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From: Maciej Sobczak <see.my.homepage@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Intervention needed?
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 00:01:40 -0700 (PDT)
Date: 2019-03-28T00:01:40-07:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4e240c66-dce8-417f-9147-a53973681e29@googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87a7hgvxnx.fsf@nightsong.com>

> > For some N% of Ada programs, will a computation of a proof be
> > predictably finished in time? .. Static knowledge is a privilege not
> > shared by many, or much, I suppose.
> 
> If you haven't got some reasoning in your head that the program is
> pointer-correct, you shouldn't deploy it.

This is an appealing perspective, but I agree that the privilege is not available in all situations (SPARK allows unchecked portions of code for a reason).

Which brings a potentially interesting question - what if the reasoning in my head has a continuous measure of correctness? Like, say, I'm 95% confident that the reasoning is correct? Should I deploy my system or not? The mechanical proof will fail 100% of the time, but that does not mean that the software is entirely useless for my user, who also has his own continuous measure of risk and level of failure acceptance.

The ability to work with continuous measures is what is practiced in every other engineering discipline (including critical ones!), yet the formal-method priests like you prevent me from deploying my acceptably correct programs. I find it a *limitation* of your methods, not mine.

Could you please fix your methods so that I can deploy my almost-certainly-correct system, like everybody else does, instead of forcing me to use tools that are demonstrably unfit for today's market needs? Thank you.

(disclaimer: playing the devil's advocate for a reason)

-- 
Maciej Sobczak * http://www.inspirel.com


  reply	other threads:[~2019-03-28  7:01 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 146+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-03-08 16:43 Intervention needed? Olivier Henley
2019-03-08 16:58 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-08 17:31 ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 14:31   ` antispam
2019-03-11 15:07     ` gautier_niouzes
2019-03-11 17:19     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 15:34 ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 17:30   ` Simon Wright
2019-03-11 17:42     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-11 18:14       ` AdaMagica
2019-03-11 19:52   ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-11 20:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-11 22:08   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12  2:04     ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 13:17       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 16:32       ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-12 16:56         ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 17:20           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 18:14         ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-12 19:21           ` Lucretia
2019-03-12 21:53             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13 10:50               ` Jere
2019-03-17 12:52               ` Optikos
2019-03-17 16:37                 ` Luke A. Guest
2019-03-17 16:48                 ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  0:49                   ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:04                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:19                       ` Optikos
2019-03-18 23:36                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  2:18                   ` Optikos
2019-03-19  8:44                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-19  9:53                       ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:13                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:26                           ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-20  1:08                             ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:26                               ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 15:56                                 ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-23 21:38                                   ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 22:36                           ` Optikos
2019-03-19 23:13                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-20  1:28                               ` Jere
2019-03-20  8:42                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22  2:00                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22 11:10                                   ` Jere
2019-03-23  8:03                                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 21:32                                       ` Jere
2019-03-20  7:59                               ` Optikos
2019-03-22  2:16                                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  8:38                                   ` Optikos
2019-03-22 10:54                                     ` Jere
2019-03-23  7:53                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-23 13:59                                         ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:19                                           ` Jere
2019-03-23 21:29                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-26  8:09                                           ` Optikos
2019-03-20  1:20                           ` Jere
2019-03-22  2:30                             ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-22  9:08                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-22 22:23                                 ` Optikos
2019-03-27 19:20                                   ` G. B.
2019-03-27 21:02                                     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  7:01                                       ` Maciej Sobczak [this message]
2019-03-28  7:17                                         ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  8:39                                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-30  4:31                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-30 22:14                                           ` Robert A Duff
2019-03-30 22:55                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-28  9:06                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28 20:48                                           ` G. B.
2019-03-29  5:13                                             ` Bojan Bozovic
2019-03-29  8:13                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-29  6:57                                           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-29  7:13                                             ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-29  8:39                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 15:13                                               ` Optikos
2019-04-01 16:51                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-01 21:42                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-02  8:30                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-02 15:53                                                       ` Anh Vo
2019-03-19 22:04                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19 22:22                         ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-19 23:01                           ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-19  9:37                     ` Optikos
2019-03-19 22:21                       ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:56                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:17                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:35                       ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:17                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 17:41               ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-29 22:16                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-29 22:43                   ` Florian Weimer
2019-04-01 21:29                     ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-01 22:14                       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-02 21:55                         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-04 15:07                           ` Simon Wright
2019-03-12 21:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-13  9:10     ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-03-13 11:08       ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:11         ` Jere
2019-03-13 11:59         ` Jere
2019-03-13 13:44       ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-13 15:56         ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:25           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14  0:40             ` Simon Wright
2019-03-13 16:27           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-14 22:41         ` Randy Brukardt
2019-03-16 21:30           ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-29 17:38     ` Florian Weimer
2019-03-13 13:23 ` Olivier Henley
2019-03-22 11:10 ` Lucretia
2019-03-22 14:09   ` J-P. Rosen
2019-03-22 16:41   ` Jeffrey R. Carter
2019-03-22 17:29     ` Paul Rubin
2019-03-22 22:36       ` Optikos
2019-04-01  7:28 ` gautier_niouzes
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-03-25 19:14 Randy Brukardt
2019-03-25 20:44 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-03-28  0:48 ` Jere
2019-04-02 22:07 Randy Brukardt
2019-04-03  7:29 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 14:31   ` Optikos
2019-04-03 14:54     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 15:29       ` Optikos
2019-04-03 16:16       ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:15         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-03 21:12           ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04  7:09             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  5:44           ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-04  7:17             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2019-04-04  7:22             ` Paul Rubin
2019-04-04  8:37               ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-05  0:13                 ` Randy Brukardt
2019-04-05  5:45                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2019-04-05 15:17                   ` Optikos
2019-04-06  1:38                     ` Jere
2019-04-06  4:25                       ` alby.gamper
2019-04-06  6:49                         ` Jere
2019-04-06  8:24                           ` alby.gamper
2019-04-04 12:28             ` Simon Wright
2019-04-04 16:17           ` Optikos
2019-04-03 15:07 ` Lucretia
2019-04-03 16:15   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 17:23 ` Niklas Holsti
2019-04-03 17:48   ` Bill Findlay
2019-04-03 21:01   ` Simon Wright
2019-04-03 18:58 ` Dennis Lee Bieber
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