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From: rav@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au (++           robin)
Subject: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?
Date: 1996/08/01
Date: 1996-08-01T00:00:00+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4totv7$o9f@goanna.cs.rmit.edu.au> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 31FE35BC.1A0D@sanders.lockheed.com


	Steve O'Neill <smoneill@sanders.lockheed.com> writes:

	>++ robin wrote:
	>> ---I think the real lessons are that
	>> 1. real-time programming requires special expertise.

	>Agreed wholeheartedly

	>> 2. the choice of language is suspect.  A better-established
	>>    language such as PL/I -- specifically designed for
	>>    real-time programming -- with robust compilers, and
	>>    with its base of experienced programming
	>>    staff could well have prevented this disaster.

	>I disagree completely!  The language was not the
	>problem the design decisions in how the language 
	>was used were.

---The choice of language is indeed very relevant.
What I wrote in an earlier posting on this topic is highly
apt:

"A PL/I programmer
experienced with real time systems, would have CHALLENGED
such a stupid requirement that the computer be shut down by the
error-handler in the event of a fixed-point overflow.  He would
have had it changed.

"I'd go further to say that no experienced PL/I programmer
would have shut down the system as a result of a fixed-point
overflow.

"Furthermore, he would have included a check that the value
did not go out of range;"

	>Ada is completely capable the realm [sic]
	>of real-time programming, has robust 
	>compilers and tools, and has quite a few experienced
	>software engineers capable of implementing 
	>just about any requirements thrown their way (been there, done that).  

	>Had the designers of the system allowed the
	>implementors to use Ada exception mechanisms fully 
	>and properly they could have localized the failure
	>to, at worst, the alignment function

---But all it needed was a check that the value was in range.
Such checks had been included on other similar conversions in
the vicinity!

	>(which 
	>was not necessary at the time of the failure anyway)

---what?  The OBC was using the attitude information to
direct the nozzles.  It was their [the nozzles] sudden change
that caused the space vehicle to break up, thereby forcing
the vehicle to self-destruct automatically [that sudden
change was the result of the OBC interpreting the error
readout from the shut-down SRI computer as attitide data.]

	> without shutting down the entire device.  
	>Instead, as is common practice in the safety-
	>critical world, local exception handlers are 
	>frequently banned and a global 'shut it all
	>down' handler is the only stop gap measure.  
	>Unbelievably the rationale for disallowing local
	>handlers is because they make it difficult to 
	>verify complete code coverage since they are
	>only executed in the case of exceptional conditions 

---As I wrote in an earlier post:

"This project might well have been written in PL/I, which
has excellent real-time facilities, including error
handling, error simulation and validation facilities.
The language has robust compilers, and experts with many
years of PL/I programming experience.

"As to PL/I facilities, I refer to the SIGNAL statement,
with which given conditions (errors such as fixed-point
overflow) can be signalled as if the condition (error)
actually occurred.

"This alone would have showed up the deficiency of the
overall design (that the system would shut itself down for
fixed-point overflow)."

	>(i.e. given the expected data (Ariane 4 profile)
	>the handlers are not executed and therefore we 
	>can't prove that all of our code has been
	>exercised at least once).

---But they can be, and shown to be, in PL/I -- the language
with the right tools -- with the SIGNAL statement.  That
statement leaves an indisputable footprint!

	>I find this logic suspect in 
	>the extreme!  As somebody once said "expect the
	>unexpected".  In addition to trying for fault 
	>avoidance through analysis we should also be
	>planning for fault resiliency in the presence of 
	>reality.

---Exactly what I wrote in an earlier posting.

	>You're other conclusions are right on target
	>though - you should never shut a system down 
	>(unless its presence is impacting system performance
	>as in the case of babbling nodes et.al.) but 
	>do indicate its distress to a higher authority
	>who then can take this into account in using the 
	>information provided.

	>Steve O'Neill                      | "No,no,no, don't tug on that!
	>Sanders, A Lockheed Martin Company |  You never know what it might
	>smoneill@sanders.lockheed.com      |  be attached to." 




  parent reply	other threads:[~1996-08-01  0:00 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 194+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
1996-07-25  0:00 Ariane 5 - not an exception? Simon Bluck
1996-07-25  0:00 ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) Kirk Beitz
1996-07-26  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-26  0:00   ` ++           robin
1996-08-05  0:00     ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-06  0:00       ` U32872
1996-08-07  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-10  0:00               ` dwnoon
1996-08-11  0:00                 ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-15  0:00                   ` dwnoon
1996-08-16  0:00                     ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00                       ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00                 ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-15  0:00                 ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-22  0:00                   ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00                     ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-31  0:00                     ` Ada versus PL/I " Richard Riehle
1996-09-02  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-02  0:00                         ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-09-03  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-03  0:00                             ` Robb Nebbe
1996-09-17  0:00                             ` shmuel
1996-09-17  0:00                               ` Jay McFadyen
1996-09-18  0:00                                 ` John McCabe
1996-09-20  0:00                               ` shmuel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-07  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-06  0:00                             ` PL/I or PL/1 Larry Hazel
1996-09-03  0:00                       ` Ada versus PL/I (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) J. Kanze
1996-09-07  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                           ` ++           robin
1996-09-09  0:00                             ` Robert Dewar
1996-09-09  0:00                               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-11  0:00                     ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 " J.Worringen
1996-09-12  0:00                       ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` David Alex Lamb
1996-09-14  0:00                       ` Use DejaNews to retrieve Ariane discussion David Alex Lamb
1996-09-19  0:00                         ` Earl H. Kinmonth
1996-08-11  0:00               ` Multiple reasons for failure of Ariane 5 (was: Re: Ariane 5 - not an exception?) ++           robin
     [not found]               ` <4uibvh$References: <Dv45EJ.8r@fsa.bris.ac.uk>
1996-08-16  0:00                 ` A. Grant
1996-08-08  0:00         ` bohn
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-23  0:00     ` ++           robin
1996-08-23  0:00       ` Richard A. O'Keefe
1996-08-23  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-28  0:00             ` Larry Kilgallen
1996-08-29  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00               ` David Weller
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` Sandy McPherson
1996-09-09  0:00                   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00         ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-26  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-26  0:00         ` Dave Jones
1996-08-27  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-30  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-09-04  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-09-06  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-09-18  0:00               ` Merlin Dorfman
1996-09-20  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-30  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-30  0:00           ` John McCabe
1996-09-06  0:00       ` Jon S Anthony
1996-09-06  0:00         ` Robert Dewar
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? Theodore E. Dennison
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-26  0:00 ` JP Thornley
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-07-29  0:00   ` JP Thornley
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-07-31  0:00     ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Alan Brain
1996-08-02  0:00         ` JP Thornley
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-26  0:00 ` Bob Gilbert
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-30  0:00     ` John McCabe
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Greg Bond
1996-08-03  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-07-26  0:00 ` ++           robin
1996-07-29  0:00   ` Bill Angel
1996-07-29  0:00     ` Paul_Green
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Bob Kurtz
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Richard Shetron
1996-07-30  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Nancy Mead
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Tucker Taft
1996-08-01  0:00       ` root
1996-08-01  0:00         ` Tucker Taft
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Ken Garlington
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Lloyd Fischer
1996-08-04  0:00     ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-06  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-05  0:00       ` John McCabe
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Fergus Henderson
1996-08-13  0:00       ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Darren C Davenport
1996-08-13  0:00         ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Kirk Bradley
1996-08-14  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-18  0:00           ` PL/I Versus Ada (Was: Arianne ...) Richard Riehle
1996-08-19  0:00             ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-20  0:00             ` Lon Amick
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-28  0:00               ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-29  0:00                 ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-30  0:00                   ` Tony Konashenok
1996-08-30  0:00                     ` Adam Beneschan
1996-08-30  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Lon D. Gowen, Ph.D.
1996-08-21  0:00             ` Tim Dugan
1996-08-23  0:00             ` arbuckj
1996-08-22  0:00           ` Ariane 5 - not an exception? ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-14  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-19  0:00           ` Chris Papademetrious
1996-08-22  0:00           ` ++           robin
1996-08-22  0:00             ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-22  0:00             ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-24  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-26  0:00                   ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-27  0:00                     ` John McCabe
1996-08-28  0:00                       ` Byron B. Kauffman
1996-08-28  0:00                         ` Robert Dewar
1996-08-29  0:00                           ` Ted Dennison
1996-08-30  0:00                         ` John McCabe
1996-08-23  0:00             ` Bob Gilbert
1996-08-24  0:00               ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-25  0:00                 ` John McCabe
1996-08-27  0:00                 ` Tom Speer
1996-08-26  0:00               ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-20  0:00         ` Richard Riehle
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-02  0:00     ` Craig P. Beyers
1996-07-30  0:00   ` Steve O'Neill
1996-07-31  0:00     ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-07-31  0:00       ` Nigel Tzeng
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-01  0:00     ` ++           robin [this message]
1996-08-01  0:00       ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-05  0:00         ` John McCabe
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Mark van Walraven
1996-08-06  0:00           ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-02  0:00       ` Pascal Martin @lone
1996-08-03  0:00         ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-08-05  0:00           ` system
1996-08-06  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Darius Blasband
1996-08-10  0:00             ` dwnoon
1996-08-12  0:00               ` Thomas Kendelbacher
1996-08-13  0:00                 ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00             ` Roy Gardiner
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00               ` Lance Kibblewhite
1996-08-13  0:00             ` ++           robin
1996-08-15  0:00             ` Richard Riehle
1996-08-05  0:00       ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Frank Manning
1996-08-08  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Pat Rogers
1996-08-09  0:00           ` JP Thornley
1996-08-06  0:00         ` Francis Lipski
1996-08-07  0:00           ` Martin Tom Brown
1996-08-09  0:00             ` Ken Garlington
1996-08-13  0:00         ` ++           robin
1996-08-13  0:00           ` Steve O'Neill
1996-08-01  0:00   ` Jon S Anthony
1996-08-02  0:00   ` James Kanze US/ESC 60/3/141 #40763
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Robert I. Eachus
1996-08-06  0:00   ` Stefan 'Stetson' Skoglund
1996-07-27  0:00 ` Bill Angel
1996-07-30  0:00 ` Dr. Richard Botting
1996-07-30  0:00   ` David Weller
1996-07-30  0:00     ` Robert Dewar
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1996-08-08  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-09  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
1996-08-13  0:00 Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
1996-08-15  0:00 ` John McCabe
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