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From: wheeler@aphrodite.csed.ida.org (David Wheeler)
Subject: Re: C is 'better' than Ada because...
Date: 1996/08/01
Date: 1996-08-01T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4tqpqc$h1l@news.ida.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: EACHUS.96Jul30183149@spectre.mitre.org


In article <01bb7e2f$aeef4660$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com> "Tim Behrendsen" <tim@airshields.com> writes:

:   > The above are all worthwhile opimizations; I'm not claiming that
:   > optimizers do nothing.  All I'm saying is that too often programmers
:   > fall back on the lazy line, "Oh well, the compiler should take care
:   > of that."  For example, if I have ...

:   > for (i = 0; i < 10000000; ++i) 
:   >     array[i] *= abs(values[i]);

:   > Should I be *sure* this is going to be done efficiently, and use
:   > pointers, or should I just let the compiler handle it? I say that
:   > a competent programmer should use pointers out of habit, because
:   > its just good design and practice.

Actually, the assumption that C pointers always (or even usually)
generate better machine code is an urban legend.  On many
computer/compiler combinations, using arrays generally yields BETTER
performance.  This isn't just a recent occurance -- I changed C code
running on 8086's from using pointers to using arrays and produced
noticeable improvements.  This was a stupid C compiler, too.  AND I've
found that arrays are less likely to have bugs in them.

When you're _really_ concerned about performance, try different
approaches and MEASURE.  If you aren't measuring, then you aren't
very concerned about performance.  Code that gives the optimizer more
information (e.g. arrays not pointers) will often give better results
because it gives the optimizer more information to work with.  Sometimes
that isn't true, which is one reason why you need to measure.

If you're interested in performance, take a gander at the example
where a novice Ada coder beat experienced assembly language programmers (!)
because the optimizer could try out more approaches than the experts:
 [Elam 1992] Elam and Lawlis.  March 1992.  ``Ada Whips Assembly''.
   "http://www.seas.gwu.edu/seas/eecs/Research/ada/lawlis.html"

--- David





  reply	other threads:[~1996-08-01  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 272+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-06-19  0:00 C is 'better' than Ada because Alan Brain
1996-06-20  0:00 ` Ron Thompson
1996-06-22  0:00 ` Nasser Abbasi
1996-06-22  0:00   ` David Morton
1996-06-22  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-23  0:00       ` The Deviant
1996-06-23  0:00         ` John Winters
1996-06-23  0:00         ` Michael Feldman
1996-06-23  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-24  0:00         ` token%/etc/HOSTNAME
1996-06-23  0:00     ` John Winters
1996-06-23  0:00       ` David Morton
1996-06-23  0:00         ` John Winters
1996-06-23  0:00           ` David Morton
1996-06-23  0:00         ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-06-27  0:00           ` ) OH NO "...begs the question..." Ralph Silverman
1996-06-28  0:00             ` Bill Wendling
1996-06-30  0:00   ` C is 'better' than Ada because Nasser Abbasi
1996-06-23  0:00 ` Nasser Abbasi
1996-06-23  0:00   ` Fergus Henderson
1996-06-23  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-28  0:00       ` Fergus Henderson
     [not found] ` <874508446wnr@t-cubed.demon.co.uk>
1996-06-29  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-06-29  0:00 ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-06-29  0:00   ` Robert Dewar
1996-06-30  0:00   ` Fergus Henderson
1996-07-01  0:00     ` Mike Roske
1996-07-01  0:00       ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-02  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-03  0:00     ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-04  0:00       ` Ian Ward
1996-07-05  0:00         ` Peter Amey
1996-07-05  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-10  0:00             ` James A. Squire
1996-07-15  0:00               ` Oliver Kellogg
1996-07-16  0:00                 ` Oliver Kellogg
1996-07-18  0:00                   ` Fraser Wilson
1996-07-18  0:00                     ` Fergus Henderson
1996-07-19  0:00                   ` Keith Thompson
1996-07-17  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-11  0:00             ` James A. Squire
1996-07-16  0:00             ` Nasser Abbasi
1996-07-16  0:00               ` Mark A Biggar
1996-07-17  0:00             ` Laurent Guerby
1996-07-17  0:00               ` David Emery
1996-07-17  0:00             ` James A. Squire
1996-07-18  0:00             ` James A. Squire
1996-07-07  0:00           ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-08  0:00             ` Ian Ward
1996-07-18  0:00               ` Hamilton Link
1996-07-19  0:00                 ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-08  0:00             ` C is 'better' than Ada ... NOT!! Hugh Dunne
1996-07-08  0:00               ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-12  0:00                 ` C is 'better' than Ada because John F. Bode
1996-07-15  0:00                   ` Sandy McPherson
1996-07-18  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-19  0:00                       ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-19  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-20  0:00                       ` Michael Feldman
1996-07-21  0:00                         ` Alfonso Urdaneta
1996-07-21  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-22  0:00                             ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-22  0:00                               ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-26  0:00                               ` Richard Riehle
     [not found]                             ` <31f3c52e.238719470 <Pine.GSO.3.92.960726122347.25896E-100000@nunic.nu.edu>
1996-07-31  0:00                               ` Darrin Smith
1996-07-31  0:00                                 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-01  0:00                                 ` Jerry van Dijk
1996-08-06  0:00                                   ` Kirk Bradley
1996-08-09  0:00                                   ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-10  0:00                                     ` Craig Franck
1996-08-16  0:00                                       ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-18  0:00                                         ` Craig Franck
     [not found]                                       ` <Pine.GSO.3.92.960816102000. <4v5pis$4h1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
1996-08-18  0:00                                         ` David Weller
1996-08-15  0:00                                     ` Mike Stark
1996-08-02  0:00                                 ` Robert Dewar
     [not found]                             ` <31f3c52e.238719470 <4uj42h$j06@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
1996-08-11  0:00                               ` Doug & Rose Miller
1996-08-11  0:00                                 ` Craig Franck
1996-08-11  0:00                                   ` Doug & Rose Miller
1996-08-12  0:00                                     ` Craig Franck
1996-08-16  0:00                                       ` nasser
1996-08-11  0:00                             ` Jon S Anthony
     [not found]                             ` <31f3c52e.238719470 <4v5pis$4h1@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
1996-08-18  0:00                               ` Doug & Rose Miller
1996-08-20  0:00                                 ` Craig Franck
1996-07-23  0:00                         ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-27  0:00                       ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-27  0:00                         ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-07-29  0:00                         ` Ian Ward
1996-07-30  0:00                         ` Bob Cousins
1996-07-30  0:00                           ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-05  0:00                             ` Bob Cousins
1996-08-13  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-14  0:00                         ` Craig Franck
1996-08-28  0:00                           ` Van Snyder
1996-08-14  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-15  0:00                         ` Craig Franck
1996-08-15  0:00                           ` Joe Gwinn
1996-08-16  0:00                             ` Don Nelson
1996-08-19  0:00                               ` Joe Gwinn
1996-08-19  0:00                                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-28  0:00                         ` Van Snyder
1996-08-30  0:00                           ` Norman H. Cohen
1996-08-15  0:00                       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-20  0:00                         ` nasser
1996-08-15  0:00                       ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-07-19  0:00                     ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-08-15  0:00                     ` David Weller
1996-08-15  0:00                       ` William  C Brennan
1996-07-08  0:00               ` C is 'better' than Ada ... NOT!! Frank Manning
1996-07-08  0:00             ` C is 'better' than Ada because Robert Dewar
1996-07-10  0:00               ` Peter Hermann
1996-07-15  0:00                 ` Tim McGuire
1996-07-16  0:00                   ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-18  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-19  0:00                       ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-19  0:00                         ` Richard O'Rourke
1996-07-22  0:00                           ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-22  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-23  0:00                               ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-24  0:00                                 ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-24  0:00                                   ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-25  0:00                                     ` Alan Brain
1996-07-25  0:00                                     ` Steve Howard
1996-07-27  0:00                                     ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-07-26  0:00                                   ` Mike Roske
1996-07-25  0:00                                 ` Fergus Henderson
1996-07-25  0:00                                   ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-26  0:00                                     ` kennedy1
1996-07-26  0:00                                     ` Fergus Henderson
1996-07-23  0:00                               ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-24  0:00                                 ` JamesS1889
1996-07-24  0:00                                 ` Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-24  0:00                                 ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-27  0:00                                   ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-29  0:00                                     ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-07-30  0:00                                       ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-30  0:00                                         ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-07-30  0:00                                           ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-30  0:00                                         ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-29  0:00                                     ` Ada is 'better' than C because John Herro
1996-07-30  0:00                                       ` Brian Rogoff
1996-07-30  0:00                                         ` Adam Beneschan
1996-07-31  0:00                                         ` Franz Kruse
1996-08-04  0:00                                       ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00                                         ` Sandy McPherson
1996-08-06  0:00                                           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00                                             ` GAFFNEY.BRIAN
1996-08-07  0:00                                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-08  0:00                                             ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-08-08  0:00                                               ` Frank Lipski
1996-08-09  0:00                                             ` Sandy McPherson
1996-08-15  0:00                                             ` Mike Stark
1996-08-07  0:00                                           ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-08-08  0:00                                           ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-08  0:00                                             ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-29  0:00                                     ` C is 'better' than Ada because Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-30  0:00                                       ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-31  0:00                                         ` whiting_ms@corning.com (Matt Whiting)
1996-07-31  0:00                                         ` Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-31  0:00                                           ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-08-01  0:00                                             ` Alan Brain
1996-08-02  0:00                                               ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-08-05  0:00                                                 ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-15  0:00                                               ` Mike Roske
1996-08-15  0:00                                                 ` David Shochat
1996-08-16  0:00                                                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-16  0:00                                                 ` John Herro
1996-08-16  0:00                                                   ` John Herro
1996-08-16  0:00                                                 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-05  0:00                                             ` Robb Nebbe
1996-08-02  0:00                                           ` Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-30  0:00                                     ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-08-08  0:00                                     ` Ada is 'better' than C because William Clodius
1996-08-09  0:00                                       ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-09  0:00                                       ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-08-12  0:00                                       ` OBryan Anthony H
1996-08-12  0:00                                         ` Bob Kurtz
1996-08-12  0:00                                         ` Lawrence Kirby
1996-08-13  0:00                                         ` Tom Watson
1996-08-14  0:00                                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-29  0:00                                   ` C is 'better' than Ada because system
1996-07-30  0:00                                     ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-25  0:00                                 ` Alan Brain
1996-07-23  0:00                               ` Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-18  0:00                     ` Bob Gilbert
1996-07-19  0:00                       ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-10  0:00               ` John F. Bode
1996-07-11  0:00                 ` Mike Roske
     [not found]               ` <4rvr2j$2gb0@info4.rus.uni-s <nhn30yhw6t.fsf@paralysys>
1996-07-18  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-18  0:00                 ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-26  0:00                 ` Richard Riehle
1996-07-10  0:00             ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-07-10  0:00               ` Peter Seebach
1996-07-18  0:00             ` Brian Rogoff
1996-07-19  0:00             ` James A. Squire
1996-07-29  0:00             ` William Clodius
1996-07-30  0:00               ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-31  0:00                 ` Tim Behrendsen
     [not found]                   ` <9608020139.AA29105@pulsar.telesoft>
1996-08-02  0:00                     ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-05  0:00                       ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-08-06  0:00                         ` is Ada 'better' than C? (Was: Re: C is 'better' than Ada because...) Antoine Leca
1996-08-06  0:00                           ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-30  0:00               ` C is 'better' than Ada because Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-07-30  0:00                 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-01  0:00                   ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-01  0:00                     ` Ian Ward
1996-07-31  0:00               ` Ralph Silverman
1996-07-30  0:00             ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-01  0:00               ` David Wheeler [this message]
1996-07-30  0:00             ` William Clodius
1996-08-01  0:00               ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-01  0:00             ` Olivier Devuns @pulsar
1996-08-11  0:00             ` Ada 95 is a FREE language (was: C is 'better' than Ada because...) Laurent Guerby
1996-08-11  0:00             ` C is 'better' than Ada because Jon S Anthony
1996-08-12  0:00               ` Craig Franck
1996-08-12  0:00                 ` John Howard
1996-08-13  0:00                   ` Craig Franck
1996-08-13  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-14  0:00                       ` Craig Franck
1996-08-12  0:00                 ` James A. Squire
1996-08-12  0:00                   ` Craig Franck
1996-08-14  0:00                 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
1996-08-14  0:00                 ` Stephen M O'Shaughnessy
     [not found]                 ` <Pine.GS <gwinn-1908961215100001@smc19.ed.ray.com>
1996-08-19  0:00                   ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-13  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-13  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-14  0:00             ` Norman H. Cohen
1996-08-19  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-20  0:00               ` Craig Franck
1996-08-20  0:00             ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-21  0:00               ` Craig Franck
1996-08-27  0:00             ` Valentin Bonnard
1996-07-06  0:00         ` Walter B. Hollman Sr.
1996-07-05  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-07-08  0:00         ` Peter Hermann
1996-07-09  0:00           ` Dirk Dickmanns
1996-07-12  0:00       ` ntxbow
1996-07-15  0:00         ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-07-15  0:00           ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-16  0:00           ` Ian Ward
1996-07-17  0:00             ` Dale Stanbrough
1996-07-23  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-07-29  0:00       ` William Clodius
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Darin Johnson
1996-08-01  0:00         ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-08-16  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-07-01  0:00 ` James A. Squire
1996-07-02  0:00 ` Darin Johnson
1996-07-03  0:00   ` If your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails (was Re: C is 'better' than Ada because...) Bruce Clement
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-07-30  0:00 C is 'better' than Ada because Spasmo
     [not found] ` <01bb7e29$61e3d260$87ee6fce@timpent.airshields.com>
1996-07-31  0:00   ` Bob Kitzberger
1996-07-31  0:00     ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-07-31  0:00 ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-02  0:00     ` Ralph Silverman
1996-08-01  0:00 William Clodius
1996-08-03  0:00 ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-05  0:00   ` Kevin D. Quitt
1996-08-05  0:00 ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-08-05  0:00 ` William Clodius
1996-08-01  0:00 Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-02  0:00 ` Mark McKinney
1996-08-02  0:00 ` David Bonham
     [not found] ` <9608061851.AA17508@camo.brc.shell.com>
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Tim Behrendsen
1996-08-04  0:00 @#$%!?!
     [not found] <Pine.GSO.>
     [not found] ` <4 <4vb399$kt8@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
1996-08-20  0:00   ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-20  0:00     ` Craig Franck
1996-08-21  0:00     ` Mike Roske
1996-08-21  0:00       ` William  C Brennan
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