* Group newbie ! @ 1996-12-22 0:00 Mike Paley 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1996-12-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ah sod it, I'll start a new thread ! Started at Aston University in Birmingham uk in October. :( God knows why they've chosen Ada - it ain't that popular in the UK! I suppose I'm looking for an Ada manual or user guide or whatever you wanna call it stuffed with hard facts. All I'm advised to get (by the uni), and books I see in shops are all "flowery"*. The sort of thing I'm after is a book with a chapter devoted to Ada statements, one per page (or so), giving an explanation, clear syntax, a couple of examples and a list of related or similar statements. The statements should be listed in alphabetical order as well. Any really useful pages to point browsers at would be useful as well, 2 (other thread) URLs noted. * Flowery - used in "A Christmas Carol" Crescent Theatre, Birmingham. 6-11th Jan 1997. TIA -- Comm again, Mike. MM MM EEEEE RRRR RRRR Y Y X X MM MM A SSS M M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M M A A S S M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M A A S M M EEEE RRRR RRRR Y X M M A A SSS M M E R R R R Y X X M M AAAAA S M M E R R R R Y X X M M A A S S M M EEEEE R R R R Y X X M M A A SSS Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-22 0:00 Group newbie ! Mike Paley @ 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio 1997-01-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 1996-12-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <441435224wnr@paley.demon.co.uk>, Mike Paley <mike@paley.demon.co.uk> writes: > God knows why they've chosen Ada - it ain't that popular in the UK! No doubt you would have learned some more popular language through other methods :-). > I suppose I'm looking for an Ada manual or user guide or whatever you > wanna call it stuffed with hard facts. All I'm advised to get (by the > uni), and books I see in shops are all "flowery"*. > > The sort of thing I'm after is a book with a chapter devoted to Ada > statements, one per page (or so), giving an explanation, clear syntax, > a couple of examples and a list of related or similar statements. The > statements should be listed in alphabetical order as well. > > Any really useful pages to point browsers at would be useful as well, 2 > (other thread) URLs noted. www.adahome.com gives pointers to almost everything Ada on the web. If the books you find reviewed there do not meet your standards, you might have to be more specific and one of the authors (they all seem to post here) will write one more to your needs the next time out :-). Considering that you might not be able to wait that long, give a try at some of what's there. The actual statements might be of less interest than what you currently see as fluff. After all, you _know_ that Ada must have an addition operator, and with a few tries you might even be able to guess what the syntax is for addition. But what will happen when you try to add two variables containing small integers and the compiler tells you they have different types and cannot be added? At that point, you really should have the background on how Ada handles typing (you knew it was strongly typed, but at some point even the most ardent fan of strong typing will cry "uncle" without that background information). Another area you might regard as superfluous at the start is all that stuff regarding compilation units and packages, etc. Do not be fooled. Ada compilers are well trained to complain bitterly over many instances of fuzziness that other compilers would let slide. Once you have got it right, it is really in your best interest use that piece again later on. That is where separate compilation units, and packages, and especially "generics" are important. In summary, for Ada a lot of the things you will need are those you probably don't know you need. For looking up specific items, the books tend to be well indexed and the on-line aids have hypertext links everywhere you need. Many compilers will even quote you the chapter and paragraph number of your alleged language standard violation, or even pop your browser into the relevant page. Larry Kilgallen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1996-12-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <1996Dec22.214856.1@eisner> kilgallen@eisner.decus.org (Larry Kilgallen) writes: :) > God knows why they've chosen Ada - it ain't that popular in the UK! :) :) No doubt you would have learned some more popular language through :) other methods :-). Like going out and buying a "popular" compiler and do a DIY job on it. I could still do that and use the university as a "front". :) :) > I suppose I'm looking for an Ada manual or user guide or whatever you :) > wanna call it stuffed with hard facts. All I'm advised to get (by the :) > uni), and books I see in shops are all "flowery"*. :) > :) > The sort of thing I'm after is a book with a chapter devoted to Ada :) > statements, one per page (or so), giving an explanation, clear syntax, :) > a couple of examples and a list of related or similar statements. The :) > statements should be listed in alphabetical order as well. :) > :) > Any really useful pages to point browsers at would be useful as well, 2 :) > (other thread) URLs noted. :) :) www.adahome.com gives pointers to almost everything Ada on the web. Noted, for later perusal. :) :) If the books you find reviewed there do not meet your standards, :) you might have to be more specific and one of the authors (they all :) seem to post here) will write one more to your needs the next time out :-). It wouldn't surprise me if one doesn't exist already. What do you get when you buy an Ada compiler anyway ? [Probably not a lot since manuals seem to be well out of fashion when you buy computers, peripherals or software nowadays.] :) :) Considering that you might not be able to wait that long, :) give a try at some of what's there. The actual statements might :) be of less interest than what you currently see as fluff. I'm not after interest, I'm after hard facts. After :) all, you _know_ that Ada must have an addition operator, and with :) a few tries you might even be able to guess what the syntax is for :) addition. :) :) But what will happen when you try to add two variables containing :) small integers and the compiler tells you they have different types :) and cannot be added? I made a guess at the type string. It gave an error, so I added a bit more: string(20) and still got an error. Checked in a recommended book and saw fluff. Fortunately, there were answers to problems in the back of the book and a few seconds browse through them I found: string(1..20) - problem solved. From further investigation, I think I've only scratched the surface of the type, but it is far more than they've done at the university. At that point, you really should have the :) background on how Ada handles typing (you knew it was strongly typed, :) but at some point even the most ardent fan of strong typing will cry :) "uncle" without that background information). What do you mean by "strong typing" ? :) :) Another area you might regard as superfluous at the start is all :) that stuff regarding compilation units and packages, etc. Do not be :) fooled. I'm here to learn - to find out how Ada works. I'll not ignore facts but it is trying to get the facts out of the fluff that's the problem. Ada compilers are well trained to complain bitterly over :) many instances of fuzziness that other compilers would let slide. Yeah ! it's a shame ! Possibly this is why they've chosen Ada - to stop sloppy practices ! :) Once you have got it right, it is really in your best interest :) use that piece again later on. This one of the points that they do make. Create a piece of code that does a job then re-use it where the same thing is needed, sometimes with small modifications as necessary. That is where separate compilation :) units, and packages, and especially "generics" are important. One day I'll look up "generic" in a dictionary and try to remember what it says about it ! :) :) In summary, for Ada a lot of the things you will need are those :) you probably don't know you need. True of many things ! For looking up specific items, :) the books tend to be well indexed and the on-line aids have hypertext :) links everywhere you need. Many compilers will even quote you the :) chapter and paragraph number of your alleged language standard violation, :) or even pop your browser into the relevant page. :) :) Larry Kilgallen :) :) Thanks very much Larry, I'll also keep my eye on this group as well :) -- Comm again, Mike. MM MM EEEEE RRRR RRRR Y Y X X MM MM A SSS M M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M M A A S S M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M A A S M M EEEE RRRR RRRR Y X M M A A SSS M M E R R R R Y X X M M AAAAA S M M E R R R R Y X X M M A A S S M M EEEEE R R R R Y X X M M A A SSS Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Mike Paley @ 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 1996-12-28 0:00 ` john babrick 1996-12-29 0:00 ` john babrick 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Norman H. Cohen @ 1996-12-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Mike Paley wrote: > I made a guess at the type string. It gave an error, so I added a bit more: > string(20) and still got an error. Checked in a recommended book and saw > fluff. Fortunately, there were answers to problems in the back of the book > and a few seconds browse through them I found: > string(1..20) - problem solved. Somewhere in all that "fluff", there was, no doubt, an explanation of "unconstrained array types" and "index constraints". Had you read it, the "fluff" would have explained that String is an unconstrained array type, and that when you declare an object of an unconstrained array type, you must specify either an initial value, an index constraint like (1..20), or both. And you would then be well on your way to understanding not only how to declare strings, but how to write, read, and use general-purpose array-manipulation routines, e.g. a function to sum all the elements in an array of arbitrary length. It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts underlying the syntax. -- Norman H. Cohen mailto:ncohen@watson.ibm.com http://www.research.ibm.com/people/n/ncohen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen @ 1996-12-28 0:00 ` john babrick 1996-12-29 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-29 0:00 ` john babrick 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: john babrick @ 1996-12-28 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts underlying the syntax. > Way to go Normie !!! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-28 0:00 ` john babrick @ 1996-12-29 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-30 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1996-12-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <32C56A7A.6BDD@earthlink.net> john babrick <antialias@earthlink.net> writes: :) > It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts underlying the syntax. :) > :) :) Way to go Normie !!! :) Are you implying I can't do that from the syntax ? -- Comm again, Mike. If I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies. To prevent this re-occurring, next time you read one of my posts, wear a blindfold. Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-29 0:00 ` Mike Paley @ 1996-12-30 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 1997-01-02 0:00 ` Mike Paley 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Norman H. Cohen @ 1996-12-30 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Mike Paley wrote: > > It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts > > underlying the syntax. > > Are you implying I can't do that from the syntax ? I certainly am. Consider the example that started this thread, the need to specify an index constraint for an uninitialized variable of type String. The syntax of a variable declaration tells you that a variable declaration includes a subtype name (or, as the syntax rules call it, a "subtype mark") optionally followed by a constraint, and the syntax tells you the various forms that constraints may take. But the syntax does not explain which kinds of constraints are compatible with which kinds of subtype marks, or which kinds of variable declarations REQUIRE a constraint. You have to read the "fluff" to understand that. -- Norman H. Cohen mailto:ncohen@watson.ibm.com http://www.research.ibm.com/people/n/ncohen ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-30 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen @ 1997-01-02 0:00 ` Mike Paley 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1997-01-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <32C813AA.1F29@watson.ibm.com> "Norman H. Cohen" <ncohen@watson.ibm.com> writes: :) > > It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts :) > > underlying the syntax. :) > :) > Are you implying I can't do that from the syntax ? :) :) I certainly am. :) :) Consider the example that started this thread, the need to specify an :) index constraint for an uninitialized variable of type String. The :) syntax of a variable declaration tells you that a variable declaration :) includes a subtype name (or, as the syntax rules call it, a "subtype :) mark") optionally followed by a constraint, and the syntax tells you the :) various forms that constraints may take. But the syntax does not :) explain which kinds of constraints are compatible with which kinds of :) subtype marks, or which kinds of variable declarations REQUIRE a :) constraint. You have to read the "fluff" to understand that. :) You only get the one concept from the one syntax. I can work out what's going on from one line, but can't work out alternatives. I'd like to say more on this but I've "timed-out" :( ! :) BTW, I was not pleased to find a semicolon was more than an end of statement marker and a character. -- Comm again, Mike. If I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies. To prevent this re-occurring, next time you read one of my posts, wear a blindfold. Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 1996-12-28 0:00 ` john babrick @ 1996-12-29 0:00 ` john babrick 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: john babrick @ 1996-12-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > It really is worth investing the effort to learn the concepts underlying the syntax. > Way to go Normie !!! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-22 0:00 Group newbie ! Mike Paley 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio 1996-12-25 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-27 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1997-01-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Rich Maggio @ 1996-12-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Mike, I, like you, was provided with the "opportunity" to learn Ada in a data structures class that I took. I am an experienced "C" programmer and was not all that happy about the fact that I had to delve into learning another programming language as part of the course. But, as you may have noted by my recent post to the news group, I am glad that I took the oppertunity. I won't repeat it here. I started with the Barnes Ada 95 book. I don't recommend this for a beginner (to Ada that is) because it goes into too much detail and is very overwhelming. I was overwhelmed by it an I write "C" code for a living! My teacher lent me a book by Michael Feldman. The exact title escapes me, but it has Ada 95 in the title. An excellent book. This book, in combination with the Barnes Ada 95 book, were just what the doctor ordered. The thing missing in the Barnes book is complete examples. The Feldman book has PLENTY. The Feldman book starts out easy and gets into the more complicated stuff at a nice pace without being boring. As I recall, there is an appendix in the back that shows abbreviated syntax rules. A very useful book. Also, familiarize yourself with the Adahome website. I found out about this only recently and I wish I knew about it back in September. Get youself a copy of the GNAT compiler - it's free and it works GREAT! If you have a DOS machine, the EZ2LOAD package is a breeze to both install and use. So, I recommend that you get the GNAT compiler and spend some time familiarizing yourself with it. Get the Feldman book and work with some of the very simple examples to get going with the compiler. Get familiar with GDB (the debugger) also. It's best to do this BEFORE you have a project due the next day and you can't track down a bug in your code! One last thing - if you get the GNAT package, be sure to read the file EZ2LOAD.DOC from beginning to end before you even fire the compiler up. There are lots of little things in there that you NEED to know to be successful with the compiler. There are some things that it is picky about (namely file naming conventions) that will drive you up the wall if you have to figure it out on your own. Just thought I would share some of my experience - maybe some out there can benefit from it, as well as you Mike. Hope it helps! Rich Maggio > I suppose I'm looking for an Ada manual or user guide or whatever you > wanna call it stuffed with hard facts. All I'm advised to get (by the > uni), and books I see in shops are all "flowery"*. > > The sort of thing I'm after is a book with a chapter devoted to Ada > statements, one per page (or so), giving an explanation, clear syntax, > a couple of examples and a list of related or similar statements. The > statements should be listed in alphabetical order as well. > > Any really useful pages to point browsers at would be useful as well, 2 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio @ 1996-12-25 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-27 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1996-12-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <E2wHqA.oE@nonexistent.com> Rich Maggio <maggior@world2u.com> writes: :) My teacher lent me a book by Michael Feldman. The exact title escapes :) me, :) but it has Ada 95 in the title. An excellent book. This book, in :) combination Thanks Rich, great information there :)))) Does: MB Feldman & EB Koffman - Ada95 - Problem Solving and Program Design, Addison-Wesley, 1995 ring any bells ? It is listed on my reading list. Barnes is not on the list but I've seen it on bookshelves. I've also forwarded your posting to my mailbox ! -- Comm again, Mike. MM MM EEEEE RRRR RRRR Y Y X X MM MM A SSS M M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M M A A S S M M M E R R R R Y Y X X M M M A A S M M EEEE RRRR RRRR Y X M M A A SSS M M E R R R R Y X X M M AAAAA S M M E R R R R Y X X M M A A S S M M EEEEE R R R R Y X X M M A A SSS Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio 1996-12-25 0:00 ` Mike Paley @ 1996-12-27 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Mike Paley @ 1996-12-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <E2wHqA.oE@nonexistent.com> Rich Maggio <maggior@world2u.com> writes: :) Get yourself a copy of the GNAT compiler From where ? the Adahome page ? -- Comm again, Mike. If I have offended anyone, please accept my apologies. To prevent this re-occurring, next time you read one of my posts, wear a blindfold. Ex Turnpike user. If you want to see the rest of this sig. file or find out more about me, have a look at http://www.paley.demon.co.uk/ [1996:11:30] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: Group newbie ! 1996-12-22 0:00 Group newbie ! Mike Paley 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio @ 1997-01-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 1997-01-05 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Mike says "The sort of thing I'm after is a book with a chapter devoted to Ada statements, one per page (or so), giving an explanation, clear syntax, a couple of examples and a list of related or similar statements. The statements should be listed in alphabetical order as well." The fact that you think this would be an appropriate way to present a programming language shows that you do have a lot to learn from Ada! The fundamental concepts of a language like Ada revolve around its notion of types and objects and operations. The statement forms are a relatively trivial part of the language. I suspect what you need is one of the "flowery" books. Meanwhile, try rumaging around at www.adahome.com By the way, Ada is probably a good choice for teaching. One thing to remember is that the purpose of the course you are taking has nothing to do with learning to code in some language, or gathering coding skills. it has to do with learning some fundamnental concepts about programming languages and programming. You seem to assume that the appropriate choice for a programming language for teaching would be necessarily to use a widely used language -- this is a common misconception, particularly among those just starting to learn programming! It is a little like expecting a math course to begin with useful stuff like how to balance a checkbook :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1997-01-05 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1996-12-22 0:00 Group newbie ! Mike Paley 1996-12-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 1996-12-28 0:00 ` john babrick 1996-12-29 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-30 0:00 ` Norman H. Cohen 1997-01-02 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-29 0:00 ` john babrick 1996-12-24 0:00 ` Rich Maggio 1996-12-25 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1996-12-27 0:00 ` Mike Paley 1997-01-05 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
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