* incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..)
@ 2003-01-07 16:01 Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-01-08 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-01-08 22:00 ` incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Ted Dennison
0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread
From: Alexandre E. Kopilovitch @ 2003-01-07 16:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote:
>A need in a meta language indicates that the core language is incomplete.
>Then the question is only whether this incompleteness is inherent or not.
>As long as the former is not proved I will claim that we do not need a meta
>language.
But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks Godel),
that every language that is rich enough is necessarily incomplete.
Alexander Kopilovitch aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) 2003-01-07 16:01 incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Alexandre E. Kopilovitch @ 2003-01-08 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-01-08 14:35 ` incomplete languages Karel Miklav 2003-01-08 22:00 ` incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Ted Dennison 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-01-08 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) Alexandre E. Kopilovitch wrote: > "Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: >>A need in a meta language indicates that the core language is incomplete. >>Then the question is only whether this incompleteness is inherent or not. >>As long as the former is not proved I will claim that we do not need a >>meta language. > > But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks > Godel), that every language that is rich enough is necessarily incomplete. Incomplete for what? If a language should be complete for everything, then meta language is also no answer, because it in turn will be also incomplete. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-08 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-01-08 14:35 ` Karel Miklav 2003-01-10 13:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-01-14 1:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 0 siblings, 2 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-08 14:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: > Alexandre E. Kopilovitch wrote: >>"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: >>>A need in a meta language indicates that the core language is incomplete. >>>Then the question is only whether this incompleteness is inherent or not. >>>As long as the former is not proved I will claim that we do not need a >>>meta language. >> >>But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks >>Godel), that every language that is rich enough is necessarily incomplete. > > Incomplete for what? If a language should be complete for everything, then > meta language is also no answer, because it in turn will be also > incomplete. I have this problem: I'm designing an object database, objects are directly stored in it. There's no need for SQL as I can load objects from disk and check them, update them etc in native language. All is good and well, until I move my database on a remote computer. Then, how am I supposed to do queries? My database (object store actualy) is dumb, downloading a whole database contents for each query is not a solution, so I have to export logic to the remote database server. This logic can be written in Ada like syntax, but clearly not in Ada, the language. So; Ada can be compiled, but compiled objects cannot be remotely exported. My thoughts went in a direction of meta language or meta platform, as it looks like averybody else's. But since David looks so shure there must be some other way to export logic remotely (I mean without double coding and/or meta languages (while we're here: what is Ada, a language or a platform?))? Regards, Karel Miklav ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-08 14:35 ` incomplete languages Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-10 13:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-01-14 1:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 1 sibling, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-01-10 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw) Karel Miklav wrote: > > Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote: >> Alexandre E. Kopilovitch wrote: >>>"Dmitry A. Kazakov" <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote: >>>>A need in a meta language indicates that the core language is >>>>incomplete. Then the question is only whether this incompleteness is >>>>inherent or not. As long as the former is not proved I will claim that >>>>we do not need a meta language. >>> >>>But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks >>>Godel), that every language that is rich enough is necessarily >>>incomplete. >> >> Incomplete for what? If a language should be complete for everything, >> then meta language is also no answer, because it in turn will be also >> incomplete. > > I have this problem: I'm designing an object database, objects are > directly stored in it. There's no need for SQL as I can load objects > from disk and check them, update them etc in native language. All is > good and well, until I move my database on a remote computer. Then, how > am I supposed to do queries? My database (object store actualy) is dumb, > downloading a whole database contents for each query is not a solution, > so I have to export logic to the remote database server. This logic can > be written in Ada like syntax, but clearly not in Ada, the language. Isn't JGNAT and similar things for that? [if JGNAT were continued of course] > So; Ada can be compiled, but compiled objects cannot be remotely > exported. My thoughts went in a direction of meta language or meta > platform, as it looks like averybody else's. But since David looks so > shure there must be some other way to export logic remotely (I mean > without double coding and/or meta languages (while we're here: what is > Ada, a language or a platform?))? IMO each language is more or less a platform. -- Regards, Dmitry A. Kazakov www.dmitry-kazakov.de ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-08 14:35 ` incomplete languages Karel Miklav 2003-01-10 13:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-01-14 1:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-01-14 2:20 ` John R. Strohm 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-01-14 1:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Karel Miklav <karel@inetis.spppambait.com> wrote: : so I have to export logic to the remote database server. This logic can : be written in Ada like syntax, but clearly not in Ada, the language. Couldn't you, practically, split your program into partitions, one running on the database computer, using Ada from the Distributed Systems annex? -- georg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-14 1:14 ` Georg Bauhaus @ 2003-01-14 2:20 ` John R. Strohm 2003-01-14 7:33 ` Karel Miklav 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: John R. Strohm @ 2003-01-14 2:20 UTC (permalink / raw) "Georg Bauhaus" <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message news:avvoa2$dbo$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de... > Karel Miklav <karel@inetis.spppambait.com> wrote: > : so I have to export logic to the remote database server. This logic can > : be written in Ada like syntax, but clearly not in Ada, the language. > > Couldn't you, practically, split your program into partitions, one > running on the database computer, using Ada from the Distributed Systems > annex? It sounded to me as though he wanted that built into the language, so that the programmer would neither know nor care whether the program was focused in one CPU or distributed across many, by an unspecified communications subsystem. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-14 2:20 ` John R. Strohm @ 2003-01-14 7:33 ` Karel Miklav 2003-01-14 8:49 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-14 7:33 UTC (permalink / raw) John R. Strohm wrote: > "Georg Bauhaus" <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> wrote in message > news:avvoa2$dbo$1@a1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de... > >>Karel Miklav <karel@inetis.spppambait.com> wrote: >>: so I have to export logic to the remote database server. This logic can >>: be written in Ada like syntax, but clearly not in Ada, the language. >> >>Couldn't you, practically, split your program into partitions, one >>running on the database computer, using Ada from the Distributed Systems >>annex? > > It sounded to me as though he wanted that built into the language, so that > the programmer would neither know nor care whether the program was focused > in one CPU or distributed across many, by an unspecified communications > subsystem. An application server like web server or an SQL database has to accept data and code from its clients. It can parse scripts, but it generally has no clue about compiled programs and binary objects it receives, unless they are described in another language like IDL, ODL, WSDL or something. If everything could be just written once, that would be perfect; but are compiled languages reflexive enough for something like that? The answer is no, by definition; but with some binding technology... Isn't it true, that we can express everything in english? Regards, Karel Miklav ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-14 7:33 ` Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-14 8:49 ` tmoran 2003-01-14 9:03 ` Karel Miklav 0 siblings, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2003-01-14 8:49 UTC (permalink / raw) > An application server like web server or an SQL database has to accept > data and code from its clients. It can parse scripts, but it generally > has no clue about compiled programs and binary objects it receives, > unless they are described in another language like IDL, ODL, WSDL or > something. A server is a program. It can be as dumb or as smart as you make it. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages 2003-01-14 8:49 ` tmoran @ 2003-01-14 9:03 ` Karel Miklav 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-14 9:03 UTC (permalink / raw) tmoran@acm.org wrote: >>An application server like web server or an SQL database has to accept >>data and code from its clients. It can parse scripts, but it generally >>has no clue about compiled programs and binary objects it receives, >>unless they are described in another language like IDL, ODL, WSDL or >>something. > > A server is a program. It can be as dumb or as smart as you make it. You're right. It could understand your scripts, you could even make him to somehow understand compiled Ada code but never a custom serialized object - without a binding language. And Ada, the language does not provide it, as far as I'm informed. I'm only learning but the closest thing I've seen so far is GnatCom. It would be nice if something like that was built into Ada. Regards, Karel Miklav ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) 2003-01-07 16:01 incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Alexandre E. Kopilovitch 2003-01-08 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov @ 2003-01-08 22:00 ` Ted Dennison 2003-01-09 6:35 ` Karel Miklav 1 sibling, 1 reply; 11+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2003-01-08 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Alexandre E. Kopilovitch" <aek@vib.usr.pu.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1041959403.11003.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>... > But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks Godel), > that every language that is rich enough is necessarily incomplete. ...or inconsistent. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
* Re: incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) 2003-01-08 22:00 ` incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Ted Dennison @ 2003-01-09 6:35 ` Karel Miklav 0 siblings, 0 replies; 11+ messages in thread From: Karel Miklav @ 2003-01-09 6:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > "Alexandre E. Kopilovitch" <aek@vib.usr.pu.ru> wrote in message news:<mailman.1041959403.11003.comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org>... > >>But it is well-known fact (from the first half of 20 century, thanks Godel), >>that every language that is rich enough is necessarily incomplete. > > ...or inconsistent. ...so the solution is a meta language? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 11+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2003-01-14 9:03 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 11+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2003-01-07 16:01 incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Alexandre E. Kopilovitch 2003-01-08 13:10 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-01-08 14:35 ` incomplete languages Karel Miklav 2003-01-10 13:49 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov 2003-01-14 1:14 ` Georg Bauhaus 2003-01-14 2:20 ` John R. Strohm 2003-01-14 7:33 ` Karel Miklav 2003-01-14 8:49 ` tmoran 2003-01-14 9:03 ` Karel Miklav 2003-01-08 22:00 ` incomplete languages (was: Re: Anybody in US using ADA ? One silly idea..) Ted Dennison 2003-01-09 6:35 ` Karel Miklav
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