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From: Maciej Sobczak <see.my.homepage@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: How do I write directly to a memory address?
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 13:45:07 -0800 (PST)
Date: 2011-03-01T13:45:07-08:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <4806cba6-7087-407f-a078-66326ba9d455@k16g2000vbq.googlegroups.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: dhc47jzxsgd7.r3zlc9ea9a2c$.dlg@40tude.net

On 9 Lut, 22:38, "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mail...@dmitry-kazakov.de>
wrote:

> > No, because formal and actual are distinct objects in C.
>
> So what? It seems that you are confusing parameter passing mode and
> substitution.

It seems that you are trying to use the Ada terminology with regard to
C, which has its own terminology. And, by the way, its own standard.

> > For sure the word "constructor" does not appear in the C standard, not
> > even once, so I would not bet my money on this requirement.
>
> I used the term constructor because semantically this is not an assignment.

As I have already pointed out some posts before, your recognized style
of discussing is to warp definitions indefinitely just to prove your
point, whatever it is.
The problem is - C has its own standard and that standard says *black
on white* that this is an assignment. The standard says so. Amen. End
of story. If you say something else, then you are going nowhere.

> Assignment destroys the target and then constructs new object.

No. Assignment does not destroy anything and does not construct
anything. Especially in the languages that has no destructors and no
constructors. The standard says so.

Ironically, you got it wrong not only for C (by completely ignoring
its own standard), but you have even got it wrong for Ada (5.2/1):

"An assignment_statement replaces the current value of a variable with
the result of evaluating an expression."

No destruction and no construction is mentioned in this chapter. Not
even once.

And it would be surprising to see them there, because in Ada, as in C,
the identity of the mutable object is preserved across assignment.
Atomicity of the process is yet another story. You would have to
invent a lot of additional stuff up in order for your theory to be
self consistent.

> No, I am applying a typed language terminology.

Your own terminology? Destruction and construction are processes that
do not need to occur in order for the assignment to take place and
this has nothing to do with any given language being typed or not. You
are just making things up now.

We are going nowhere with this discussion.

--
Maciej Sobczak * www.msobczak.com * www.inspirel.com



  reply	other threads:[~2011-03-01 21:45 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 381+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-02-03  5:52 How do I write directly to a memory address? Syntax Issues
2011-02-03  8:00 ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-03  8:01   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 13:34   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-02-03  8:08 ` mockturtle
2011-02-03 18:07   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 13:43   ` Yannick Duchêne (Hibou57)
2011-02-08 21:07     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  2:21     ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-03  8:24 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-03 10:50   ` Syntax Issues
2011-02-03 11:03   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-03 18:24   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-04  9:21     ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-03 21:30   ` Florian Weimer
2011-02-04  9:24   ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-04 10:31     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-04 11:07       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-04 17:35       ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-04 16:00     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-04 17:40       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-04 18:35         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-05  5:17           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-04 21:36       ` Shark8
2011-02-04 23:00       ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-05  0:20         ` John B. Matthews
2011-02-05 14:56       ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-07 14:59         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-07 16:24           ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 16:44             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-07 17:02               ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-01 20:27             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-01 20:47               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:17                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-01 21:37                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:54                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  8:42                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 14:36                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:30                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 15:40                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 16:25                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 16:40                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 18:44                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 18:59                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 17:21                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 17:40                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 18:04                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 18:29                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:55                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 22:10                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  8:14                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03  8:04                                 ` Simon Wright
2011-03-03  8:23                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03  8:50                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  7:54                               ` Simon Wright
2011-03-02 20:34                   ` KK6GM
2011-03-02 20:59                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:03                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-02 21:13                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 21:34                           ` KK6GM
2011-03-03  1:09                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  1:38                               ` KK6GM
2011-03-03  2:42                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02 23:18                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-02 23:26                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  0:46                               ` Edward Fish
2011-03-03  1:03                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  3:01                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-03  6:05                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  8:52                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 17:51                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 18:32                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 20:08                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:55                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-03 22:08                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 20:34                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-04  0:22                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-04  3:21                                         ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-04 16:48                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:24                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-03 21:32                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 21:39                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-03-03 21:44                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03 22:28                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-01 21:52               ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-01 22:08                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  0:41                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02  2:59                     ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-03  1:44                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-02 14:26                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 14:34                       ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-02 14:59                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:19                           ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-02 15:35                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02 15:49                           ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-03-02 16:03                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-03  2:23                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-03-03  5:48                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-03-02  9:19                   ` Pascal Obry
2011-03-02  9:31                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02  9:45                       ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-03-02 10:24                         ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-03-02 11:16                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-02 14:51                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-06 17:49     ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-06 18:18       ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-06 19:05         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-06 20:01           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-06 21:27             ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-06 23:08               ` Shark8
2011-02-07  6:38                 ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-07  7:23                   ` Shark8
2011-02-07  8:31                     ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-07 12:31                       ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-07 12:42                         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-07 21:54                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-08  0:21                             ` Bill Findlay
2011-02-08  1:06                             ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-21  7:17                               ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 12:46                             ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 13:12                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-08 18:03                               ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-07  8:38               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07  9:05                 ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-07  9:24                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 23:11                     ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-08 18:14                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 21:48                         ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-09  8:43                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 21:07                             ` Maciej Sobczak
2011-02-09 21:38                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-03-01 21:45                                 ` Maciej Sobczak [this message]
2011-02-07  9:00             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 13:43               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-07 13:56                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 14:58                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-07 15:21                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 16:14                       ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 17:23                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 18:38                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-07 21:38                           ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-07 22:41                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-07 18:10                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-07 19:27                         ` Simon Wright
2011-02-07 19:29                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-07 16:54                     ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-07 17:55                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08  8:04                         ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08  9:01                           ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-08  9:08                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08  9:43                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 19:53                             ` Shark8
2011-02-08  9:46                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08  9:58                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:03                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:08                                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:27                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:15                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-08 16:48                                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 18:25                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 20:48                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:24                                       ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 21:41                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09  8:59                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:25                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:03                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:19                                                 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 21:10                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:42                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:11                             ` Pascal Obry
2011-02-08 17:24                               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 18:27                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 18:43                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 10:10                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:14                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:31                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 18:30                               ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 18:47                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:11                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-08 20:27                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:52                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:21                                         ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-08 21:35                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09  0:03                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09  0:14                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:51                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10  4:30                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-11  2:16                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 15:34                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 16:15                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 16:43                                             ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 17:49                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 17:54                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:15                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:25                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 20:16                                                   ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 20:33                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 16:48                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 17:49                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:07                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:36                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 19:12                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:41                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-09 20:00                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:25                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:20                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:23                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:40                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 23:59                                                                   ` Robert A Duff
2011-02-09 20:01                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:56                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:47                                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 21:51                                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 21:56                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:01                                                               ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-10  3:08                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 22:31                                                   ` Anonymous
2011-02-09 22:34                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:41                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:52                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
     [not found]                                                 ` <4d52d7d9$0$18057$882e7ee2@usenet-news.ne t>
2011-02-10  3:03                                                   ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 18:23                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:31                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:20                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 19:43                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:29                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-09 21:26                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:40                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-09 22:09                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:23                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-09 22:31                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 22:38                                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:50                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  0:16                                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-10 15:28                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 16:38                                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-10 16:46                                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:23                                                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10 17:33                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 23:07                                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 23:24                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  0:35                                                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-10 15:38                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 17:05                                                                           ` Shark8
2011-02-10 17:40                                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 18:22                                                                               ` Shark8
2011-02-10 19:20                                                                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-11  8:26                                                                               ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-11 10:22                                                                                 ` Nasser M. Abbasi
2011-02-11 16:10                                                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 18:04                                                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-11 18:31                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 18:42                                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:52                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:02                                                                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 19:41                                                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-11 18:43                                                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:57                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:15                                                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 20:29                                                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-11 20:42                                                                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11 18:52                                                                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-11 19:02                                                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10 17:30                                                                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-09 18:10                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:56                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09 21:15                                         ` Anonymous
2011-02-08 19:43                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 20:01                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 20:27                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 20:41                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:06                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 21:13                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:16                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:41                                         ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-09 18:39                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:29                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 20:44                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  3:03                                                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-10 19:07                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-11  7:19                                                     ` Stephen Leake
2011-02-11 18:43                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 10:42                                         ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 18:39                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:48                                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-09 18:55                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 22:03                                                 ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-09 22:25                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-10  3:07                                                     ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-10  6:09                                                     ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-10 17:48                                                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 21:30                                             ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 22:05                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:42                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:09                                     ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:25                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:46                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:59                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:44                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:54                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:59                                                 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 19:21                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:30                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 19:44                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 20:08                                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:49                                         ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 21:51                                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:13                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:04                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 22:12                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 23:03                                             ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 22:30                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-09 10:19                                         ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-09 15:09                                         ` KK6GM
2011-02-09  0:13                                       ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-09  1:56                                         ` Shark8
2011-02-09  2:33                                           ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-09 15:49                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:29                                               ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-21  7:17                                             ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 20:04                                   ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 20:44                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-08 21:19                                       ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-09  9:21                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 15:20                                           ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 16:39                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 16:46                                               ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 17:15                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 17:46                                                   ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:02                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:17                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:34                                                       ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 18:52                                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 19:48                                                           ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 20:09                                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 20:52                                                             ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 21:45                                                               ` Simon Wright
2011-02-09 22:13                                                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:53                                                   ` KK6GM
2011-02-09 19:20                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 21:31                                       ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:50                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-08 21:56                                           ` Simon Clubley
2011-02-08 22:41                                             ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:12                                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:29                                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-09 18:49                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-09 18:36                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-09 18:51                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2011-02-21  7:17                                         ` David Thompson
2011-02-08 20:55                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 21:26                                   ` Jeffrey Carter
2011-02-09  7:59                                   ` Mart van de Wege
2011-02-09  9:16                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2011-02-09 10:28                                       ` Mart van de Wege
2011-02-09 15:57                                         ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-10  3:36                                           ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-10  6:35                                             ` J-P. Rosen
2011-02-08 10:11                           ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:16                             ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 10:36                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 10:43                                 ` Ludovic Brenta
2011-02-08 12:20                                   ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 20:21                             ` Shark8
2011-02-08 21:46                               ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 22:35                                 ` Shark8
2011-02-10  2:18                             ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-08 15:36               ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 16:44                 ` Adam Beneschan
2011-02-08 17:13                   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-08 18:33                     ` Georg Bauhaus
2011-02-08 18:39                       ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-03 17:43 ` John McCormick
2011-02-12  4:47 ` Edward Fish
2011-02-12  8:02   ` Niklas Holsti
2011-02-14  0:09   ` Hyman Rosen
2011-02-15  0:25     ` Randy Brukardt
2011-02-19  4:21       ` Edward Fish
2011-02-13  1:04 ` anon
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