked
with both Telesoft Ada and VAX Ada.  Neither one even comes close
to the pcc on our Ultrix machine or the Aztec compiler in terms of
either size of code or speed of execution.  But students don't even
care about those figures.  All they care about is how fast they can
DEVELOP their programs since they rarely run them more than once or
twice anyway.  So don't be too fast to write a product off, especially
for students who actually love a command line interface!

Re: query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[Gerald Karam]

In article <770@wsccs.UUCP> dharvey@wsccs.UUCP (David Harvey) writes:
>In article <3372@hubcap.UUCP>, billwolf@hubcap.clemson.edu (William Thomas Wolfe,2847,) writes:
>>      The Telesoft people have what looks like a wonderful product;
>>      we here at Clemson are evaluating it for our Suns running 4.0.
>> 
>>      Telesoft has an extremely good compiler interface (windows,
>>      electronic buttons for the mouse to click on, etc); their
...more...
>>   
>>      The Verdix people claimed that their product did run on SunOS 4.0; 
>>      however, Verdix seems to take user-hostility to new heights.  Their
>>      claim to be "integrated into the Unix environment" seems to carry
>>      the hidden caveat "By the way, you *do* like keyboard commands,
>>      just as cryptic as we can possibly make them?"; in view of the 
...more...
>>      the Verdix product was quickly rejected. 
>
>Not having worked with the Verdix product or having anything to do with
>the company, I don't know exactly what you mean by "user-hostility."
>But if it means that you prefer an icon interface (ala Xerox PARC) over
>a command line interface I can only conclude you prefer to use the
>machine rather than program it.

Verdix provides an environment that is command line driven and a clone
of unix.  for example, to list your ada program units, you would 
type "a.ls".  As a Unix user its great.  I just have to preface commands
with "a." and i have equivalent features in my ada environment.  its
quite clever, assuming you like unix. (you need an ada paginator/pretty?
enter a.pr, need to find out space utilization? a.du etc).

of course, this frugality of the interface is no excuse for these ease
with which i have broken the compiler, but then again i try strange but
legal things.

i felt the same interference with software development when i started 
to use a MAC.  what i can say with a couple of key strokes some regular
expressions and a pipe or two, could not be matched on the MAC.  It
makes great pictures though, and i could teach my mother how to use it
in a few minutes (apologies mom :-), but i wouldn't trade my unix
workstation for 10 macs.

gerald karam

Re: query: Ada for SUN 3/xx running SunOS 4.0

[Lynn Slater]

In the past week, there have been several discussions on the
"friendlyness" of certain vendor specific interfaces, particularly that
from Verdix.  Those unhappy with these interfaces might want to try
the Emacs Ada support package as it offers a simple interface that is
directed toward rapid program development. The interface is much like
that used for C development and will probably be extended to multiple
vendors.

-- Lynn
===============================================================
Lynn Slater -- lrs@esl.com
ESL/TRW 495 Java Drive, Box 3510, Sunnyvale, Ca 94088-3510
Office (408) 738-2888 x 4482; Home (415) 796-4149 
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