* Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel @ 2009-06-04 8:01 Ludovic Brenta 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-06-04 8:01 UTC (permalink / raw) Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers as Eiffel programmers. -- Ludovic Brenta. How many degrees does humour have? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 8:01 Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel Ludovic Brenta @ 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2009-06-04 22:41 ` lanceboyle 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 20:53 ` nobody 2 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2009-06-04 8:23 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT), Ludovic Brenta wrote: > Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream > programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer > approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas > the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not > a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers > as Eiffel programmers. I agree with the conclusion, but not with the way you came to it. (:-)) Yes it looks plausible that Ada is more popular than Eiffel, but measuring it by number of responses is barely representative. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov http://www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2009-06-04 22:41 ` lanceboyle 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: lanceboyle @ 2009-06-04 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jun 4, 1:23 am, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 01:01:54 -0700 (PDT), Ludovic Brenta wrote: > > Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream > > programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer > > approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas > > the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not > > a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers > > as Eiffel programmers. > > I agree with the conclusion, but not with the way you came to it. (:-)) Uh, I believe that Ludovic was making a joke. Jerry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 8:01 Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel Ludovic Brenta 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 13:45 ` Martin 2009-06-04 17:05 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 20:53 ` nobody 2 siblings, 2 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) @ 2009-06-04 11:55 UTC (permalink / raw) On 4 juin, 10:01, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream > programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer > approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas > the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not > a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers > as Eiffel programmers. > > -- > Ludovic Brenta. > How many degrees does humour have? Like Dimitry, I'm not sure such a conclusion can comes from such a fact. But it is sure by the way that Ada is more widely used than Eiffel. Ada is more impressive than Eiffel. May be somebody (I did it) come first to Eiffel and then after goes to Ada, after they understand that Eiffel cannot fulfill requirements of real world. What is sure, is that Ada user like the spirit of Eiffel, and Bertrand Meyer, the author of Eiffel, was largely inspired from Ada. There is a kind of friendship between Ada and Eiffel. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) @ 2009-06-04 13:45 ` Martin 2009-06-04 17:05 ` Pascal Obry 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Martin @ 2009-06-04 13:45 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jun 4, 12:55 pm, Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) <yannick_duch...@yahoo.fr> wrote: > On 4 juin, 10:01, Ludovic Brenta <ludo...@ludovic-brenta.org> wrote: > > > Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream > > programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer > > approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas > > the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not > > a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers > > as Eiffel programmers. > > > -- > > Ludovic Brenta. > > How many degrees does humour have? > > Like Dimitry, I'm not sure such a conclusion can comes from such a > fact. But it is sure by the way that Ada is more widely used than > Eiffel. Ada is more impressive than Eiffel. May be somebody (I did it) > come first to Eiffel and then after goes to Ada, after they understand > that Eiffel cannot fulfill requirements of real world. > > What is sure, is that Ada user like the spirit of Eiffel, and Bertrand > Meyer, the author of Eiffel, was largely inspired from Ada. > > There is a kind of friendship between Ada and Eiffel. The enemy of your enemy is your friend... I'll leave you to work out the common enemy! :-) Cheers -- Martin ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 13:45 ` Martin @ 2009-06-04 17:05 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 17:22 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2009-06-04 17:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: "Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)" Hibou57 (Yannick Duch�ne) a �crit : > What is sure, is that Ada user like the spirit of Eiffel, and Bertrand > Meyer, the author of Eiffel, was largely inspired from Ada. But he hates Ada for some reasons I have never understood... I talk to him (back in 1990 or 1991) one time the reaction was so bad... > There is a kind of friendship between Ada and Eiffel. Except from the Eiffel inventor, sad but true! -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net - http://v2p.fr.eu.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:05 ` Pascal Obry @ 2009-06-04 17:22 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) @ 2009-06-04 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw) On 4 juin, 19:05, Pascal Obry <pas...@obry.net> wrote: > But he hates Ada for some reasons I have never understood... I talk to > him (back in 1990 or 1991) one time the reaction was so bad... > Are you talking about Bertrand Meyer ? > Except from the Eiffel inventor, sad but true! What do you mean ? How could he be inspired from a language he hated ? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:22 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) @ 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert ` (3 more replies) 0 siblings, 4 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2009-06-04 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw) To: "Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne)" Hibou57 (Yannick Duch�ne) a �crit : > Are you talking about Bertrand Meyer ? Yes. >> Except from the Eiffel inventor, sad but true! > > What do you mean ? > > How could he be inspired from a language he hated ? Not sure he has said that Eiffel was inspired from Ada, maybe on the early days... IIRC, in his book Object-Oriented Software Construction there is very few (if any) references to Ada. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net - http://v2p.fr.eu.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry @ 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert 2009-06-04 19:56 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 19:05 ` Adam Beneschan ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Olivier Scalbert @ 2009-06-04 18:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry wrote: > Not sure he has said that Eiffel was inspired from Ada, maybe on the > early days... IIRC, in his book Object-Oriented Software Construction > there is very few (if any) references to Ada. > Hi, In the second edition of this book, there are around 75 references to Ada in the index. And there is also a 20 pages chapter called "O-O programming and Ada". By the way, in one of these pages, Oberon (which I completely forgot) was also mentioned ! Olivier. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert @ 2009-06-04 19:56 ` Pascal Obry 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2009-06-04 19:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Olivier Scalbert Olivier Scalbert a �crit : > In the second edition of this book, there are around 75 references to > Ada in the index. > And there is also a 20 pages chapter called "O-O programming and Ada". Ok, so I've misremembered this part or I'm confused about which book it was! Sorry about that. Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://www.obry.net - http://v2p.fr.eu.org --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" --| --| gpg --keyserver keys.gnupg.net --recv-key F949BD3B ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert @ 2009-06-04 19:05 ` Adam Beneschan 2009-06-04 20:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 2009-06-05 13:17 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Adam Beneschan @ 2009-06-04 19:05 UTC (permalink / raw) On Jun 4, 10:38 am, Pascal Obry <pas...@obry.net> wrote: > Not sure he has said that Eiffel was inspired from Ada, maybe on the > early days... IIRC, No, YDNRC. > in his book Object-Oriented Software Construction > there is very few (if any) references to Ada. In the edition I'm looking at (1988), Chapter 18 is called "Object- Oriented programming and Ada". That's a whole chapter that discusses this language (more than is done for any other individual language; C+ + just gets a one-page subsection). Plus, looking just at the index, there appear to be 13 references to Ada outside of this chapter. The beginning of Chapter 3.5 says, "Modular languages such as Modula-2 and Ada offer a first step towards more appropriate solutions." (But I guess that's not the same thing as saying he was "inspired" by it.) Also, the Wikipedia entry for Eiffel lists Ada (along with Simula and Z) as an influence---as a sidebar, with no attribution, so I don't know how accurate that is. A Google search didn't turn up much. It appears that Meyer has some criticisms of Ada, but I couldn't find anything that would indicate that he hates it. His Eiffel site has an article about the Ariane 5 crash, but he said there that the language couldn't really be blamed because the problem could have been caught using Ada's exception mechanism (even though I gather he doesn't like this mechanism) if the programmers had used it properly. -- Adam ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert 2009-06-04 19:05 ` Adam Beneschan @ 2009-06-04 20:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 2009-06-05 13:17 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2009-06-04 20:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry wrote: > Hibou57 (Yannick Duch�ne) a �crit : >> Are you talking about Bertrand Meyer ? > > Yes. > >>> Except from the Eiffel inventor, sad but true! >> What do you mean ? >> >> How could he be inspired from a language he hated ? > > Not sure he has said that Eiffel was inspired from Ada, maybe on the > early days... IIRC, in his book Object-Oriented Software Construction > there is very few (if any) references to Ada. The second edition is more eloquently discussing Ada 95. Ada 83 is characterized "sophisticated", Ada 95 is blamed for being overly complex, with examples, including LRM nomenclature. Similar comments can be found in the SPARK book, BTW. OOSC2 is the only reference I could find to Jean Ichbiah's resignation letter, sent to the Ada 9X reviewing group "after trying in vain for several years to keep the extensions simple". (p.1095) Meyer quotes from Ichbiah's letter: "A massive increase in complexity will result from 9X adding one or more additional possibilites where Ada now offers two. For example, 9X adds: [...] access parameters to in, out, and in out; tagged types, to normal types; dispatched subprogram calls, to normal subprogram calls; use type clause, to use package clause; [Other examples skipped; overall 12 were included.] With 9X, the number of interactions to consider is close to 60,000 since we have 3 more possiblitities in each case (that is, 3**10)." By contrast, there were comments explaining that Taft's Ada 95 is more of a compiler writer's language than Ichbiah's Ada 83. The number of occurrences of the word "simple" in OOSC2 is suspiciously high. Most of them refer to concepts embedded in Eiffel being simple. I find this a bit suspicious because complex problems cannot become simple problems just because language concepts are simple. We would be writing assembly language, then. For example, Ada has both variant records and variant tagged records, both explicit discriminants and implicit discriminants. A tag can be seen as an implicit discriminant. The tag as a discriminant seems to be an obvious choice when you implement OO starting from Ada 83, doesn't it? The tag discrimminates types. But then, we still have discriminated records. Why? This question is answered negatively in Meyer's OOSC2. Use different types (or program logic) but not also variant records. Stroustrup says, we should see wheter a minor distinction warrants different types. And there still are reasons for tagless small records, as Randy Brukardt has explained a few days ago. So what is the right choice in language design? Meyer favors simplicity---presuming, I guess, that, without exception, managing polymorphic types, relying on garbage collection, substituting many types for richer language rules is better than using variant records, their rules, case distinction, and struggling compilers. The latest issue with GNAT's discriminant handling, reported here today by Alex Mosteo (base type is interface, derived type has a discriminant) is yet another case of GNAT crashing into the discriminating knife. Does this prove that Meyer has a point? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2009-06-04 20:14 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2009-06-05 13:17 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen 3 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Jean-Pierre Rosen @ 2009-06-05 13:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Pascal Obry a �crit : >> How could he be inspired from a language he hated ? > > Not sure he has said that Eiffel was inspired from Ada, maybe on the > early days... IIRC, in his book Object-Oriented Software Construction > there is very few (if any) references to Ada. > For the record, B. Meyer was the founder of the Ada group of AFCET, which later became Ada-France. There is no doubt that Eiffel was inspired by Ada. -- --------------------------------------------------------- J-P. Rosen (rosen@adalog.fr) Visit Adalog's web site at http://www.adalog.fr ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel 2009-06-04 8:01 Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel Ludovic Brenta 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) @ 2009-06-04 20:53 ` nobody 2 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: nobody @ 2009-06-04 20:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Ludovic Brenta wrote: > Here is yet another statistical proof of Ada's success as a mainstream > programming language: the thread "Ada vs Eiffel - Ada programmer > approach" had 12 different contributors here on comp.lang.ada whereas > the symmetric thread on comp.lang.eiffel had just one (the OP) and not > a single response. Therefore, there are 12 times more Ada programmers > as Eiffel programmers. Perhaps you should try your conclusion at alt.folklore.statistics, which I hope exists because anything concerning statistics do not belong under sci. ;-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-06-05 13:17 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 14+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2009-06-04 8:01 Ada 12 times more popular than Eiffel Ludovic Brenta 2009-06-04 8:23 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2009-06-04 22:41 ` lanceboyle 2009-06-04 11:55 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 13:45 ` Martin 2009-06-04 17:05 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 17:22 ` Hibou57 (Yannick Duchêne) 2009-06-04 17:38 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 18:53 ` Olivier Scalbert 2009-06-04 19:56 ` Pascal Obry 2009-06-04 19:05 ` Adam Beneschan 2009-06-04 20:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 2009-06-05 13:17 ` Jean-Pierre Rosen 2009-06-04 20:53 ` nobody
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