Re: why learn C?

[Markus E Leypold <development-2006-8ecbb5cc8aREMOVETHIS@ANDTHATm-e-leypold.de>]

"kevin  cline" <kevin.cline@gmail.com> writes:


> To me, it's a large advantage, and not narrowly focused at all.  I
> would think the inability to perform complete compile-time checking of
> physical units would be pretty serious in real-time control
> applications.  Do Ada programmers make do with run-time type checking,
> or just write more and more generic function instantiations until the
> application is finished?  The rest of use have more important things
> to do.

<...>

> It's not safer, AS A GENERAL PRINCIPLE.  But in the hands of experts, C
> ++ allows compile-time type checking that is impossible in Ada.

<...>

> ... when used by poorly lead mediocre programmers.

<...>

> No doubt some programmers do.  Good C++ programmers don't.  I
> certainly don't.

Is this a macho / male ego thing to you? It certainly sounds like it.


>> As for high-level programming, this is where Ada does excel.
>
> Not for most of us, because the advantages in safety are overwhelmed
> by the increased verbosity.

Haha. You don't sound like an experienced developer to my suspicious
ears ...


>> With all mechanisms available in Ada for developing solid, dependable
>> code and a language definition that focuses on creating compilers that
>> maximize the amount of error detection that can be done early in
>> the development process, I wonder whether you really understand
>> Ada at all.   Have you any understanding of the visbility rules?  This
>> goes well beyond type-safety.    Do you understand the library model
>> and how it affects separate compilation?
>
> Do you understand how unimportant those theoretical considerations are
> for those of us faced with time-to-market pressure?  Do you understand

"those of us faced with time to market pressure"? :-), indeed :-))).

I see you hunting bugs after you shipped banana software then for the
next years.

> how the start of the art in C++ compilers and C++ programming has
> advanced since Ada-95 was introduced?


>> As for the safety of generics, Grein's paper, which you take delight
>> in citing, does not discount the fact that most generic constructs
>> are type-safe at compile time.    Further, getting it right, with C++
>> templates is no trivial feat either.

> Actually, it's pretty trivial once you learn to think at the right
> level of abstraction.  And if no one on a team can think at the right
> level of abstraction, you will end up with a mess regardless of the
> language chosen.

:-)))


>> There are plenty of opportunities
>> to create errors in C++ templates.
>>
>> I have programmed in both languages.
>
> How much?
>
>> I have taught C++

> Which textbook did you use?



> For me, the short reason is that Ada generics are not as powerful as C+
> + templates.  The power of C++ templates has enabled me to write
> compact, efficient type-safe application code at a very high level in
> a way which is not possible in Ada.

More marketing speak ...

Regards -- Markus