* Re: What's the best language to start with [not found] <199608110535.WAA18572@pioneer.nevada.edu> @ 1996-08-11 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-12 0:00 ` Hiring tests (Re: What's the best language to start with) Ray Blaak ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Tim Behrendsen @ 1996-08-11 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, DAVID A MOLNAR wrote: > In article <01bb8540$59ac8420$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> you wrote: > : I should say that my test had them render solutions in C. I > : gave them a moderately easy but not trivial algorithm to > : implement, and they just plain couldn't do it. > I'm not a CS grad, but I can't help wondering what is considered > a moderately simple algorithm at this level. What sort of description > would you give to a person in that position? I would imagine that a fair > level of mathmatical literacy might be expected, not to mention some > acquaintance with the field you are hiring for... > May I respectfully ask what kind of an algorithm it is/was? If > you're still using it as a test for job applicants, I understand if you > don't wish to disclose the particulars. I only ask because I am currently > finishing up a CS1/CS2 sequence and have been following this debate with > increasing interest. Although I can't help but wonder why no one has yet > mentioned Scheme (my own 'first'). :-) It's caused me to take a look at > what I have and have not learned in the year or so that I've been taking > classes...and what I need to learn in the future. Fortunately, I have > some years yet until graduating from college. :-) I have been intentionally not giving my problems away, because it's hard to think of good solid problems that can be solved in a reasonable amount of time that doesn't get too much into specialized knowledge that would make them unfair. Basically, I have a problem that is arithmetic oriented, to see if someone can think mathemetically; a logic problem to see if they understand bits and logic; stuff like that. I will tell you one "bonus" problem that I give to see if they are paying attention; I don't really factor it in much when I decide to hire someone or not because it's not really a fair question. I love the problem, though, because it's a pure "thinking" problem. ---- You are writing a preprocessor program that takes C source as its input. The preprocessor replaces all variables and symbols in the program with unique names of the form VARxxxxxx, where "xxxxxx" is an incrementing decimal number. Describe what is needed to handle the case where the input source file already contains a variable of that form. ---- I would say about 95-98% of the applicants get this question wrong. I have had people I respect give the "obvious" wrong answer, though, so it's mostly a matter of not really thinking about it before answering. You should see some of the answers I get that are WAY off, though. It's really scary. At least 20% of the answers are some form of "I've never done a C preprocessor before, so I don't know." Yes, these are people with full-blown degrees. -- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Hiring tests (Re: What's the best language to start with) 1996-08-11 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Tim Behrendsen @ 1996-08-12 0:00 ` Ray Blaak 1996-08-13 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Frank Manning 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Ray Blaak @ 1996-08-12 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Sat, 10 Aug 1996, DAVID A MOLNAR wrote: > May I respectfully ask what kind of an algorithm it is/was? If > you're still using it as a test for job applicants, I understand if you > don't wish to disclose the particulars. I used to work for one company that had a programming test about artificial vision -- find the blobs. Sounded frightful until I realized it was just a floodfill algorithm. Apparently it used to upset a lot of applicants. Cheers, Ray Blaak blaak@mda.ca ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: What's the best language to start with 1996-08-11 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-12 0:00 ` Hiring tests (Re: What's the best language to start with) Ray Blaak @ 1996-08-13 0:00 ` Frank Manning 1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Frank Manning @ 1996-08-13 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960811134122.76393A-100000@wc.airshields.com> Tim Behrendsen <tim@airshields.com> writes: [ Bonus interview question ] ---- > You are writing a preprocessor program that takes C source as > its input. The preprocessor replaces all variables and symbols > in the program with unique names of the form VARxxxxxx, where > "xxxxxx" is an incrementing decimal number. Describe what is > needed to handle the case where the input source file already > contains a variable of that form. ---- OK, I'll bite. I'd say that particular case is handled just like any other case. The input variable/symbol is a completely separate entity from output string "VARxxxxxx" you replace it with, except for the 1:1 mapping of input vs. output strings. Examples: INPUT OUTPUT abc VAR000001 Color_Value VAR000002 VAR000001 VAR000003 VAR000004 VAR000004 X_Prime VAR000005 Nah...that was too easy. I musta missed something... -- Frank Manning ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: What's the best language to start with 1996-08-13 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Frank Manning @ 1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger 0 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Tim Behrendsen @ 1996-08-13 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Frank Manning <frank@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu> wrote in article <4up0ar$pim@news.ccit.arizona.edu>... > In article <Pine.A32.3.91.960811134122.76393A-100000@wc.airshields.com> > Tim Behrendsen <tim@airshields.com> writes: > > [ Bonus interview question ] > > ---- > > You are writing a preprocessor program that takes C source as > > its input. The preprocessor replaces all variables and symbols > > in the program with unique names of the form VARxxxxxx, where > > "xxxxxx" is an incrementing decimal number. Describe what is > > needed to handle the case where the input source file already > > contains a variable of that form. > ---- > > OK, I'll bite. I'd say that particular case is handled just like any > other case. The input variable/symbol is a completely separate entity > from output string "VARxxxxxx" you replace it with, except for the > 1:1 mapping of input vs. output strings. Examples: > > INPUT OUTPUT > > abc VAR000001 > Color_Value VAR000002 > VAR000001 VAR000003 > VAR000004 VAR000004 > X_Prime VAR000005 > > Nah...that was too easy. I musta missed something... Nope, you got it. :) The typical wrong answer (when they make an answer at all) is to start describing a list they keep of the ones that are already of the form, etc. Occasionally I'll get someone go off the deep end and describe incredibly elaborate data structures. Heh heh. I don't count it too much, because it's so stacked to lead the person down the wrong path. "Trick" questions rarely tell you anything significant, except where the "wrong" answer is really confused. -- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: What's the best language to start with 1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen @ 1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Bob Kitzberger @ 1996-08-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com) wrote: > You are writing a preprocessor program that takes C source as > its input. The preprocessor replaces all variables and symbols > in the program with unique names of the form VARxxxxxx, where > "xxxxxx" is an incrementing decimal number. Describe what is > needed to handle the case where the input source file already > contains a variable of that form. Do they get extra credit if they hand-optimize to take into account paging locality, compiler optimizations, etc.? :-) -- Bob Kitzberger Rational Software Corporation rlk@rational.com http://www.rational.com http://www.rational.com/pst/products/testmate.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: What's the best language to start with 1996-08-11 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-12 0:00 ` Hiring tests (Re: What's the best language to start with) Ray Blaak 1996-08-13 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Frank Manning @ 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 7+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1996-08-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Tim says "I would say about 95-98% of the applicants get this question wrong. I have had people I respect give the "obvious" wrong answer, though, so it's mostly a matter of not really thinking about it before answering." I can't see an obviously wrong answer, only a trivially right one, so perhaps you should tell us the mysterious obviously wrong answer. I tried this on a few people around here and they were all as puzzled as I was. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
* Re: What's the best language to start with 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 7+ messages in thread From: Tim Behrendsen @ 1996-08-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar <dewar@cs.nyu.edu> wrote in article <dewar.840032915@schonberg>... > Tim says > > "I would say about 95-98% of the applicants get this question > wrong. I have had people I respect give the "obvious" wrong answer, > though, so it's mostly a matter of not really thinking about it > before answering." > > I can't see an obviously wrong answer, only a trivially right one, so > perhaps you should tell us the mysterious obviously wrong answer. I tried > this on a few people around here and they were all as puzzled as I was. Well, it seemed obvious to me, too when I heard it the first time (A friend of mine's father used it as an intelligence test to programmers), but I guess that shows the general level of competence in the world. The typical wrong answer (if I get an answer at all) is to describe some elaborate data structure to keep track of the "duplicates". Here's a couple of examples [pulling off the "reject" stack]: ----------- "The basic need for the program is to replace the input, given from a C source, with a unique name of "VARXXXXX". The main body of this program would simply read in data (in c) and replace it with a variable name. In order to make sure any one input source did not have the same variable name (as what it might be replaced with) we would simply have to add a condition to our loop. The program would be set up in the form of a _loop_ where a variable is read _AND_ check that the unique name it will be replaced with is not the same as the input source file and then proceed to replace the variables. In the case where the input file did have the same variable, a new variable name would have to be used." [Underlines were the applicant's] ------------------- - or - "I guess it depends on the requirements, performance, but you could read the code first, save all the variables in a list, then read the code a second time, then you replace the variable to a new name, you can check to see if exists already." Without mentioning the school, this last graduated with a 3.5 and a Dean's Honor List distinction. Completely unable to think. --------------------- I wasn't intentionally picking the most lame ones, BTW; these were pretty much the ones on the top of the (reject) stack. Also to be fair, I make them hand-write the solutions, which is why the grammar is often not perfect (although, still pretty lame). -- Tim Behrendsen (tim@airshields.com) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 7+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1996-08-15 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 7+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <199608110535.WAA18572@pioneer.nevada.edu> 1996-08-11 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-12 0:00 ` Hiring tests (Re: What's the best language to start with) Ray Blaak 1996-08-13 0:00 ` What's the best language to start with Frank Manning 1996-08-13 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen 1996-08-15 0:00 ` Bob Kitzberger 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1996-08-14 0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
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