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From: Georg Bauhaus <rm.dash-bauhaus@futureapps.de>
Subject: Re: How do I write directly to a memory address?
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 15:58:44 +0100
Date: 2011-02-07T15:58:45+01:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4d5008a5$0$6879$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <737a6396-72bd-4a1e-8895-7d50f287960e@d28g2000yqc.googlegroups.com>

On 07.02.11 14:56, Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> This bad style had
> a lot of influence on the programmers of 15 years ago whose code I
> must now maintain.

Exactly.  Style has, by hypothesis, a strong impact on on code
quality, since programming patterns and programming idioms are
passed on at every stage of becoming outdated.  Programmers will
copy idioms with little consideration, especially when idioms
have become associated with revered authors, first edition.
They are not updated.  They are also not updated because
compilers will not reject old code.


> In Ada, this bad style is simply not possible.

It sure is possible to write awful and dangerous Ada text, even
with the dangers hidden.  While this style is possible, Ada culture
is less tolerant. (Or, more skeptical of the "practical" programmer.)


> In Ada, "in" really means "in".

No, "in" is intended to mean "in".  There are two reasons that
this is not an unbreakable property. The first is demonstrated by
Ada.Numerics.Discrete_Random.Random.
But Random is the exception rather than the rule, Ada tradition
promotes the reverse effect of what C tradition promotes, I think:
by Ada's default, by the traditional idiom, "in" stands for "in".
(In the case of void safety, the language discussions include
comments bemoaning that we'll have to write "not null"
instead of marking the reverse case (may be null), thus underlining
the tradition.)

The second reason that "in" need not mean "in" is less brutal:
it is the possibility of write access to a parameter object
from within the function if the objects is also a global object.
(Global to the function).  (Whence Ada getting "in out" parameters
for functions is considered an act of honesty, if I understand
comment in ARG mail correctly.)  Again, this kind of access is
considered by style (and is also possible in C).


>> For further ammunition for Verdun style language comparisons,
>> see function Ada.Numerics.Discrete_Random.Random.
> 
> What does that mean?

It means that Ada function Ada.Numerics.Discrete_Random.Random
only works because it violates its "contract".  The parameter (a
generator object) is passed "in", but is modified. Its mutation
is one effect of calling function Random.


>> I think there are better arguments.
> 
> No.

Yes, and you have named them.  They seem to have a little less
to do with the language definitions, but rather with "encouragement"
to write your intentions properly.
(In at least one video (lecture? Ada UK?) Robert Dewar
has been emphasizing a cultural issue a few times).



  reply	other threads:[~2011-02-07 14:58 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 381+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-02-03  5:52 How do I write directly to a memory address? Syntax Issues
2011-02-03  8:00 ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-03  8:01   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 13:34   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-02-03  8:08 ` mockturtle
2011-02-03 18:07   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 13:43   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-02-08 21:07     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  2:21     ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-03  8:24 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-03 10:50   ` Syntax Issues
2011-02-03 11:03   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-03 18:24   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-04  9:21     ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-03 21:30   ` Florian Weimer
2011-02-04  9:24   ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-04 10:31     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-04 11:07       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-04 17:35       ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-04 16:00     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-04 17:40       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-04 18:35         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-05  5:17           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-04 21:36       ` Shark8
2011-02-04 23:00       ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-05  0:20         ` John B. Matthews
2011-02-05 14:56       ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-07 14:59         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-07 16:24           ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 16:44             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-07 17:02               ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-01 20:27             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-01 20:47               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:17                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-01 21:37                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:54                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  8:42                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 14:36                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:30                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 15:40                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 16:25                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 16:40                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 18:44                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 18:59                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 17:21                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 17:40                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 18:04                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 18:29                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:55                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 22:10                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  8:14                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03  8:04                                 ` Simon Wright
2011-03-03  8:23                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03  8:50                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  7:54                               ` Simon Wright
2011-03-02 20:34                   ` KK6GM
2011-03-02 20:59                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:03                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-02 21:13                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:34                           ` KK6GM
2011-03-03  1:09                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  1:38                               ` KK6GM
2011-03-03  2:42                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02 23:18                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-02 23:26                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  0:46                               ` Edward Fish
2011-03-03  1:03                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  3:01                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-03  6:05                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  8:52                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 17:51                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 18:32                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 20:08                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:55                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 22:08                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 20:34                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-04  0:22                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-04  3:21                                         ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-04 16:48                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:24                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-03 21:32                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:39                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-03 21:44                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 22:28                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-01 21:52               ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-01 22:08                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  0:41                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02  2:59                     ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-03  1:44                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02 14:26                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 14:34                       ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-02 14:59                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:19                           ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-02 15:35                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:49                           ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-02 16:03                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  2:23                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-03  5:48                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  9:19                   ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-02  9:31                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02  9:45                       ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-02 10:24                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 11:16                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 14:51                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-06 17:49     ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-06 18:18       ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-06 19:05         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-06 20:01           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-06 21:27             ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-06 23:08               ` Shark8
2011-02-07  6:38                 ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-07  7:23                   ` Shark8
2011-02-07  8:31                     ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-07 12:31                       ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-07 12:42                         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-07 21:54                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-08  0:21                             ` Bill Findlay
2011-02-08  1:06                             ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-21  7:17                               ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 12:46                             ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 13:12                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-08 18:03                               ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-07  8:38               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07  9:05                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-07  9:24                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 23:11                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-08 18:14                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 21:48                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-09  8:43                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 21:07                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-09 21:38                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:45                                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-07  9:00             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 13:43               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-07 13:56                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 14:58                   ` Georg Bauhaus [this message]
2011-02-07 15:21                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 16:14                       ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 17:23                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 18:38                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-07 21:38                           ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 22:41                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-07 18:10                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-07 19:27                         ` Simon Wright
2011-02-07 19:29                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 16:54                     ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 17:55                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08  8:04                         ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08  9:01                           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-08  9:08                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08  9:43                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 19:53                             ` Shark8
2011-02-08  9:46                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08  9:58                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:03                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:08                                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:27                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:15                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-08 16:48                                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 18:25                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 20:48                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:24                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 21:41                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09  8:59                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:25                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:03                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:19                                                 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 21:10                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:42                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:24                               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 18:27                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 18:43                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 10:10                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:14                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:31                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 18:30                               ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 18:47                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:11                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-08 20:27                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:52                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:21                                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 21:35                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09  0:03                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09  0:14                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:51                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10  4:30                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-11  2:16                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 15:34                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 16:15                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 16:43                                             ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 17:49                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 17:54                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:15                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:25                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 20:16                                                   ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 20:33                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 16:48                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 17:49                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:07                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:36                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 19:12                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:41                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-09 20:00                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:25                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:20                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:23                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:40                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 23:59                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-09 20:01                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:56                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:47                                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 21:51                                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 21:56                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:01                                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-10  3:08                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 22:31                                                   ` Anonymous
2011-02-09 22:34                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:41                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:52                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
     [not found]                                                 ` <4d52d7d9$0$18057$882e7ee2@usenet-news.ne t>
2011-02-10  3:03                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 18:23                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:31                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:20                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 19:43                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:29                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:26                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:40                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09 22:09                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:23                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 22:31                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:38                                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:50                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  0:16                                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-10 15:28                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 16:38                                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-10 16:46                                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:23                                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10 17:33                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 23:07                                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 23:24                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  0:35                                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-10 15:38                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 17:05                                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-10 17:40                                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 18:22                                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-10 19:20                                                                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-11  8:26                                                                               ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-11 10:22                                                                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-11 16:10                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 18:04                                                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-11 18:31                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 18:42                                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:52                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:02                                                                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 19:41                                                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-11 18:43                                                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:57                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:15                                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 20:29                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:42                                                                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:52                                                                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-11 19:02                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 17:30                                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-09 18:10                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:56                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 21:15                                         ` Anonymous
2011-02-08 19:43                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 20:01                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:27                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 20:41                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:06                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 21:13                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:16                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:41                                         ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-09 18:39                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:29                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 20:44                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  3:03                                                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-10 19:07                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11  7:19                                                     ` Stephen Leake
2011-02-11 18:43                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 10:42                                         ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 18:39                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:48                                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-09 18:55                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:03                                                 ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-09 22:25                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  3:07                                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-10  6:09                                                     ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-10 17:48                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 21:30                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 22:05                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:42                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:09                                     ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:25                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:46                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:59                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:44                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:54                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:59                                                 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 19:21                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:30                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 19:44                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:08                                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:49                                         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 21:51                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:13                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:04                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:12                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 23:03                                             ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 22:30                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-09 10:19                                         ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-09 15:09                                         ` KK6GM
2011-02-09  0:13                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09  1:56                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-09  2:33                                           ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-09 15:49                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:29                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-21  7:17                                             ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 20:04                                   ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 20:44                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 21:19                                       ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-09  9:21                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 15:20                                           ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 16:39                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 16:46                                               ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 17:15                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 17:46                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:02                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:17                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:34                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:52                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:48                                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:09                                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:52                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:45                                                               ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 22:13                                                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:53                                                   ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 19:20                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:31                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:50                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:56                                           ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 22:41                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:12                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:29                                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:49                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:36                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:51                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-21  7:17                                         ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 20:55                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 21:26                                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-09  7:59                                   ` Mart van de Wege
2011-02-09  9:16                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 10:28                                       ` Mart van de Wege
2011-02-09 15:57                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:36                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10  6:35                                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-08 10:11                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:16                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:36                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:43                                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 12:20                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 20:21                             ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:46                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 22:35                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:18                             ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-08 15:36               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 16:44                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 17:13                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 18:33                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 18:39                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-03 17:43 ` John McCormick
2011-02-12  4:47 ` Edward Fish
2011-02-12  8:02   ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-14  0:09   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-15  0:25     ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-19  4:21       ` Edward Fish
2011-02-13  1:04 ` anon
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