GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

Hi to all,

With the distribution of GNAT GPL form Adacore Libre comes some code
examples like "ada_cpp" that presents mixed Ada/C++ projetcs.  My
problem is the following: In GPS, for the project to build, we need
GPRBUILD which uses GCC and the -gnat05 option.  Well, using GPRBUILD,
the ouput of a BUILD ALL tells me that GCC 4.4 installed by Ubuntu was
triggered, not GCC 4.3 coming with the GNAT distro.  How do I tell GPS
and GPRBUILD to use the good GCC? The problem is on the Ubuntu side or
GPRBUILD?

We have to admit that my setup is ugly.  I use GPS and GPRBUILD from
Adacore, but GNAT from Ubuntu.  That's not all.  I don't know why, but
by using GNAT from Ubuntu, the second example from ada_cpp,
animals.gpr, does not compile at all. I get the following error
mesage:

cannot import abstract subprogram "Number_Of_Teeth" declared at line
5.
cannot imp...

If someone could help me with my problem of GNAT versioning to resolve
the good use of GCC, I would really appreciate.  Just to confirm, I
did exported /usr/gnat/bin into my PATH env. variable.

Thanks in advance,

Olivier Henley

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:

> With the distribution of GNAT GPL form Adacore Libre comes some code
> examples like "ada_cpp" that presents mixed Ada/C++ projetcs.  My
> problem is the following: In GPS, for the project to build, we need
> GPRBUILD which uses GCC and the -gnat05 option.  Well, using GPRBUILD,
> the ouput of a BUILD ALL tells me that GCC 4.4 installed by Ubuntu was
> triggered, not GCC 4.3 coming with the GNAT distro.  How do I tell GPS
> and GPRBUILD to use the good GCC? The problem is on the Ubuntu side or
> GPRBUILD?

It's on your side; set PATH to include the correct gcc first. Or
uninstall gcc 4.4 from Ubuntu. Or install GPS and gprbuild from Ubuntu;
both are in Debian testing, I don't know if they are in Ubuntu yet. If
they are not in Ubuntu, upgrade to Debian.

Just out of curiosity; why are you using Ubuntu instead of Debian in the
first place?

What version of GNAT GPL are you using? Since it has the older compiler,
it is quite likely that there is a newer version.

> We have to admit that my setup is ugly.  I use GPS and GPRBUILD from
> Adacore, but GNAT from Ubuntu.  

That's what's causing the ugliness; when you install packages outside
the normal Unbuntu package manager, you have to expect problems like
this.

> That's not all. I don't know why, but by using GNAT from Ubuntu, the
> second example from ada_cpp, animals.gpr, does not compile at all. I
> get the following error mesage:
>
> cannot import abstract subprogram "Number_Of_Teeth" declared at line
> 5.
> cannot imp...

It is often the case that newer compilers implement language checks that
older compilers did not.

> If someone could help me with my problem of GNAT versioning to resolve
> the good use of GCC, I would really appreciate.  Just to confirm, I
> did exported /usr/gnat/bin into my PATH env. variable.

Is GPS using that PATH? That depends on how you launch it.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

On May 18, 3:53 am, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org>
wrote:

> Just out of curiosity; why are you using Ubuntu instead of Debian in the
> first place?

Last time I tried Debian and Ubuntu around the same period, I found
Ubuntu much more polished that Debian. For everyday use, it is
welcomed. But I like your way of thinking... upgrade to Debian :).
Also, I didn't know that the support for Ada in Debian was better...
Correct me if I'm wrong.

> What version of GNAT GPL are you using? Since it has the older compiler,
> it is quite likely that there is a newer version.

From the Ubuntu install, my version is Gnat 4.4

> It is often the case that newer compilers implement language checks that
> older compilers did not.

Good to have a confirmation.

> Is GPS using that PATH? That depends on how you launch it.

I'll check for that.

Thanks for helping me out with these problems.

Olivier

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

On May 18, 3:40 pm, zeta_no <olivier_hen...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On May 18, 3:53 am, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Just out of curiosity; why are you using Ubuntu instead of Debian in the
> > first place?
>
> Last time I tried Debian and Ubuntu around the same period, I found
> Ubuntu much more polished that Debian. For everyday use, it is
> welcomed. But I like your way of thinking... upgrade to Debian :).
> Also, I didn't know that the support for Ada in Debian was better...
> Correct me if I'm wrong.

It is better because Ubuntu is only a derivative; Debian is the source
and that's where all the work goes. Stephe and I are two of the Debian
maintainers. The Ubuntu maintainers are not here on this forum. By
upgrading to Debian, you eliminate a middle-man.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> The Ubuntu maintainers are not here on this forum. 

That's interesting. Is there anything we can do about that?

In the spirit of the recent discussion on debian-project, we should try
to encourage cooperation between Debian and Ubuntu Ada people.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:
> > The Ubuntu maintainers are not here on this forum.
>
> That's interesting. Is there anything we can do about that?

I don't know.  I don't know these people and I don't know whether they
are specifically interested in Ada or just take random Debian unstable
packages and recompile them in Ubuntu  (Ubuntu packages do not have a
designated maintainer like in Debian; they all belong to the "Masters
Of The Universe", as they call themselves; "Universe" really means
"everything not on the Ubuntu installation CD-ROM").  I have no idea
what their release coordination looks like and, TBH, I am not really
interested; I already have enough work as it is and a 6-month release
schedule is much too tight for me.

> In the spirit of the recent discussion on debian-project, we should try
> to encourage cooperation between Debian and Ubuntu Ada people.

Maybe. That's off-topic for this newsgroup, though.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:

> On May 18, 3:53 am, Stephen Leake <stephen_le...@stephe-leake.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Just out of curiosity; why are you using Ubuntu instead of Debian in the
>> first place?
>
> Last time I tried Debian and Ubuntu around the same period, I found
> Ubuntu much more polished that Debian. 

Yes, Debian doesn't look like Windows when you first install it. But
more things work, especially when you start upgrading.

I have both Windows and Debian at home; Windows for games and such,
Debian for serious work. 

> For everyday use, it is welcomed. But I like your way of thinking...
> upgrade to Debian :). Also, I didn't know that the support for Ada in
> Debian was better... Correct me if I'm wrong.
>
>> What version of GNAT GPL are you using? Since it has the older compiler,
>> it is quite likely that there is a newer version.
>
> From the Ubuntu install, my version is Gnat 4.4

That's the Ubuntu gnat version. You said you also installed GNAT GPL,
presumably by downloading from https://libre.adacore.com/libre/download/

What version is that? 2008 or 2009?

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

Olivier Henley wrote on comp.lang.ada:
[...]
> We have to admit that my setup is ugly.  I use GPS and GPRBUILD from
> Adacore, but GNAT from Ubuntu.  That's not all.  I don't know why, but
> by using GNAT from Ubuntu, the second example from ada_cpp,
> animals.gpr, does not compile at all. I get the following error
> mesage:
[...]

I think that all your problems are because of this ugly setup of
yours. While I think it must be possible to use GPS with several
different versions of GNAT, I'm not going to investigate the details
of why you fail; rather, out of curiosity, I'd like to know why you
think you must mix the GNAT GPL Edition with the Ubuntu packages, i.e.
what problem are you trying to solve that neither GNAT GPL Edition nor
Ubuntu can solve alone?

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

On May 18, 8:56 am, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:

> I think that all your problems are because of this ugly setup of
> yours. While I think it must be possible to use GPS with several
> different versions of GNAT, I'm not going to investigate the details
> of why you fail; rather, out of curiosity, I'd like to know why you
> think you must mix the GNAT GPL Edition with the Ubuntu packages, i.e.
> what problem are you trying to solve that neither GNAT GPL Edition nor
> Ubuntu can solve alone?

No, I don't think I must mix the GNAT GPL Edition and the Ubuntu
packages, I did it because it has been the only successful combination
capable of building the excepts.gpr project, an Ada_CPP project.

When you install GNAT, GPS and GPRbuild from Ubuntu, it looks to me
that when you load the except.gpr project, GPS by default, tries to
build with gnatmake, not GPRbuild. The GNAT/GPS version from Adacore
does build this project out of the box with GPRbuild.  But now, GPS,
when it calls GCC, seems to use the system wide default GCC, in my
case, the 4.4 version installed by Ubuntu.  My problem is therefore
twofold.  First, I cannot strip my Ubuntu box from GCC 4.4 because
synaptic wants to uninstall many important things such as proprietary
video drivers. Second, I would like to use the GCC retrieved from
Adacore, but I just did not figured out how to tell GPS to use that
precise version. You have to realize that I am completely new to GPS
and Ada in general and therefore might fail to configure basic stuff.

To build and run a Ada_CPP project is of great importance to me
because as a participant to an engineering competition, I try to
convince my teammates that the use of Ada for the real time
programming issues would greatly help our cause.  On the team we have
hardcore CPP fans and we will be using libraries such as OpenCV (C and
CPP version).  Yesterday, I had to make a presentation to the team
showing the possibility of interfacing both language as a bare minimum
to carry on with the idea of using Ada on our project.

So here are all my motivations for making this project build with or
without an ugly setup.  To go further, I'll accept nothing else than a
clean install :)

Thanks for your time and concern,

Olivier

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

So, if I understand correctly, your problem boils down to: how do I
tell Ubuntu's gnat-gps to call gprbuild instead of gnatmake?

IIRC, this is triggered by your project file containing the Languages
attribute:

for Languages use ("Ada", "CPP"); -- or something similar

The presence of this attribute instructs GPS to call gprbuild instead
of gnatmake. I think there is also a check box somewhere in the
Project Editor of GPS to make a project multi-language. Sorry that I
cannot be more specific; I'm completely free of C++ and use Emacs for
everything :)

If this works, you can uninstall GNAT GPL Edition and have a
completely clean install.

If this still fails, you can still use GNAT GPL Edition but the
problem is setting the $PATH in GPS so that it will call the gprbuild
and, in turn, the gcc from GNAT GPL Edition instead of the system-
provided ones.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:

> On May 18, 8:56 am, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
>
>> I think that all your problems are because of this ugly setup of
>> yours. While I think it must be possible to use GPS with several
>> different versions of GNAT, I'm not going to investigate the details
>> of why you fail; rather, out of curiosity, I'd like to know why you
>> think you must mix the GNAT GPL Edition with the Ubuntu packages, i.e.
>> what problem are you trying to solve that neither GNAT GPL Edition nor
>> Ubuntu can solve alone?
>
> No, I don't think I must mix the GNAT GPL Edition and the Ubuntu
> packages, I did it because it has been the only successful combination
> capable of building the excepts.gpr project, an Ada_CPP project.
>
> When you install GNAT, GPS and GPRbuild from Ubuntu, it looks to me
> that when you load the except.gpr project, GPS by default, tries to
> build with gnatmake, not GPRbuild. 

Did you file a bug report on this? As Ludovic pointed out, it may be a
problem with the gpr file, but it could be something else.

I maintain gprbuild for Debian, so I'd like to resolve this issue.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> Did you file a bug report on this? As Ludovic pointed out, it may be a
> problem with the gpr file, but it could be something else.

I did: http://bugs.debian.org/582219

(sorry for the bad formatting; blame that stupid webmail)

> I maintain gprbuild for Debian, so I'd like to resolve this issue.

Unfortunately I don't think it would be that easy; the only way would
be to "downgrade" the ada_cpp example to something that gnat-4.4 can
handle.

To the OP: note that it is *always* possible to interface Ada with C++
even without the new features of GNAT GPL 2009; it just takes more
effort.  In the worst case, you wrap the C++ classes and methods in a
C interface and use pragma Import on that C interface.  But gnat-4.4
already has some special support for C++, so the worst case is
unlikely.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> Stephen Leake wrote on comp.lang.ada:
>> Did you file a bug report on this? As Ludovic pointed out, it may be a
>> problem with the gpr file, but it could be something else.
>
> I did: http://bugs.debian.org/582219

That's not the problem the OP reported; they said "it runs gnatmake, not
gprbuild".

The problem you reported I also noticed. It is fixed in newer upstream
versions of gnat Pro.

>
>
> (sorry for the bad formatting; blame that stupid webmail)
>
>> I maintain gprbuild for Debian, so I'd like to resolve this issue.
>
> Unfortunately I don't think it would be that easy; the only way would
> be to "downgrade" the ada_cpp example to something that gnat-4.4 can
> handle.

The other way is to wait for the latest upstream gnat Pro to make it
into Debian.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

Stephen Leake wrote:
> Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:
>> Stephen Leake wrote on comp.lang.ada:
>>> Did you file a bug report on this? As Ludovic pointed out, it may be a
>>> problem with the gpr file, but it could be something else.
>
>> I did:http://bugs.debian.org/582219
>
> That's not the problem the OP reported; they said "it runs gnatmake, not
> gprbuild".

IIUC, that's what the OP *thought* was the problem but it wasn't.

>> Unfortunately I don't think it would be that easy; the only way would
>> be to "downgrade" the ada_cpp example to something that gnat-4.4 can
>> handle.
>
> The other way is to wait for the latest upstream gnat Pro to make it
> into Debian.

Actually the new features are also in the just-released GCC 4.5.0; the
Ada part is not yet packaged for Debian.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

Sorry for being out of the discussion for so long.

Thanks to both of you for all your help and insight into the problem.
I installed Debian... but stable, not testing.  GPRBuild is not
available.  I'll take time to install the testing version, but not
now, as I have enough on my plate these days.  Also, my competition
team wants to use OpenSuse for the devel. because of SUSE Studio which
lets you build a Just Enough OS in seconds (the target OS for the
embedded hardware).  So most people on my team are working on Xubuntu
at home, we will be devel. on OpenSuse at school and I need to find a
way to make Ada/C++ working in a robust fashion to convince the C++
"believers" to accept putting some Ada in our project.  So given the
pretty political/computational mess inside our team, I am pretty sure
my best bet is to always install the package from Adacore Libre, which
is by the way GNAT 2009 (answer to Stephen).

I'll learn how to use GPRBuild and install OpenSuse with the GNAT
suite, test for the GPRBuild examples an let you know how went that
new setup.

Olivier

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

Ok, now running on OpenSuse 11.2.  Installed GNAT2009 from Adacore
Libre.  I exported /usr/gnat/bin to my $PATH var.

When I start gps from the command line, I get:

Execution terminated by unhandled exception
Exception name: STORAGE_ERROR
Message: stack overflow (or erroneous memory access)
Call stack traceback locations:
0x8fa174b

When I start gps_exe from command line, it starts fine.  When I try to
build a project or compile a file, there is absolutely no ouput
messages.  Also, gps_exe freezes to death.

On the command line side.  I go to /usr/gnat/share/examples/gprbuild/
first_steps to test some projects.  First time I try:

gprbuild -d -Pada_main.gpr

I get:

/usr/gnat/libexec/gcc/i686-pc-linux-gnu/4.3.4/ld: crt1.o: No such
file: No such file or directory

Checked on the web, then learned I needed to install glib-dev package.

Try again, now it works.
Try except.gpr from ada_cpp folder, works too.
Try animals.gpr from ada_cpp folder, does not work.  Output from
compiler:

animals.ads:15:24: component of imported CPP type cannot have default
expression

Correct animals.ads on line 15 and then it compiles. Pffffuiiiffff!

Conclusion:

On windows, except the line 15 from animals.ads (I tried it)
everything works. (Sample animals.gpr is broken).
On linux, just go with Debian unstable to use GPRBuild as there is
good maintainers for the packages. Else, gnat-gps will bring more
trouble than the command line.

Note: I don't want to be unpleasant, but I have to criticized the Ada
community for not being well organized.  I see a desire from the main
actors to popularize Ada among developpers.  You just have to look at
the videos, conferences and news from AdaCore that convey the idea
that Ada is strong and far from dead.  I think there is really place
for improvement, mostly on first contact with new developers to come.
Compared to the C/C++ community, Ada really needs fresh blood and it
is not with the kind of experience I went though on Linux that new
people will get interested by Ada.  I tell you, lot of my schoolmates
would not even have passed the Ubuntu problems and get back directly
to C++ with absolutely no desire to maybe, one day, check back at Ada.
Nevertheless, I have to say that I find the integration on MS Windows
very good.

- First, one thing we can't argue.  Check on Distrowatch, Ubuntu is
THE most popular distribution, by far.  I know a lot of serious
programmer won't run on Ubuntu, but nevertheless, right after MS
windows, the fresh blood is on Ubuntu, nowhere else.

- Second, these days, in every engineering schools we learn C++ and or
Java.  So samples and methods involving mixing Ada with C++ and Java
code should work flawlessly.

- Third, there is few, and a lot of bad tutorials around the web.
Again, my schoolmates and I ALWAYS go by tutorials first.  It is
easier, it gets the job done faster, gives an overview of the tool and
helps figure out what can be done with it. (Check what the Python
community achieved)

- Finaly, I understand the community is small and maybe already makes
its best to keep Ada alive but I think it is important to give you the
feedback of a newbie, because, I am sure, most of the time, people
like me just vanish without telling you why they have been put off by
Ada.  It is not Ada the problem, it's the presentation of the
technology which fails.

I hope all of this was constructive and I'll try to help others in
time, when my knowledge of Ada will be sufficient.

Thanks,

Olivier

Improving the first contact with Ada (was: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project)

[Ludovic Brenta]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:
[...]
> Note: I don't want to be unpleasant, but I have to criticized the Ada
> community for not being well organized.  I see a desire from the main
> actors to popularize Ada among developpers.  You just have to look at
> the videos, conferences and news from AdaCore that convey the idea
> that Ada is strong and far from dead.  I think there is really place
> for improvement, mostly on first contact with new developers to come.
> Compared to the C/C++ community, Ada really needs fresh blood and it
> is not with the kind of experience I went though on Linux that new
> people will get interested by Ada.  I tell you, lot of my schoolmates
> would not even have passed the Ubuntu problems and get back directly
> to C++ with absolutely no desire to maybe, one day, check back at Ada.

I have to commend you in return for your persistence and your
willingness to offer feedback.

> Nevertheless, I have to say that I find the integration on MS Windows
> very good.
>
> - First, one thing we can't argue.  Check on Distrowatch, Ubuntu is
> THE most popular distribution, by far.  I know a lot of serious
> programmer won't run on Ubuntu, but nevertheless, right after MS
> windows, the fresh blood is on Ubuntu, nowhere else.

That's OK, users of Ubuntu will get the Debian packages, which you said
were the way to go :) Of course they will always lag behind Debian
unstable.  Of course Ubuntu might introduce bugs that are not present in
Debian.  That's what people should expect when using a derivative rather
than the original; no surprises there.

OTOH, if your development team uses a mix of different operating
systems, GNAT GPL is definitely the way to go.

> - Second, these days, in every engineering schools we learn C++ and or
> Java.  So samples and methods involving mixing Ada with C++ and Java
> code should work flawlessly.

I agree but unfortunately, although I am an active member of the Ada
community, I don't have the manpower (or skills, or need for that
matter) to improve the situation myself.  Maybe you can contribute?
Writing a tutorial and reporting bugs precisely and formally
(e.g. http://bugs.debian.org/582219) would be a very good start.

> - Third, there is few, and a lot of bad tutorials around the web.
> Again, my schoolmates and I ALWAYS go by tutorials first.  It is
> easier, it gets the job done faster, gives an overview of the tool and
> helps figure out what can be done with it. (Check what the Python
> community achieved)

Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How
would you suggest improving them?

Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you
learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or
do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts"
to guide you?

> - Finaly, I understand the community is small and maybe already makes
> its best to keep Ada alive but I think it is important to give you the
> feedback of a newbie, because, I am sure, most of the time, people
> like me just vanish without telling you why they have been put off by
> Ada.  It is not Ada the problem, it's the presentation of the
> technology which fails.

It is OK to vent your frustrations in a general way -- your frustrations
are, IMHO, legitimate -- but please understand that this does not help
"the Ada community" much.

> I hope all of this was constructive and I'll try to help others in
> time, when my knowledge of Ada will be sufficient.

It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In particular I
would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the first contact a
newbie can have with Ada.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada (was: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project)

[zeta_no]

On May 24, 6:45 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:

> Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How
> would you suggest improving them?
>
> Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you
> learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or
> do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts"
> to guide you?

I should not point anyone by referring directly to their tutorials,
but let say a came across a least 3 tutorials about concurrency
programming with Ada that falls short of providing meaningful insight
on the true capabilities of Ada in this field.  They present task,
delays, guard etc but don't put all these concepts in 'imaging'
situations, which resumes the power of the tasking model.  Those did
not referred to typical uses of Ada, real problem solving that would
enlighten its non naive usage.  The offer for tutorials that presents
a classical introduction to Ada as being a general programming
language, with enhanced capabilities (tasking model, real-time annex
etc), is too important.  Many like me would benefit from more
specialized tutorials, like let say a middle size embedded project,
covering simply, many or all the main concepts provided by Ada and
their sound usage.

To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial
as something that can be quite long and involving.  Rarely you can
find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a
quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master
thesis and a final year thesis.  It treats a known subject (compared
with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding
(compared with some final year thesis).  These documents are great
starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit
austere books to sink in.


> It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In particular I
> would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the first contact a
> newbie can have with Ada.

Oh yes, I have ideas!

1. From my searches, it seems most people active with Ada are
registered and composed article on Ada Programming (Wikibooks).  Tell
me if I am wrong?
2. A stable Ada home should be enforced (it confuses the newbs not to
know where this month, this year you guys are).  Involved people will
change. Their effort are precious and you don't want 'tribal' data.
Wikibooks being an independent Wikimedia Foundation project has low
risk of vanishing in foreseeable future and anyone can add centralized
efforts.
3. Gather all interesting internet links on 'tribal' Ada material to
this page. Next post by newbs asking for Ada resources, be coherent
and send it to a single HOME.
4. Face lift, in the form of reorganization not visual style, to Ada
Programming (Wikibooks)!

i.   The intro is not good as it should be.  It should be more sexy!
ii.  In my humble opinion, the Ada Lovelace painting should be changed
by the more impressive logo 'in strong typing we trust' or a NASA
project's photograph.  I am not from the USA, and still I find this
logo incredibly brilliant.  From a fine arts point of view, this is
truly post-modern (being a logo first, the wordplay, the reference to
a military badge and finally a classical portrait of a women(later by
reference again, you learn she was the first programmer of all time).
Wow!)
iii. The intro should impress(not too much) and excite the visitor.
Concise.
     - Standard of software engineering. (a reference on that)
     - General purpose, object-oriented, safety critical etc... (soft
on that, should impress but not overwhelm)
     - NASA, Boeing etc. (soft on that, should impress but not
overwhelm)
     - Emphasis on 'sexy' project that uses Ada, Globe3D, GTKAda,
MarteOS, etc. (with links and maybe small thumbnails, colorful. This
can't overwhelm because it is on your reach right now compared to the
NASA projects. It can only excite)
     - Links for resources. Split in two branches. One for beginner,
one for regular.

iv. In the beginner section,
a first tutorial for setting up Ada.  One windows, one Linux. (if on
Linux GPS is crap, hide it, tutorial should be made to use emacs with
Ada)


>
> --
> Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

zeta_no writes on comp.lang.ada:
> On May 24, 6:45 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:
>
>> Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How
>> would you suggest improving them?
>>
>> Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you
>> learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or
>> do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts"
>> to guide you?
>
> I should not point anyone by referring directly to their tutorials,
> but let say a came across a least 3 tutorials about concurrency
> programming with Ada that falls short of providing meaningful insight
> on the true capabilities of Ada in this field.  They present task,
> delays, guard etc but don't put all these concepts in 'imaging'
> situations, which resumes the power of the tasking model.  Those did
> not referred to typical uses of Ada, real problem solving that would
> enlighten its non naive usage.  The offer for tutorials that presents
> a classical introduction to Ada as being a general programming
> language, with enhanced capabilities (tasking model, real-time annex
> etc), is too important.  Many like me would benefit from more
> specialized tutorials, like let say a middle size embedded project,
> covering simply, many or all the main concepts provided by Ada and
> their sound usage.
>
> To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial
> as something that can be quite long and involving.  Rarely you can
> find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a
> quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master
> thesis and a final year thesis.  It treats a known subject (compared
> with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding
> (compared with some final year thesis).  These documents are great
> starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit
> austere books to sink in.

Ah, so your problem comes from the prejudice that books must be austere
(forgive me but I have a bad habit of poking where it hurts, without
being too shy about it).  John Barnes' book[1] is anything *but*
austere; I highly recommend it.  Also there was a thread here on
comp.lang.ada this week with several good suggestions of books about Ada
tasking.

Also, have you looked at the free online book "Ada 95: The Craft Of
Object-Oriented Programming"[2] by John English?  Chapter 19 covers
tasking.

[1] http://www.amazon.com/Programming-Ada-2005-John-Barnes/dp/0321340787
[2] http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je/adacraft/

Granted, these are not tutorials; they are books.  If the only problem
with books is that they are austere, then surely there must be a way to
turn them into cheery tutorials?

>> It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In
>> particular I would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the
>> first contact a newbie can have with Ada.
>
> Oh yes, I have ideas!
>
> 1. From my searches, it seems most people active with Ada are
> registered and composed article on Ada Programming (Wikibooks).  Tell
> me if I am wrong?

You are wrong.  Unfortunately, most of the Ada programmers are inactive
on the Internet; they work in stealth (or even secret) mode.  What you
see on the Internet is perhaps 1% of all Ada programmers.  In my view,
this is unfortunate but I can't do anything to change that.

> 2. A stable Ada home should be enforced (it confuses the newbs not to
> know where this month, this year you guys are).  Involved people will
> change. Their effort are precious and you don't want 'tribal' data.
> Wikibooks being an independent Wikimedia Foundation project has low
> risk of vanishing in foreseeable future and anyone can add centralized
> efforts.

That's what you get for being an open ISO standard :) Anyone with enough
understanding (or misunderstandings...) of the language is free to start
their own web site; this has happened several times in the past.  I
consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
Ada (it has been so for many years).  Other people may have different
opinions but, at least, there is some *funding* for maintaining this
site, so it has some semblance of guarantee for longevity.

[3] http://www.adaic.com

> 3. Gather all interesting internet links on 'tribal' Ada material to
> this page. Next post by newbs asking for Ada resources, be coherent
> and send it to a single HOME.

That's what I do all the time, to people who ask here on comp.lang.ada.
I cannot do anything about web forums, sorry.

> 4. Face lift, in the form of reorganization not visual style, to Ada
> Programming (Wikibooks)! [...]

OK, these are more specific and can result in tangible improvements.
Thanks for that.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)]

Le Sun, 13 Jun 2010 21:25:18 +0200, Ludovic Brenta  
<ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> a écrit:
> consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
Hub is indeed the good word: “if it's not there, it's linked from there”

-- 
There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check.
--# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho;
--# assert Ada;
--  i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion
--  and start with new conclusion as premise.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[zeta_no]

> That's what you get for being an open ISO standard :) Anyone with enough
> understanding (or misunderstandings...) of the language is free to start
> their own web site; this has happened several times in the past.  I
> consider the Ada Information Clearinghouse[3] to be the "central hub" of
> Ada (it has been so for many years).  Other people may have different
> opinions but, at least, there is some *funding* for maintaining this
> site, so it has some semblance of guarantee for longevity.
>
> [3]http://www.adaic.com

Good to know, thanks.  Now let me ask you a question.  Do you think
the image of a product or a technology is important right now in
2010?  Do you think the imaging phenomenon is of importance when it
comes to attract people, seriously?

Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
~1993.  I came across that site often and I left it as many times
because I though this was an obsolete site!

Seriously, it needs refreshing!

My two cents.

Olivier

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

zeta_no writes on comp.lang.ada:
>> [3]http://www.adaic.com
>
> Good to know, thanks.  Now let me ask you a question.  Do you think
> the image of a product or a technology is important right now in 2010?
> Do you think the imaging phenomenon is of importance when it comes to
> attract people, seriously?
>
> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
> ~1993.  I came across that site often and I left it as many times
> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>
> Seriously, it needs refreshing!

I agree.  Maybe that's the problem with Ada people: they spend too much
time writing quality software and not enough doing marketing.  I try to
do my part in the technical marketing department but I'm not a webmaster
or a graphics designer.  I think you'd get the same kind of anwser from
most people on this newsgroup.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)]

Le Sun, 13 Jun 2010 23:22:39 +0200, Ludovic Brenta  
<ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> a écrit:
>> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
>> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
>> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
>> ~1993.  I came across that site often and I left it as many times
>> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>>
>> Seriously, it needs refreshing!
>
> I agree.  Maybe that's the problem with Ada people: they spend too much
> time writing quality software and not enough doing marketing.  I try to
> do my part in the technical marketing department but I'm not a webmaster
> or a graphics designer.  I think you'd get the same kind of anwser from
> most people on this newsgroup.
If may give my opinion.

1) Most of time, people who says “software designers are poor graphic  
designers”, are themselves poor software designer. They stop on graphic  
design, because this is the sole thing whose quality they are able to  
evaluate (does not only applies to Ada, this also applies with web  
applications written in JavaScript and the like).
2) People seeking for documentation, should be aware that, when seeking  
for documentation, documentation should come first! Not graphical design!  
What can you expect from someones who run away from a graphical design and  
prefer to go elsewhere, with may be a better graphical design, but lower  
quality documentation. Look at Jean Pierre Rosen's AdaControl : may some  
others sites has a better graphical design than his one, but none has such  
an application as AdaControl. A choice must be made and every one is  
responsible for his/her choice.
3) AdaIC has a graphical identity, if it change it, pretty sure many body  
gonna ask themselves what happened (“is it still the same AdaIC ?”)
4) AdaIC design is not so bad, it is even good (well balanced and  
constant). Old fashioned ? What was nice 15 years ago is ugly now ? So  
people 15 years ago all had bad taste ? Something is silly in this  
assertion, and even some famous web designers agree that this is a silly  
point of view (some lough out loud when they here about so called “Web 2.0  
graphical style”).
5) If you want to differentiate from others, don't copy everyones else  
graphical identity, get yours.

Hope I did no went too much off-topic.

-- 
There is even better than a pragma Assert: a SPARK --# check.
--# check C and WhoKnowWhat and YouKnowWho;
--# assert Ada;
--  i.e. forget about previous premises which leads to conclusion
--  and start with new conclusion as premise.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

Yannick Duchêne wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> Ludovic Brenta a écrit:
>>> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
>>> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
>>> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
>>> ~1993.  I came across that site often and I left it as many times
>>> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>>>
>>> Seriously, it needs refreshing!
>>
>> I agree.  Maybe that's the problem with Ada people: they spend too much
>> time writing quality software and not enough doing marketing.  I try to
>> do my part in the technical marketing department but I'm not a webmaster
>> or a graphics designer.  I think you'd get the same kind of anwser from
>> most people on this newsgroup.
>
> If may give my opinion.
>
> 1) Most of time, people who says “software designers are poor graphic  
> designers”, are themselves poor software designer. They stop on graphic  
> design, because this is the sole thing whose quality they are able to  
> evaluate (does not only applies to Ada, this also applies with web  
> applications written in JavaScript and the like).

I differ.

I use emacs in full-screen mode with no menu bar, no button bar and I
rarely ever touch the mouse.  My "desktop environment" is
ratpoison[1].
I wrote a few web pages in the past: in emacs and hand-written, with
no
JavaScript or CSS.  When I browse in firefox, I have a habit of doing
View > Page Style > No style to *disable* any fancy (and usually bad)
CSS layout that the "web designer" at the other end thinks is "cool"
but, to me, just gets in the way.  I like my web pages simple and to
the point, just like the software I use or write.  I am not a graphics
designer and definitely not a web designer but I think I am a good
software engineer.  Maybe I *could* become a good web designer but
I'm just not interested.  Back in the days when I worked on a large
web application, I avoided the "web" part and concentrated on the
back-end (server) part.  I like Plain Text.  I prefer command-line
tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
never give it a GUI.

[1] http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/

> 2) People seeking for documentation, should be aware that, when seeking  
> for documentation, documentation should come first! Not graphical design!  
> What can you expect from someones who run away from a graphical design and  
> prefer to go elsewhere, with may be a better graphical design, but lower  
> quality documentation. Look at Jean Pierre Rosen's AdaControl : may some  
> others sites has a better graphical design than his one, but none has such  
> an application as AdaControl. A choice must be made and every one is  
> responsible for his/her choice.

This would seem to indicate Jean-Pierre and I are of the same breed:
excellent software engineers, lousy web designers :)

> 3) AdaIC has a graphical identity, if it change it, pretty sure many body  
> gonna ask themselves what happened (“is it still the same AdaIC ?”)
> 4) AdaIC design is not so bad, it is even good (well balanced and  
> constant). Old fashioned ? What was nice 15 years ago is ugly now ? So  
> people 15 years ago all had bad taste ? Something is silly in this  
> assertion, and even some famous web designers agree that this is a silly  
> point of view (some lough out loud when they here about so called “Web 2.0  
> graphical style”).

I too like the style of AdaIC, except for the hardcoded "column"
layout
that wastes precious horizontal space.

> 5) If you want to differentiate from others, don't copy everyones else  
> graphical identity, get yours.

Right; don't be a lemming.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Nasser M. Abbasi]

On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> I prefer command-line
> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
> never give it a GUI.
>

May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place 
for both?

Many things are really hard to do with just a command line. One needs a 
good GUI for that.

And somethings are easy to do with a command line.

An example: I use rsync command to do my backup. a simple command. A gui 
might actually get in the way here.

But when I want to move a file from one folder to another, rename files, 
etc... I find it easier to use a file manager (a GUI) and the mouse, 
rather than use the command line for this.

When I want to use ftp, I use FileZilla, a GUI frontend to ftp. Much 
easier to use that using ftp commands. I forgot even the ftp commands by 
now.

I think these days, in the web era, langauges with little GUI support 
build into them can cause these language not to become popular.

Ada lack of good GUI integration is a problem. The other night I played 
with GTKada. Wanted to learn how to make GUI with Ada. Downloaded 
examples from libre web site,

http://www.adapower.com/launch.php?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flibre.act-europe.fr%2FGtkAda%2F

read the documents, and build them OK on windows. I found all the 
examples to be trivial, a single button that come up and such.

Other GTKAda small programs that I found on the net (so few out there), 
either do not build OK, or if they do, they crashed when ran.

These days, one needs a good language (like Ada), but also needs good 
support for GUI build-into the language.  The area I am interested in, 
scientific applications, the ability to make plots and write GUI 
front-ends for an application to interface to the algorithm is as 
important as the algorithm itself. Need both.

This is one reason Matlab is popular. The language is not so good 
actually, but it is so easy to make GUI's and do plots with it.

Not trying to compare matlab with Ada here, apples and oranges, but just 
pointing out that the ability to make GUI in a language is important for 
it to become "popular" these days.

my 2-cents.

--Nasser

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 01:47:52 -0700, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:

> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> 
>> I prefer command-line
>> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
>> never give it a GUI.
> 
> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place 
> for both?

No, all people are genetically separated into Emacs users and others. (:-))

> Ada lack of good GUI integration is a problem.

Yes. No binding to crappy C-library X will solve this.

> The other night I played 
> with GTKada. Wanted to learn how to make GUI with Ada. Downloaded 
> examples from libre web site,
> 
> http://www.adapower.com/launch.php?URL=http%3A%2F%2Flibre.act-europe.fr%2FGtkAda%2F
> 
> read the documents, and build them OK on windows. I found all the 
> examples to be trivial, a single button that come up and such.
> 
> Other GTKAda small programs that I found on the net (so few out there), 
> either do not build OK, or if they do, they crashed when ran.

Well, that depends on the compiler/GtkAda you use. Unless you are using
GNAT GPL 2009, presently, you will have troubles.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Ludovic Brenta]

Nasser M. Abbasi wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>
>> I prefer command-line tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility
>> for my own use, I never give it a GUI.
>
> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
> for both?
[...]
> I think these days, in the web era, langauges with little GUI support
> build into them can cause these language not to become popular. [...]

Oh, sure, I never disputed that.  Indeed I tried browsing the web with
lynx (text mode) and went back to iceweasel; there are indeed
situations
where a GUI is necessary.  I can do GUIs with GtkAda, too, but I've
never
had the need in my personal projects (in my work I do a lot of GtkAda
though).  And if someone would ask my advice on web design, my advice
would probably not be what they want to hear :)

PS. For file management, I rely on the command line and emacs dired.

PPS. In GtkAda, you should have a look at testgtk which is an extended
example showing all GTK+ widgets.

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Stephen Leake]

Ludovic Brenta <ludovic@ludovic-brenta.org> writes:

> Nasser M. Abbasi wrote on comp.lang.ada:
>> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>>
>>> I prefer command-line tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility
>>> for my own use, I never give it a GUI.
>>
>> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
>> for both?
> [...]
>> I think these days, in the web era, langauges with little GUI support
>> build into them can cause these language not to become popular. [...]
>
> ..
> 
> PS. For file management, I rely on the command line and emacs dired.

Emacs dired is a GUI. It's implemented using the most modern GUI toolkit
available at the time it was first implemented. It's been updated a few
times, to take advantage of fonts and color.

"GUI" means "Graphical User Interface". That means something that uses
spatial relations in a display. It does _not_ mean overlapped windows,
bit-mapped displays, or rodents.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 14.06.10 10:47, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
> 
>> I prefer command-line
>> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
>> never give it a GUI.
>>
> 
> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
> for both?

The place that integrates GUI and command line operation is called
Plan 9 (by Bell Labs). It lets you use every piece of text on your
screen either as text or as a command, as you wish.  You can
write everywhere on the screen.  There is no concept of a framed
read only text functioning as a GUI button---every piece of text can be
made a button by simply clicking on it with a selectable mouse button.

http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/

The editor named "wily" has some of this integrated
into a Unix environment.  Available with Debian.

The Oberon systems used a similar approach.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:39:40 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:

> On 14.06.10 10:47, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>> 
>>> I prefer command-line
>>> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
>>> never give it a GUI.
>>>
>> 
>> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
>> for both?
> 
> The place that integrates GUI and command line operation is called
> Plan 9 (by Bell Labs). It lets you use every piece of text on your
> screen either as text or as a command, as you wish.  You can
> write everywhere on the screen.

Wow, great that it was buried!

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 14.06.10 14:19, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:39:40 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:
> 
>> On 14.06.10 10:47, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>>> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>>>
>>>> I prefer command-line
>>>> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
>>>> never give it a GUI.
>>>>
>>>
>>> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
>>> for both?
>>
>> The place that integrates GUI and command line operation is called
>> Plan 9 (by Bell Labs). It lets you use every piece of text on your
>> screen either as text or as a command, as you wish.  You can
>> write everywhere on the screen.
> 
> Wow, great that it was buried!

Says the one who writes fixed layout panels preventing
the user from doing what they might impertinently be
wanting to do when they creatively apply their own intelligence,
per chance?

Hands up if you can confirm that operators have learned
how to get rid of warning dialogs they do not know---by
pressing ENTER.  ;-)

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 15:06:42 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:

> On 14.06.10 14:19, Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
>> On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 12:39:40 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:
>> 
>>> On 14.06.10 10:47, Nasser M. Abbasi wrote:
>>>> On 6/14/2010 1:03 AM, Ludovic Brenta wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I prefer command-line
>>>>> tools over GUI tools, so when I write a utility for my own use, I
>>>>> never give it a GUI.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
>>>> for both?
>>>
>>> The place that integrates GUI and command line operation is called
>>> Plan 9 (by Bell Labs). It lets you use every piece of text on your
>>> screen either as text or as a command, as you wish.  You can
>>> write everywhere on the screen.
>> 
>> Wow, great that it was buried!
> 
> Says the one who writes fixed layout panels preventing
> the user from doing what they might impertinently be
> wanting to do when they creatively apply their own intelligence,
> per chance?

What about an operator continuing repeating the same sequence of actions
ignoring popping up message dialogs crying that it FAILED.

In another case the operator reported a bug. He forgot to turn the computer
on.

> Hands up if you can confirm that operators have learned
> how to get rid of warning dialogs they do not know---by
> pressing ENTER.  ;-)

Record the time between window creation and the cancel button press. If the
delay is too short, give another warning. After tree warnings the operator
receives one point. Three points are mailed to his superior. (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

> What about an operator continuing repeating the same sequence of actions
> ignoring popping up message dialogs crying that it FAILED.

(See below)

The idea is that as an application interface designer, you provide
a GAI, not a GUI.  That is, a Graphical Application Interface that
is somewhat like a scripting interface.

This obliges the GAI (sic) programmer to provide rock
solid GAIs that can not mess things up yet will provide all
possibilities to operators with suitable knowledge.
No damage, many degrees of freedom.

> Record the time between window creation and the cancel button press. If the
> delay is too short, give another warning. After tree warnings the operator
> receives one point. Three points are mailed to his superior. (:-))

Credit point systems won't work here, though repeated pop ups
could create more work heat throughout the organization.
Case in question: an operator sees a dialog window and has a healthy
attitude towards dialog windows. That is, he/she presses ENTER after
ignoring both any text and, quite naturally, the consequences
of dismissing the dialog which is actually a rescue dialog.  Using a
big red button instead of a standard gray OK did not change behavior.
(Some handbags are red, too, after all...)

The dialog said, in attempt to get the operator's attention,

"If you press ENTER, you will get fired!"

Guess what?
This message has no effect on the operators' attitude
towards dialog windows. The dialogs look exactly like
at home where they get in the way (and out of the way!)
without noticeable consequence. Like blowflies on the screen.

He/she won't get fired, either.

Reasons:
- Firing requires work in superior organizational units,
and recruiting efforts.
- There isn't a massive threat from the insurance company
in case of not so massive consequences of dialog dismissal.
- Effects on others (clients, passengers, ...) overall are such
that they do not affect superiors' standing, hence provide
no incentive to request effort and/or money for a solution.

Therefore, occasional itching (error dialogs) can be safely
ignored.

Solution?
Ignorance is not so easily employed when there is nothing to
ignore! Therefore, a strategy might be to disable all
interface functions after dialog dismissal and require attention:
Print in bold letters:

  "You Lose!"

This creates ... panic, cynicism, lies?

But! There is attention, at last!
And ... a need for work, making phone calls, experts sent for etc.
Work that nobody wanted to know about in the first place,
right? :-)

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 17:59:49 +0200, Georg Bauhaus wrote:

>> Record the time between window creation and the cancel button press. If the
>> delay is too short, give another warning. After tree warnings the operator
>> receives one point. Three points are mailed to his superior. (:-))
> 
> Credit point systems won't work here, though repeated pop ups
> could create more work heat throughout the organization.
> Case in question: an operator sees a dialog window and has a healthy
> attitude towards dialog windows. That is, he/she presses ENTER after
> ignoring both any text and, quite naturally, the consequences
> of dismissing the dialog which is actually a rescue dialog.  Using a
> big red button instead of a standard gray OK did not change behavior.
> (Some handbags are red, too, after all...)
> 
> The dialog said, in attempt to get the operator's attention,
> 
> "If you press ENTER, you will get fired!"
> 
> Guess what?
> This message has no effect on the operators' attitude
> towards dialog windows. The dialogs look exactly like
> at home where they get in the way (and out of the way!)
> without noticeable consequence. Like blowflies on the screen.
> 
> He/she won't get fired, either.
> 
> Reasons:
> - Firing requires work in superior organizational units,
> and recruiting efforts.
> - There isn't a massive threat from the insurance company
> in case of not so massive consequences of dialog dismissal.
> - Effects on others (clients, passengers, ...) overall are such
> that they do not affect superiors' standing, hence provide
> no incentive to request effort and/or money for a solution.
> 
> Therefore, occasional itching (error dialogs) can be safely
> ignored.
> 
> Solution?
> Ignorance is not so easily employed when there is nothing to
> ignore! Therefore, a strategy might be to disable all
> interface functions after dialog dismissal and require attention:
> Print in bold letters:
> 
>   "You Lose!"
> 
> This creates ... panic, cynicism, lies?
> 
> But! There is attention, at last!
> And ... a need for work, making phone calls, experts sent for etc.
> Work that nobody wanted to know about in the first place,
> right? :-)

Well, seriously speaking, the rule is, never show anything that does not
require a choice (operation's interference). Warning dialog does not offer
any choice, down with it.

As for recording operator's actions, it is not just a joke. For example a
forklift truck control system we designed can log some driver's actions.
Drivers are identified when they turn the truck on. So the manager can
study the driving style of the workers when trucks get damaged or costs
raise. If the trade union leaned that... (:-))

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Warren]

Georg Bauhaus expounded in news:4c1606e8$0$7666$9b4e6d93@newsspool1.arcor-
online.net:

>> May be this is getting off-topic a little...But I think there is a place
>> for both?
> 
> The place that integrates GUI and command line operation is called
> Plan 9 (by Bell Labs). ...
> 
> http://cm.bell-labs.com/plan9/

Do you know if it boots in VirtualBox yet?  The
last time I tried, it hanged coming up.  

Warren

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Mon, 14 Jun 2010 00:35:31 +0200, Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57) wrote:

> 3) AdaIC has a graphical identity, if it change it, pretty sure many body  
> gonna ask themselves what happened (“is it still the same AdaIC ?”)
> 4) AdaIC design is not so bad, it is even good (well balanced and  
> constant). Old fashioned ? What was nice 15 years ago is ugly now ? So  
> people 15 years ago all had bad taste ?

It is not a question of taste or fashion. There are some objective
ergonomic rules, when violated make most people consider the page odd.
Three examples from AdaIC. it has two bars one vertical, one horizontal
with overlapping between, where is what? The colors: never use more than
one pure color, even if you wanted a shrilling visual effect (which AdaIC
did not). Never mix pictogram and text labels.

> 5) If you want to differentiate from others, don't copy everyones else  
> graphical identity, get yours.

... choose your identity wisely.

-- 
Regards,
Dmitry A. Kazakov
http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Randy Brukardt]

"zeta_no" <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:472c5f8a-111f-429f-acf5-b50b76079241@3g2000vbg.googlegroups.com...
...
> Sorry, I know Ada is about content and the image it radiates,
> esthetically, maybe the least of your concern (I don't point you
> directly Ludovic) but the web site of ADAIC is a time machine to
> ~1993.  I came across that site often and I left it as many times
> because I though this was an obsolete site!
>
> Seriously, it needs refreshing!

For what it's worth, it's been redesigned several times, but to date none 
seemed to be enough of an improvement in order to actually do the work. (New 
pages have a simplified design without the frame so it doesn't waste so much 
screen real-estate. That didn't get a go-ahead, either.)

Yet another refresh is in progress, supposedly will be ready for launch 
"soon". No idea when "soon" really will be.

                Randy Brukardt, "soon" to be former AdaIC webmaster.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 6/13/10 7:26 PM, zeta_no wrote:

> To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial
> as something that can be quite long and involving.  Rarely you can
> find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a
> quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master
> thesis and a final year thesis.  It treats a known subject (compared
> with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding
> (compared with some final year thesis).  These documents are great
> starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit
> austere books to sink in.

Indeed, there is an opportunity to set up an Ada teaching project in
the much needed style of Touch of Class (ETH Z�rich) or similar.
Much needed if it is true that CS education is no longer a sufficient
credential for some industries.  A teaching project could extend
across several semesters, can include virtual production
scenarios, require teams, will start from a larger and serious
piece of software (to be written by university staff) and
include a collection of non-accidental hardware.
This can be fun (model trains is an example, I imagine there are
others, equally realistic and equally affordable).  I mean, we
get to read about pressure sensors and thermometers all the time.
But are the real things part of CS proper?

As a modest example, I guess, it will be both possible and
instructive to teach a  sorting algorithm that runs on a
microcontroller. But you cannot, I think, teach that in one week!

(Thinking further, it might be necessary to not be too specific
in the project, since being specific means being exclusive
and you loose your audience:

- doesn't have to be control software requiring 2 years of soldering
   and quantum effects;
- a banking scenario offers enough to engage students for years,
   you might kill the project, though, by asking for 1 year experience
   in enterprise accounting;
- if there is a number crunching department, then there might be
   modules that need to be written and that can be written without
   a degree in math, but whose effect is seen in a larger computing
   effort (it is demonstrably difficult to find mathematicians who
   can even imagine that students from other departments find math
   more difficult than they do, so the tasks would have to be
   chosen to meet either need))

Do professors like it?  Will they be allowed to do it?
I can't say whether university management can consider anything but
the latest style of measuring university reputation, such as
number of publications with "impact".  If it turns out that
industry as a whole will like successful teaching as much as
anything else, this should encourage larger teaching projects.

The purpose of the Bologna process in Europe is to establish
a "European degree". I'd think that a long term CS project
offers an interesting teaching instrument. It even achieves
measurable success, and can be re-adjusted when needed,
without anyone needing to feel bad.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[jonathan]

On Jun 14, 9:35 am, Georg Bauhaus <rm-host.bauh...@maps.futureapps.de>
wrote:

>A teaching project could extend
>across several semesters, can include virtual production
>scenarios, require teams, will start from a larger and serious
>piece of software (to be written by university staff) and
>include a collection of non-accidental hardware.
>This can be fun (model trains is an example, I imagine there are
>others, equally realistic and equally affordable)....


Purely by coincidence (-;) I have been puzzling over the same
problem. We seemed to have reached similar conclusions. In fact
I've been building an off-the-top-of-my-head list of possible
projects - my preference is to provide something for the general
student public rather than (directly) for the classroom. I like
the idea of providing source code and as much friendly instruction
as possible for beginners who want an easy start on an ambitious
project. Here's a candidate I just came across .. I've mentioned
Marte-OS before, but I was unaware of this particular project,
which looks like fun for people interested in kernels and
operating systems, especially real-time Linux:

   Marte-OS as Linux Kernel Module (MLKM) project.
   http://rtportal.upv.es/apps/mlkm/

   This component provides the patches needed to run the
   MaRTE-OS executive as a Linux kernel module. ... MaRTE-OS is
   then executed as a hard real-time executive, and the whole of
   Linux (both the kernel and the applications) is executed as a
   background task.

   With these patches you will be able to run in the same machine
   both Linux and MaRTE-OS.

   The present patches work on Marte-OS 1.2.
   The latest Marte-OS is 1.9.

Don't know if it's too hard, too easy, or impractical .. again
the idea is someone smart gets it running and provides a (very)
friendly road map for future exploration, suitable for kids ..
like me.  Notice a) it plays to Ada's strengths, b) it's
a rapidly growing domain that could not be more important to
industry and c) it's the kind of thing that can
become a lifetime obsession.

It's always bothered me that Ada's nicest
features seem beyond the reach of beginners ... would be nice to
have something out of the box for real-time control. (I know
progress has been made with gnat support for LEGO mindstorms.)
http://libre.adacore.com/libre/tools/mindstorms/

J.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada (was: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project)

[Nicholas Collin Paul de Gloucester]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: TEXT/PLAIN, Size: 13706 bytes --]

I do not have time to follow this thread, but the quoted post made me
say to an outsider earlier than I was going to that trying to install
an Ada compiler would be a good idea. An excerpt of a report of how
this was not accomplished is quoted at the end of this post.

On Sun, 13 Jun 2010, zeta_no sent:
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"On May 24, 6:45 pm, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote:   |
|                                                                          |
|> Which tutorials specifically did you use and which ones were bad?  How  |
|> would you suggest improving them?                                       |
|>                                                                         |
|> Also, do you actually _learn_ anything in tutorials?  I mean, do you    |
|> learn the underlying concepts, the basic knowledge that empowers you, or|
|> do you only skim the surface of things and remain dependent on "experts"|
|> to guide you?                                                           |
|                                                                          |
|I should not point anyone by referring directly to their tutorials,       |
|but let say a came across a least 3 tutorials about concurrency           |
|programming with Ada that falls short of providing meaningful insight     |
|on the true capabilities of Ada in this field.  They present task,        |
|delays, guard etc but don't put all these concepts in 'imaging'           |
|situations, which resumes the power of the tasking model.  Those did      |
|not referred to typical uses of Ada, real problem solving that would      |
|enlighten its non naive usage.  The offer for tutorials that presents     |
|a classical introduction to Ada as being a general programming            |
|language, with enhanced capabilities (tasking model, real-time annex      |
|etc), is too important.  Many like me would benefit from more             |
|specialized tutorials, like let say a middle size embedded project,       |
|covering simply, many or all the main concepts provided by Ada and        |
|their sound usage.                                                        |
|                                                                          |
|To be sure you understand my point here, I see this type of tutorial      |
|as something that can be quite long and involving.  Rarely you can        |
|find that type of a document, that does not qualify as a book nor as a    |
|quick and dirty tutorial, as being organized halfway between a master     |
|thesis and a final year thesis.  It treats a known subject (compared      |
|with the master thesis), with solid knowledge and neat understanding      |
|(compared with some final year thesis).  These documents are great        |
|starters to light up curiosity and understanding to then permit           |
|austere books to sink in.                                                 |
|                                                                          |
|                                                                          |
|> It would be constructive if you could be more specific.  In particular I|
|> would be very interested in ideas on how to improve the first contact a |
|> newbie can have with Ada.                                               |
|                                                                          |
|Oh yes, I have ideas!                                                     |
|                                                                          |
|1. From my searches, it seems most people active with Ada are             |
|registered and composed article on Ada Programming (Wikibooks).  Tell     |
|me if I am wrong?"                                                        |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|

I do not believe that this is true.

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"2. A stable Ada home should be enforced (it confuses the newbs not to    |
|know where this month, this year you guys are)."                          |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|

Many members of the Ada community hate or are unpleasant to each
other.

|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|
|"[..]                                                                     |
|                                                                          |
|iv. In the beginner section,                                              |
|a first tutorial for setting up Ada.  One windows, one Linux. (if on      |
|Linux GPS is crap, hide it, tutorial should be made to use emacs with     |
|Ada)                                                                      |
|                                                                          |
|                                                                          |
|>                                                                         |
|> --                                                                      |
|> Ludovic Brenta."                                                        |
|--------------------------------------------------------------------------|

This is a major problem. The aforementioned outsider reported:
!________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________!
!"[..]                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           !
!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                !
!Let's start with this site: "***http://www.ada-europe.org/***". It has manuals in the html format, which I haven't spotted the first time I checked it, but a .pdf version would be fine. A list of manuals published from springer can be found, but, at least at first sight I cannot find any reviews of the book, as I do in ACCU. In fact, the site has a link to a reference manual in .pdf version, but when I try to download it... "Oops! This page appears broken. HTTP 404 - File not found."                                                                                                                                        !
!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                !
!In this site a list of compilers can be found. Let's check the site: "***http://www.adacore.com/home/***". It is not obvious at first site that I must pay for it. Apparently from the site "***http://www.adalog.fr/freeada1.htm***" I can download a free compiler. Let's see... No, but from there I can reach a site: "***http://sourceforge.net/projects/gnuada/files/***" where I can download a free compiler...I managed to download a compressed package, but now what? The help isn't really there and I suspect I can only install this compiler on Linux. If I have windows, I'm screwed...Ok, I've came across of four sites now...!
!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                !
!Ok, I give up...Let's try this one: "***http://www.adahome.com/***". I should not complain so much..."***http://www.adahome.com/Tutorials/Lovelace/lovelace.htm***" seems to be a tutorial for Ada...but it assumes I already now something of other languages, which is not a problem if I had tomething to write the code on and compile it.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  !
!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                !
!I do not know if this was what you expected. My problem is not buying a book, but as I told you the Glassborow's (C++) book assumes I know nothing. It is true that perhaps I coul download Quincy in the net, but he clearly tells me how tu use it and my only concern is the code. If I have an equivalent book about Ada, I won't mind buying it. I never thought of it, but perhaps I can use Quincy to write Ada? I can try...                                                                                                                                                                                                            !
!                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                !
![..]"                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                           !
!________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________!

Yours sincerely,
Nicholas Collin Paul de Gloucester

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada (was: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project)

[Ludovic Brenta]

Nicholas Collin Paul de Gloucester wrote on comp.lang.ada:
> I do not have time to follow this thread, but the quoted post made me
> say to an outsider earlier than I was going to that trying to install

Parse error, or syntax error :) I have no idea what you're trying to
say.

> an Ada compiler would be a good idea. An excerpt of a report of how
> this was not accomplished is quoted at the end of this post.

I generally agreed and still agree with most of what the OP said;
there is a wealth of information about Ada and installing compilers on
the web but there is a need for an "entry point" document with step-by-
step instructions for beginners.

The Ada Programming wikibook[1] is the closest thing to such a
tutorial; it is still not perfect, of course. The Ada Information
Clearinghouse[2] is the closest thing to a central hub for more
general information (other books, standards, success stories, etc.)

So, if you would like to help a beginner intalling an Ada development
environment, you should point them to these two sites.  If they have
any specific questions, you should direct them to this newsgroup
comp.lang.ada and tell them to specify which operating system they use
and which compiler, IDE or library they're trying to install.

[1] http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Ada_Programming
[2] http://www.adaic.com

Also, everyone is free to improve the wikibook (I recently rewrote the
chapter on object-oriented programming myself).

--
Ludovic Brenta.

Re: Improving the first contact with Ada

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 06.07.10 14:57, Ludovic Brenta wrote:

> The Ada Programming wikibook[1] is the closest thing to such a
> tutorial; it is still not perfect, of course. The Ada Information
> Clearinghouse[2] is the closest thing to a central hub for more
> general information (other books, standards, success stories, etc.)

People seem to be loosing the ability to use a personal computing
device without guidance from another.
GNAT, ObjectAda, AppletMagic, and I bet the other compilers, too,
ship with tutorial texts on how to get started with your Ada
tools.  I found them quite good. What do you think?

If the introductions are good, and if they address programmers
who know the basics of computers and of programming, then in
order to give these modern programmers a little help, maybe we
should just add an HTML button to Ada pages that when pressed
presents a dialog.
The dialog lets the user navigate to the introduction
which, surprise, is installed on his or her own machine, too!
If they select the compiler they have,
the dialog will show the name of a file from which to begin
the tutorial. The file has a default location. If it is not found
in its default location, the name is known and is presented in
the dialog.  The computer can then look for it using the indexes
that modern computers update all the time.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:

> Ok, now running on OpenSuse 11.2.  Installed GNAT2009 from Adacore
> Libre.  I exported /usr/gnat/bin to my $PATH var.
>
> When I start gps from the command line, I get:
>
> Execution terminated by unhandled exception
> Exception name: STORAGE_ERROR
> Message: stack overflow (or erroneous memory access)
> Call stack traceback locations:
> 0x8fa174b

So don't use GPS; use Emacs. AdaCore is better at compilers than at GUIs
(although the GUI does keep improving).


> On windows, except the line 15 from animals.ads (I tried it)
> everything works. 

Apparently AdaCore is aware that they can't rely on any extra packages
on windows, and includes more stuff than on Linux.

On the other hand, I did not have any trouble with GNAT 2009 on Debian
stable. 

> Note: I don't want to be unpleasant, but I have to criticized the Ada
> community for not being well organized.  

Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
organized? 

> I see a desire from the main actors to popularize Ada among
> developpers. You just have to look at the videos, conferences and news
> from AdaCore that convey the idea that Ada is strong and far from
> dead. I think there is really place for improvement, mostly on first
> contact with new developers to come. Compared to the C/C++ community,
> Ada really needs fresh blood and it is not with the kind of experience
> I went though on Linux that new people will get interested by Ada. 

I don't read the C newsgroups, not the C++ newsgroups. Are you saying
there is a lower percentage of newbies there having trouble with tools
not working?

The main problems I have with C is the non-standard libraries. Just
going from Debian to Red Hat can be a huge pain.

> I tell you, lot of my schoolmates would not even have passed the
> Ubuntu problems and get back directly to C++ with absolutely no desire
> to maybe, one day, check back at Ada. Nevertheless, I have to say that
> I find the integration on MS Windows very good.

"integration" with what? On MS Windows, GNAT 2009 is the only tool
around. 

> - First, one thing we can't argue.  Check on Distrowatch, Ubuntu is
> THE most popular distribution, by far.  I know a lot of serious
> programmer won't run on Ubuntu, but nevertheless, right after MS
> windows, the fresh blood is on Ubuntu, nowhere else.

Are we trying to attract serious programmers, or some other group of
people? When I'm looking at new people for my team, I ask if they are
comfortable with Emacs. If the answer is "tried it, didn't like it",
they are not likely to make it on my team.

> - Second, these days, in every engineering schools we learn C++ and or
> Java.  So samples and methods involving mixing Ada with C++ and Java
> code should work flawlessly.

That's a very high bar. 

I agree examples provided with tools should work. But examples of a good
tool working "flawlessly" with a bad tool is not so desireable.

> - Third, there is few, and a lot of bad tutorials around the web.

And many, many more bad C tutorials. The web is not run by any
organization; there is no way to "clean it up". 

> Check what the Python community achieved

Where, exactly? You are implying that _every_ Python tutorial on the web
is good. I'd be very surprised if that were true.

> - Finaly, I understand the community is small and maybe already makes
> its best to keep Ada alive but I think it is important to give you the
> feedback of a newbie, because, I am sure, most of the time, people
> like me just vanish without telling you why they have been put off by
> Ada.  It is not Ada the problem, it's the presentation of the
> technology which fails.

Thanks for your efforts here.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

suite...

sorry, my tab key, in the text, goes to the send button.  Bad design,
or setup.... Anyway.

- Backward: In the intro, clearly specify that Ada can easily replace
C/C++. (On various post, I often find C/C++ users contemptuous with
Ada.  Serve them their medicine)

iv. In the beginner section:

- Welcoming!
- Emphasis on what Ada has that others don't. Task, Real-Time etc.
Understandable explanation of the possibilities and reach.
- Recommend a particular online Ada class (I find this class/
tutorial : http://www.infres.enst.fr/~pautet/Ada95/a95list.htm very
good. Having source code that compiles well and illustrates all
lessons is very productive. It should be rewrite to use Ada2005 and
maybe a less verbose version for those who already have a programming
background)
 -Then offer all the other tutorials in a separate link.  This would
give the impression of cohesion in the offer of what you consider good
to learn from.
- Refers to books with proper summary and direct links. If legally it
can be done, direct links on amazon (look inside!).  Up to date, good
rated books.
- Collection of other tutorials. 3D, GTK, embedded projects etc. (fun
things!)
- Nice code projects. Ex: gather the code of this project (if the
author wants to open it): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkbuShAu8Ic
and make a companion document to go head first in the code, build the
project and have the reward of running it at home.  AdaCollision is
available right now.  Maybe something even simpler.
- Suggestion for implication in the community. Translation,
documentation, bindings etc.
- Official documentation ARM etc.

 v. In the normal user section:

- More advanced tutorial and code projects examples. (GPRbuild
tutorial, MarteOS exploration tutorials, GLOBE3D tutorials, SDL
tutorials, etc.)
- Official documentation and resources.
- A priority list of bindings, port, etc.
- Things can be redundant when it comes to link to resources and other
projects.  Some people might first think they are not beginners and
the other way around.

I have other ideas, but for now, I should stop writing emails and
start working on my Ada project AND a tutorial related to this work.

Stephen Leake wrote:

> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
> organized?

Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much
you bet Python is much more popular than Ada?  How do you think they
actually achieved that?  I know it is not geared toward the same use,
but the phenomenon is there, to the point that many people try to use
it on segment of computer programming where it should not belong.  You
can even compile natively nowadays

> I don't read the C newsgroups, not the C++ newsgroups. Are you saying
> there is a lower percentage of newbies there having trouble with tools
> not working?

No, for sure newbies go through much more trouble with tools that do
not work in C/C++, but the situation there is different.  There is
much more pressure, everywhere, for a new programmer to learn and
master C/C++ that they will hardly account for loads of shortcomings.
Once they become good, they get use to flaws and behave like dealing
with those is normal.  Some even go further by propagating the idea
that fixing these issues is actually good as it defines once
competences of understanding the language and the program at hand.

Ada can't pretend to have the 'credentials' to force its newbie base
to such a level of resilience.

> Are we trying to attract serious programmers, or some other group of
> people? When I'm looking at new people for my team, I ask if they are
> comfortable with Emacs. If the answer is "tried it, didn't like it",
> they are not likely to make it on my team.

This sounds elitist.  I am ok with that, but force is to admit that
many people with a lot of potential fall in the hand of the C/C++
dragged by a rip current much more strong then the Ada promises.
There is very good programmers out there that stays on MS windows all
their life and don't even know about Emacs.

> That's a very high bar.
> I agree examples provided with tools should work. But examples of a good
> tool working "flawlessly" with a bad tool is not so desireable.

Ok, "flawlessly" was strong.  They should definitely work though.
Ludovic agreed too.

> And many, many more bad C tutorials. The web is not run by any
> organization; there is no way to "clean it up".

There is no way to "clean up" internet  but there is ways to enforce
good directions and produce quality material that contrast even with
the best C/C++ documents and projects.

Thanks again for your time and concern.

Olivier

p.s: I switched Linux again.  Debian "squeeze" is very neat and quite
orthodox in the admin policies.  I love it. Thanks for the good work.
Also, I'll check how I can help on Ada Programming (wikibooks) once
you confirm that most open source activity for Ada is going on there.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Warren]

zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
d76c4c0e08ee@z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:

> Stephen Leake wrote:
> 
>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>> organized?
> 
> Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
> everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much
> you bet Python is much more popular than Ada?  How do you think they
> actually achieved that?  I know it is not geared toward the same use,
> but the phenomenon is there, to the point that many people try to use
> it on segment of computer programming where it should not belong.  You
> can even compile natively nowadays

I think this is a poor argument, as I am sure others will
vocalize.  Perl is another "popular" tool, with many add on
modules etc.  Both have their uses, but their popularity 
hardly makes a "superiority statement".  It only means that
they've been well accepted without implying much about their
application.  It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
based upon sales.

One aspect of programming that seems to be popular, is that
many programmers seem to prefer to have it compile and be 
wrong (if necessary) and then fix the issues as they discover
them.  They prefer tiny victories (if they got one) and
iterate to the final solution, through multiple edit +
compiles.

Ada OTOH, points out problems (often related to bad design) 
and tends to refuse to compile until "all is correct". By 
contrast, a small problem often works the first time after 
a successful Ada compile.

So how do you encourage ppl to "get it right" the first
time instead of accepting "early compile victories"?
emacs?

Warren

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[zeta_no]

On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...@gmail.com> wrote:
> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
> d76c4c0e0...@z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>
> > Stephen Leake wrote:
>
> >> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
> >> organized?
>
> > Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
> > everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much (...)

> Both have their uses, but their popularity
> hardly makes a "superiority statement".  It only means that
> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
> application.  It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
> based upon sales.

Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
open source language community is better organized?
Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old.  What happened
with Ada during those years?

... they closed university class on Ada.  (Ecole Polytechnique de
Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)

I heard about one other school here in Canada that did the same...

Olivier

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Georg Bauhaus]

On 15.06.10 15:45, zeta_no wrote:
> On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
>> d76c4c0e0...@z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Stephen Leake wrote:
>>
>>>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>>>> organized?
>>
>>> Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
>>> everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much (...)
> 
>>  Both have their uses, but their popularity
>> hardly makes a "superiority statement".  It only means that
>> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
>> application.  It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
>> based upon sales.
> 
> Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
> open source language community is better organized?
> Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old.  What happened
> with Ada during those years?
> 
> ... they closed university class on Ada.  (Ecole Polytechnique de
> Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)

Superficial observation tells that one generation of
teachers leaves schools, another is coming. Do they
have a choice when selecting a shiny reputable language?

Ada's early history may have been a debacle, both socially
and economically.  For proof see the 2nd � of

http://www.stsc.hill.af.mil/crosstalk/frames.asp?uri=1996/03/AnAdaFor.asp

If teachers' opinions have been shaped during that time, then
possibly they have not changed much, later.  Whatever arguments
against Ada have been invalidated by events, as a teacher wanting
to choose Ada you'd have to stand up against previous choices,
in particular against choices of influential colleagues still in
town...

However, there is the GNAT Academic Program, and the list
of participating universities is reportedly growing,
http://www.adacore.com/home/academia/members/

So if attracting teachers and students is a sign of community
organization, this should should be one data point.

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Niklas Holsti]

zeta_no wrote:
> On Jun 14, 4:55 pm, Warren <ve3...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> zeta_no expounded in news:c4259b0a-3d91-45e8-b88f-
>> d76c4c0e0...@z31g2000vbk.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> Stephen Leake wrote:
>>>> Compared to what? What other open source language community is better
>>>> organized?
>>> Python appeared in 1991.  It has bindings and projects for almost
>>> everything.  It is used everywhere on open source projects.  How much (...)
> 
>>  Both have their uses, but their popularity
>> hardly makes a "superiority statement".  It only means that
>> they've been well accepted without implying much about their
>> application.  It's like saying MS Windows is the best design
>> based upon sales.
> 
> Never said Python is superior to Ada, the question was: What other
> open source language community is better organized?
> Python, managed to attract armies of dev., new and old.  What happened
> with Ada during those years?
> 
> ... they closed university class on Ada.  (Ecole Polytechnique de
> Montreal, in Canada: INF6300, dead)
> 
> I heard about one other school here in Canada that did the same...

Some of them return to Ada. On c.l.a. on or around Oct 12, 2008, John 
McCormick wrote (in part):

 > When Java first burst upon the educational scene, my Department voted
 > to replace our successful Ada based course with a Java one. [snip]
 > After 5 years, the faculty teaching the upper level courses staged
 > a revolt. Their students' ability to write code (mostly in C) for
 > their projects had fallen tremendously from the days when we used
 > Ada in the beginning courses.  We switched back to Ada!

But John also wrote that the school was next starting to experiment with 
Python. It would be interesting to hear how that turned out, compared to 
Ada and Java.

-- 
Niklas Holsti
Tidorum Ltd
niklas holsti tidorum fi
       .      @       .

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Stephen Leake]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:

> So given the
> pretty political/computational mess inside our team, I am pretty sure
> my best bet is to always install the package from Adacore Libre, which
> is by the way GNAT 2009 (answer to Stephen).

That's reasonable. It is also the most modern of the compilers out
there, short of paying for AdaCore support.

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: GCC conflict on Ubuntu for mixed Ada/C++ project

[Ludovic Brenta]

zeta_no <olivier_henley@hotmail.com> writes:
> Hi to all,
>
> With the distribution of GNAT GPL form Adacore Libre comes some code
> examples like "ada_cpp" that presents mixed Ada/C++ projetcs.  My
> problem is the following: In GPS, for the project to build, we need
> GPRBUILD which uses GCC and the -gnat05 option.  Well, using GPRBUILD,
> the ouput of a BUILD ALL tells me that GCC 4.4 installed by Ubuntu was
> triggered, not GCC 4.3 coming with the GNAT distro.  How do I tell GPS
> and GPRBUILD to use the good GCC? The problem is on the Ubuntu side or
> GPRBUILD?
>
> We have to admit that my setup is ugly.  I use GPS and GPRBUILD from
> Adacore, but GNAT from Ubuntu.  That's not all.  I don't know why, but
> by using GNAT from Ubuntu, the second example from ada_cpp,
> animals.gpr, does not compile at all. I get the following error
> mesage:
>
> cannot import abstract subprogram "Number_Of_Teeth" declared at line
> 5.
> cannot imp...
>
> If someone could help me with my problem of GNAT versioning to resolve
> the good use of GCC, I would really appreciate.  Just to confirm, I
> did exported /usr/gnat/bin into my PATH env. variable.

Out of curiosity I reproduced your problem on Debian with the following
packages installed:

ii  gnat           4.4+1          The GNU Ada compiler
ii  gnat-4.4       4.4.4-2        The GNU Ada compiler
ii  gnat-4.4-base  4.4.4-2        The GNU Compiler Collection (gnat base packa
ii  gprbuild       1.3.0-1        a multi-language extensible build tool
ii  gprbuild-doc   1.3.0-1        a multi-language extensible build tool

What I did:

$ cp -a /usr/share/doc/gprbuild-doc/examples/ada_cpp .
$ cd ada_cpp
$ make
gprconfig --batch --config Ada,,sjlj  --config C++ -o default.cgpr
Creating configuration file: default.cgpr
gprbuild animals.gpr
gcc-4.4 -c -g -gnat05 -gnatwA main.adb
animals.ads:33:24: cannot import abstract subprogram "Number_Of_Teeth" declared at line 5
animals.ads:36:24: cannot import abstract subprogram "Set_Owner" declared at line 10
gprbuild: *** compilation phase failed
make: *** [all] Error 4

As you can see, this has nothing to to with GPS, gnatmake or gprbuild
and everything to do with gnat-4.4.

The version of gprbuild that Stephe packaged for Debian is identical to
that in GNAT GPL 2009, which has new functionality to help interfacing
Ada with C++.  gnat-4.4 lacks some of these features; it can iterface
with C++ but in more limited ways.  One interesting feature that is new
in GNAT GPL 2009 is the ability to generate an Ada spec file from C++
header files (i.e. g++ -fdump-ada-spec file.h).

If you want to use these latest features, you should use a clean
installation of GNAT GPL 2009; make sure you set your $PATH correctly to
see the GNAT GPL compiler and NOT the Ubuntu compiler.

-- 
Ludovic Brenta.