Re: why ada is so unpopular ?

[Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com>]

Preben Randhol wrote:
> 
> Well, who would be in charge of an Ada GUI and develop it actively and
> not every 10-15 years ?
> 
Who's in charge of Java's GUI? Do they update it only every 10 to 15 
years? Why is it that Java can do it but Ada can't? (Besides lack of 
will.) Here's the point: Java can find a way to react quickly to a 
changing world and provide developers with tools to help them do their 
jobs with greater speed. Ada can't because of lack of will to do so. Who 
wins? (Hint: the answer is Java. ;-)


> 
> Sure, but there are other things that the GUI to show that. My problem
> is that there are X GUIs and Y OSes out there already.
> 
How did Java manage to get a GUI that seems to be useful across a number 
of platforms? How did it succeed in something that looks so hopeless? 
Realistically, a GUI needs to support Windows and X-Windows (across a 
few different flavors of Unix) and it can cover 90% of the market. The 
rest? You say "Here is the GUI library in source - go make it work for 
yourself if you have to use something off-the-wall..."

Ada has this "Portability Fetish" that often cripples it. "If we can't 
make a feature work on everything from a PC to a digital toaster then it 
can't be part of the language!" We solve that with some kind of library 
external to the standard that exists in source and works on some stated 
number of platforms and where it doesn't work - don't try to use it. The 
problem, of course, is to get the vendors to actually think that Ada 
*needs* something like this and exhibit the will & leadership to get it.



> 
> Well if you look at the timespan for developing Gtk you'll see it isn't
> a trivial task. Making a binding is, however, much more trivial.
> 
I never said a GUI was a trivial task. What I said was that the C 
programmers are always going to get it *first* and its going to look the 
way *C programmers* want it to look. The Ada programmers will always get 
it later and will have to struggle with the usual C metaphors. As long 
as Ada depends on bindings for this sort of thing, Ada programmers are 
sucking hind tit. Developers ask themselves "Do I want to suck hind 
tit?" Generally the answer is "No!" and they go develop in C/C++ or 
Java. So long as Ada is in that ugly position, developers will stay away 
from it in droves. They'll go where they can get the most bang for the 
buck - and for the most part, that's not Ada.


> 
> Yes I agree. But I want a container library +++ first.
> 
I have absolutely no objection to a container library. However, we 
barely see any real will to get even *that* as a standard with the 
vendors lacking the leadership to get in front of the problem and say 
"Here's the answer that everyone should start to agree on..." I suppose 
if they want to lose the compiler-wars, that's up to them. 
Realistically, developers can look at Java and (to some extent) C++ and 
see that they are getting a whole lot more leverage by way of a library 
than they do with Ada.

Your average uncommitted developer is going to see all that leverage and 
ask "So why is it I should go with some obscure, niche programming 
language that offers me less in the way of tools and I have to struggle 
by being incompatible with the whole rest of the universe? What do I get 
for this? An unquantified cost savings in maintenance ten years down the 
line and a few less bugs? My software doesn't live that long and I can 
tolerate a few bugs and what I gain in development leverage will easily 
outweigh the cost of fixing the bugs if I really need to." Its basically 
a no-brainer that is consistently demonstrated over and over again by 
the fact that developers are using languages other than Ada.

The question is simple: "Do you want Ada to be around in ten years with 
a healthy, large user base?" If you'll settle for Ada being some niche 
language used in a few antique projects (like Jovial?) then it certainly 
can have that much strength. But if you want Ada to be a "Player" in the 
language market, then Ada had better start finding a way to offer *more* 
leverage to the developer than does its competitors.

MDC


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