Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[Ted Dennison]

tmoran@bix.com wrote:
> 
> In <3159B312.6F38@escmail.orl.mmc.com> Ted Dennison said:
> >$1,200 a year is about what support for most commercial development
> >environments runs.
>   Perhaps that's standard in your experience, but it's way high in
> my world.  I'm quite surprised that some folks feel the battle for
> 'cheap Ada compilers' has been won when the compiler is free (but
> updates cost $1200/year).  Must be different accounting systems.

That would be a suprising opinion. Luckily it's wrong. Gnat updates
are (mostly) free. All you have to do is go get one. If you want
you can even make one yourself from the sources. In the commercial
world, you would have to pay whatever the "support" fee is for a
yearly update. That would typically run you around a grand.

Again, I DO see where a grand is a lot of money for an individual
to pay for support. I just don't buy the argument that this is a
problem unique to Gnat. EVERYONE charges a lot for support.

-- 
T.E.D.          
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Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[Robert Dewar]

tmoran said

"  Perhaps that's standard in your experience, but it's way high in
my world.  I'm quite surprised that some folks feel the battle for
'cheap Ada compilers' has been won when the compiler is free (but
updates cost $1200/year).  Must be different accounting systems."

I guess there is some considerable confusion here. New versions of
GNAT are released frequently, for example, the most recent release
of the OS/2 version was about two months ago. All updates to
GNAT are available free of charge. 

The $1200/year is for commercial level support, it is not a payment
for updates! Most people looking for a free or very cheap Ada compiler,
are not looking for commercial support, and one of the nice things
about the free software model is that it can accomodoate both extremes
(people who want something free to work with informally, and people
who want a tool supporting serious development and can afford what
that costs).

But to repeat again, all updates to GNAT are publically released,
and ACT is committed to continuing availability of versions that
it supports. 

'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[tmoran]

In <3159B312.6F38@escmail.orl.mmc.com> Ted Dennison said:
>$1,200 a year is about what support for most commercial development
>environments runs.
  Perhaps that's standard in your experience, but it's way high in
my world.  I'm quite surprised that some folks feel the battle for
'cheap Ada compilers' has been won when the compiler is free (but
updates cost $1200/year).  Must be different accounting systems.

Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[tmoran]

>Gnat updates are (mostly) free.  All you have to do is go get one.
  It's true that the GNAT updates that exist are free.  But it's
been stated that if we want to see very many updates, a bunch of
people need to pay $1200/person/year for support (or donate work).
(Maybe GNAT should do 'pledge breaks'.  ;)

>In the commercial world, you would have to pay whatever the
>"support" fee is for a yearly update.  That would typically run you
>around a grand.
  I haven't been to the local Egghead lately - is a grand a year
what Borland and Microsoft are charging for C++ or Visual Basic
these days?  I just got an Alsys ad in the mail for three ActivAda
products at $99, $595, and $995.  Does their 'optional subscription
plan' for these cost $1K?  As I recall RR's one year support with
upgrades cost more like a tenth of that.   I suspect, in fact, that
most people don't buy support contracts for either GNAT or commercial
software.

Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[Ted Dennison]

tmoran@bix.com wrote:
> 
> >In the commercial world, you would have to pay whatever the
> >"support" fee is for a yearly update.  That would typically run you
> >around a grand.
>   I haven't been to the local Egghead lately - is a grand a year
> what Borland and Microsoft are charging for C++ or Visual Basic
> these days?  I just got an Alsys ad in the mail for three ActivAda
> products at $99, $595, and $995.  Does their 'optional subscription
> plan' for these cost $1K?  As I recall RR's one year support with

Uhhh, I just posted that information yesterday. 

Let's see if I can find it.....
...ah! Here it is:

Ted Dennison wrote:

>$1,200 a year is about what support for most commercial development
>environments runs. An example from a study we did about 1.5 years
>ago showed the following support prices:
> For Ada compilers
>   VADSSELF HP 9000     $1,356 /year/user
>   VADSSELF Windows NT  $1,000 /year/user
>   AdaWorld HP 9000     $1,600 /year 1 user (price per user goes down
>                                             as more users are added)
>   AdaWorld NT          $600 /year/user
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

As you can tell from the other prices listed, this is very competitive,
but still approaching the $1000 range.

As for any "subscription" plan, I don't see where that can be an issue,
because no matter what the price of this plan, gnat updates are cheaper.

-- 
T.E.D.          
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Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[Robert Dewar]

tmoran said

It's true that the GNAT updates that exist are free.  But it's
been stated that if we want to see very many updates, a bunch of
people need to pay $1200/person/year for support (or donate work).
(Maybe GNAT should do 'pledge breaks'.  ;)

   Well certainly the frequency of distribution and quality of GNAT ports
   will be a function of the resources available for the various ports.
   No one is handing out free resources in this world. For example, the
   Amiga port of GNAT is at some very out of date level, simply because
   not enough people are interested.

   The OS/2 version is somewhere in between, actually the commercial
   interest in the OS/2 version of GNAT is comparable to the interest
   in the Amiga version, but luckily for the non-paying OS/2 customers,
   Robert Dewar is an OS/2 fan and not an Amiga fan. In fact I find it
   disappointing that, compared to other targets, there is so little
   interest in the OS/2 version. Alsys found much the same disappointing
   reaction to their OS/2 version.

"I haven't been to the local Egghead lately - is a grand a year
what Borland and Microsoft are charging for C++ or Visual Basic
these days?  I just got an Alsys ad in the mail for three ActivAda
products at $99, $595, and $995.  Does their 'optional subscription
plan' for these cost $1K?  As I recall RR's one year support with
upgrades cost more like a tenth of that.   I suspect, in fact, that
most people don't buy support contracts for either GNAT or commercial
software."

   Well remember we charge nothing for updates. The support we provide
   is indeed far more than casual users would want to pay, and there
   are, happilly many casual users of Ada 95! It is a premium service
   for those who need the kind of support level we provide. Our aim
   is to ensure that our paying customers using GNAT succeed, and
   that often requires a significant amount of help and advice as
   well as help in navigating around errors in various components
   of the system, including operating systems errors.

   You obviusly need to choose the Ada product and support plan that
   suits your needs. GNAT is available free, and we accept problem
   reports from all users -- many users have commented that even the
   free service we provide seems pretty good to them. On the other
   hand our commercial support services are aimed at those with critical
   projects who need a high level of support. The only way we could
   charge less is to give less support, and we don't see that as a
   service that is useful. In the world of demanding applications,
   there are no B- grades for 50% success, there are only A's and
   F's, and we are committed to our commercial users getting A's!

Robert Dewar
Ada Core Technologies

P.S. Ted, you shouldn't complain too much at all those people who are paying
what seems to you to be a high price for support. They are the ones who are
making possible the continued distribution of free versions of GNAT for
OS/2 and other systems :-)

P.P.S. Really the issue for the continued health of the OS/2 version of
GNAT has little to do with commercial support (I really don't anticipate
the OS/2 version ever being self-supporting). Instead you just have to
hope that Robert Dewar continues to like using OS/2 :-)

Re: 'cheap Ada compilers', was Re: GNAT 3.03 for OS/2

[Tarjei Jensen]

In article <dewar.828063927@schonberg> dewar@cs.nyu.edu (Robert Dewar) writes:


> In fact I find it
> disappointing that, compared to other targets, there is so little
> interest in the OS/2 version. Alsys found much the same disappointing
> reaction to their OS/2 version.

If they found it disappointing then they might have considered promoting it. I
have yet to see an Ada article in a os/2 magazine. I have yet to see any
presence of any Ada company in the os/2 news groups. Constrast this with the
shareware Speed Pascal product which was started long after GNAT was available
for OS/2.

The fact is that hardly any os/2 user knows that there is an Ada compiler
available. With the current attempts at promoting Ada in OS/2 environments it is
highly likely to stay that way.


Greetings,

 
 
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