Re: What's the best language to start with? [was: Re: Should I learn C or Pascal?]

[tim@franck (Tim Hollebeek)]

AJ Musgrove (amusgrov@varmm.com) wrote:

: I also recomend compiled with the "generate assembly" option when a
: programmer first starts learning C, so really see what that codes becomes in
: assembly. (option is -s on most unix systems).

Hmm, isn't it usually -S ?  Also, I wouldn't suggest showing this to
newbie programmers unless you force them to look at the output from at
least two different compilers on two different platforms.  Some of the
_worst_ C I've seen comes from attempts to write, for example, x86 ML
in C.

: : C must me learned before C++, that's a point since C++ is a really more 
: : complex superset.
: The first C++ "compilers" really only generated C code, and compiled it.
: Most C compilers still really only generate assembly, then assemble it. They
: don't do strait to binary/machine format.

Actually, if you're going to learn C++, I'd suggest avoiding C, and
going back to it later.  Many things that are necessary to write C
programs, while available in C++, can be completely avoided.  String
and output handling, for example, differs widely.

: : Understanding the machine architecture is one thing, using assembly 
: : languages is another.  There's no real interest in knowing all the 
: : mnemonics of a peculiar assembly language for a C coder: knowing how 
: : stacks work or how system calls are performed is enough to make efficient 
: : C programs.

I agree with this sentiment.

: In the military, soldiers are taught how to disassemble guns.
: Why? There are people who could do that for them. If one FULLY understands the
: tools they are using, one can use them better. Period.

That particular tool only, though.  Too much code is written with a
particular compiler in mind, instead of writing clear code that can
compiled well for _any_ platform.

For example:

x *= 16; /* will be compiled well by any decent compiler, probably
            generating a bitshift operation if available */

x <<= 4; /* Harder to read, and will generate _slower_ code on many
	    architectures which lack a multibit shift operation */

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