* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
@ 1995-04-05 0:00 tmoran
1995-04-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: tmoran @ 1995-04-05 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
>In summary, as long as there is a fraction (i.e. not zero), then GNAT
>has done a good job.
The important question is not even 'does the GNAT experience
bring people to Ada', but 'how many people does GNAT bring to Ada
vs how many might have been attracted by a different way (eg
carefully researched and directed advertising, bindings, etc)'
of spending a similar amount of money. ie, bang for the buck.
We need not hundreds of folks converted to Ada, but tens of
thousands.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-05 0:00 Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?) tmoran
@ 1995-04-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Larry Kilgallen @ 1995-04-06 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <3lv3et$dcb@news1.delphi.com>, tmoran@bix.com writes:
> The important question is not even 'does the GNAT experience
> bring people to Ada', but 'how many people does GNAT bring to Ada
> vs how many might have been attracted by a different way (eg
> carefully researched and directed advertising, bindings, etc)'
> of spending a similar amount of money. ie, bang for the buck.
Effectiveness of advertising is considerably more difficult to measure
than just about anything pertaining to compilers. A reasonable approach
is to avoid putting all of one's eggs into one basket. The US government
has capabilities to do one thing with vigor -- throw money at a problem.
GNAT would seem to be an ideal candidate for that sort of approach (much
better than advertising, since you get something concrete out of it).
But the US (or any other) government has no capability for passion.
Those killer WEB pages, that idea for a better mechanism for SUN's
HTML interface, etc. are equally valid mechanisms, and thankfully do
not require government funding.
Likewise, articles in Embedded Systems Daily would be hopeless if they
required some government sign-off before being published.
Of course I don't think Ada has a chance unless it gets an advertising
budget equal to that which originally fielded the most rapidly growing
computer phenomenon - WWW :-).
Larry Kilgallen
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-05 0:00 Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?) tmoran
1995-04-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
@ 1995-04-07 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Laurent Gasser
[not found] ` <SRCTRAN.95Apr8101259@world.std.com>
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
2 siblings, 2 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Tucker Taft @ 1995-04-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
tmoran@bix.com wrote:
: >In summary, as long as there is a fraction (i.e. not zero), then GNAT
: >has done a good job.
: The important question is not even 'does the GNAT experience
: bring people to Ada', but 'how many people does GNAT bring to Ada
: vs how many might have been attracted by a different way (eg
: carefully researched and directed advertising, bindings, etc)'
: of spending a similar amount of money. ie, bang for the buck.
It would be silly to attract people to Ada 95 without providing them
a way to use it economically. Any amount of advertising, bindings, etc.,
relating to Ada 95 is pointless if there is no widely available
Ada 95 compiler.
: We need not hundreds of folks converted to Ada, but tens of
: thousands.
GNAT was just one part of the Ada 9X Project Office's efforts
to promote Ada 95. There are also advertisements in appropriate
magazines, a free 1-800 number, promotional videos, catalogs of
Ada resources, a multimedia training CD-ROM, user/implementor contracts,
etc. However, GNAT is still the critical component to all of these
efforts, because there is no point in getting people excited about
something without providing them some way to try it out.
-Tucker Taft stt@inmet.com
Intermetrics, Inc.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
@ 1995-04-07 0:00 ` Laurent Gasser
[not found] ` <SRCTRAN.95Apr8101259@world.std.com>
1 sibling, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Laurent Gasser @ 1995-04-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
This is the first time I learn about this promotion. I regularly
read this group though.
What kind of promotion is it if comp.lang.ada is not recalling some
nice informations like these from time to time. I always got the
feeling that C++ products vendors were almost intrusive (*) whereas
I had a hard time to learn about the adresses of companies selling Ada
products.
I don't even speak about some polite and respectful incentives to look
at the language Ada on other news groups...
(*) For the side story, I live in the French speaking part of
Switzerland. I registered at Symantech for their Think Pascal
compiler on Macintosh. I never heard of them for more than two years
when suddenly, I received an advertisement mail about C++ for Windows,
in German.
I don't speak German very well,
I hate Windows,
I don't like C++ very much.
Now, I am a MetroWerks' customer...
And also bought one copy of Meridian Ada 4.1.4 on Mac! (Thanks Mike
Feldman)
In article <D6o3tw.4Hv@inmet.camb.inmet.com>, stt@spock.camb.inmet.com (Tucker Taft) writes:
|> GNAT was just one part of the Ada 9X Project Office's efforts
|> to promote Ada 95. There are also advertisements in appropriate
|> magazines, a free 1-800 number, promotional videos, catalogs of
|> Ada resources, a multimedia training CD-ROM, user/implementor contracts,
|> etc. However, GNAT is still the critical component to all of these
|> efforts, because there is no point in getting people excited about
|> something without providing them some way to try it out.
|>
|> -Tucker Taft stt@inmet.com
|> Intermetrics, Inc.
--
Laurent Gasser (gasser@dma.epfl.ch)
Computers do not solve problems, they execute solutions.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <SRCTRAN.95Apr8101259@world.std.com>]
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-05 0:00 Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?) tmoran
1995-04-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
@ 1995-04-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
2 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Robert Dewar @ 1995-04-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
tmoran says:
"The important question is not even 'does the GNAT experience
bring people to Ada', but 'how many people does GNAT bring to Ada
vs how many might have been attracted by a different way (eg
carefully researched and directed advertising, bindings, etc)'
of spending a similar amount of money. ie, bang for the buck.
We need not hundreds of folks converted to Ada, but tens of
thousands."
True enough, and we will have to see how effective GNAT is in this respect.
Probably we are somewhere in between now.
Note however, that directed advertising, or bindings would not have any
effect whatsoever in the academic environment, where the lack of easily
downloadable free stuff has been a definite impediment in the past.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
@ 1995-04-21 0:00 CONDIC
1995-04-22 0:00 ` David Weller
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: CONDIC @ 1995-04-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
Original_To: PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc: CONDIC
David Weller <dweller@STARBASE.NEOSOFT.COM> writes:
>
>the last year (hmm, I guess I just did :-). Many of those people
>have picked up GNAT and were able to explore Ada without the
>slightest financial committment. And, yes, they knew they were
>getting what they were paying for :-) Also, GNAT has given me
>
David:
I personally think that GNAT may do a lot to help "bootstrap"
Ada95 usage, but I think it's important to point out that it isn't
real likely to cut into the commercial vendor's business - at
least with respect to major software development efforts for
critical products. It also isn't going to guarantee the long term
success of Ada95 - so it's no panacea.
Could you imagine persuading the Air Force to commit themselves to
flight-certifying software or risking expensive payloads on a
compiler that someone downloaded from the Internet and has no
"corporate" support behind it? (Maybe in "the olden days" but not
likely today!) Our customers *know* we need a vendor behind us as
part of "the team" who is going to provide bug fixes, tools,
customizations, etc.
And even for "non-critical" applications, I would think that most
intelligent developers would want a company behind their compiler
who would provide them with telephone support, a commitment to
continued growth of the product, related tools, etc. "Free" might
be nice when you're just playing games, but when your business
depends on long term commitments to the tools you use, "free" can
get pretty costly! (O.K.! Not all things worth doing are worth
doing well. I'm talking about software development that represents
a significant investment in time, money & expected lifespan.)
In other words - it's probably good that GNAT is out there as a
learning tool, but I can't see it as a substitute for a good
quality commercial product with lots of support software bundled
around it and an "800" number to call when the software doesn't
work as expected. Hence, it's probably not much of a threat to
commercial vendors and if they see it that way, then they aren't
looking at the value they should be adding to the product.
As for cost? I still believe that if Ada95 is going to get
anywhere, there needs to be a shrink-wrapped product at CompUSA
with manuals, bindings, support tools, etc for popular home
computers at somewhere between $200 and $400. (Best bet, is to get
the base product under $200 and don't wuss out on the support!) If
someone were to take GNAT and build such a product out of it,
you'd stand a good chance of making it successful.
The only sympathy I'll give to compiler vendors who charge five
figures or more for their tools is when you start looking at
target hardware that is extremely esoteric and have lots of
requirements for customizations to the product. If there are only
twelve "Gazorenthorpe Microprocessors" sold per year - but you
absolutely have to have them because of the specialized nature of
the product - *no* compiler is going to be cheap. (Maybe this is
where Ada suffers from it's military roots? How many ATF's are we
going to sell? How many "specialized" processors are in one of
these? How many compilers does that mean we're going to buy?)
(Oh. And before someone jumps up and says "You ought to be using
COTS processors on this sort of stuff" I'll answer with this
challenge: Show me a Mil packaged, rad hard, at-or-near 100%
testable, space-proven, COTS processor - complete with ICE-boxes,
logic analyzers, etc., that I can buy at Radio Shack for under
$50.00 and I'll buy you dinner at the restaurant of your choice
here in West Palm Beach.)
Pax,
Marin
Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer ATT: 407.796.8997
M/S 731-93 Technet: 796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP Internet: CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600 Internet: MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
===============================================================================
Please send responses to one of the addresses in this trailer.
A "reply" to the address in the message header will bounce.
===============================================================================
"The cost of living has just gone up another dollar a quart."
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===============================================================================
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-21 0:00 CONDIC
@ 1995-04-22 0:00 ` David Weller
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: David Weller @ 1995-04-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <INFO-ADA%95042115084536@VM1.NODAK.EDU>,
<CONDIC@PSAVAX.PWFL.COM> wrote:
>From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
>Subject: Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
>Original_To: PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
>Original_cc: CONDIC
>
>
>
>David Weller <dweller@STARBASE.NEOSOFT.COM> writes:
>>the last year (hmm, I guess I just did :-). Many of those people
>>have picked up GNAT and were able to explore Ada without the
>>slightest financial committment. And, yes, they knew they were
>>getting what they were paying for :-) Also, GNAT has given me
>>
> I personally think that GNAT may do a lot to help "bootstrap"
> Ada95 usage, but I think it's important to point out that it isn't
> real likely to cut into the commercial vendor's business - at
> least with respect to major software development efforts for
> critical products. It also isn't going to guarantee the long term
> success of Ada95 - so it's no panacea.
>
Correct. I could hardly claim it is. It's "just another Ada95
compiler". Yes, it raises the standard. Over the long run, will it
be the leader? I'd say no more than gcc is in the commercial market
(which is to say, they have a respectable slice, but nothing
overwhelmingly superior). We both agree completely that GNAT is NO
THREAT to commercial businesses. GNAT will, however, allow those
businesses to EXPAND their market (they're just not trying to
capitalize on that correctly, from what I'm seeing)
> Could you imagine persuading the Air Force to commit themselves to
> flight-certifying software or risking expensive payloads on a
> compiler that someone downloaded from the Internet and has no
> "corporate" support behind it? (Maybe in "the olden days" but not
> likely today!) Our customers *know* we need a vendor behind us as
> part of "the team" who is going to provide bug fixes, tools,
> customizations, etc.
>
Right, that's why companies like Cygnus, ACT, and Labtek exist -- to
bring the "industrial strength" to free compilers. However, as a
"decision maker" in my company, I have to look at MUCH more than just
cost to determine which compiler to choose. Certification (or
certifiability) and performance are other drivers (to name a couple).
> In other words - it's probably good that GNAT is out there as a
> learning tool, but I can't see it as a substitute for a good
> quality commercial product with lots of support software bundled
> around it and an "800" number to call when the software doesn't
> work as expected. Hence, it's probably not much of a threat to
> commercial vendors and if they see it that way, then they aren't
> looking at the value they should be adding to the product.
>
Yup. Although I hasten to add that I've found faster "support" for
gcc stuff through the gnu.* hierarchy than I've typically had from
some other vendors (MickeySoft comes to mind immediately).
> As for cost? I still believe that if Ada95 is going to get
> anywhere, there needs to be a shrink-wrapped product at CompUSA
> with manuals, bindings, support tools, etc for popular home
> computers at somewhere between $200 and $400. (Best bet, is to get
> the base product under $200 and don't wuss out on the support!) If
> someone were to take GNAT and build such a product out of it,
> you'd stand a good chance of making it successful.
>
Yes, and I hope that folks like Jim Dorman can do just that (despite
my grousing at Jim, I _do_ have hope that his (and all) Ada95 product
is a smashing success).
Pax right back to ya :-)
--
Frustrated with C, C++, Pascal, Fortran? Ada95 _might_ be for you!
For all sorts of interesting Ada95 tidbits, run the command:
"finger dweller@starbase.neosoft.com | more" (or e-mail with "finger" as subj.)
if u cn rd ths, u r gd enuf to chg to Ada :-)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
@ 1995-04-03 0:00 tmoran
1995-04-03 0:00 ` Sean McNeil
0 siblings, 1 reply; 18+ messages in thread
From: tmoran @ 1995-04-03 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
>Funding GNAT was an extremely cost-effective way to boost the number
>of Ada programmers.
And how much money was spent on market research to find what sort of
customers currently use Ada vs C, why, and what might cause them to
change (in either direction)?
>Without GNAT, there would have been no widely available compiler that
>implemented Ada 95 features for the past 18 months. AETech's
>compiler was Intel/DOS or Intel/POSIX only, and was not FTP-able by
>the new generation of Internet junkies.
What fraction of potential Ada customers (ie programmers) use
Intel/DOS or Windows 3.1 vs OS2, NT, Sun, SGI, etc?
For what fraction is a multi-meg FTP more convenient than diskettes?
What fraction have heard that Ada produces huge executables after
long compile times, and does Gnat remove those fears?
What fraction have heard that Ada is good for real time work - and
what do they think when Barne's suggested code style
delay 2*Hours+40*Minutes;
gives compilation errors at columns 9 and 18 for '*'?
When programmers try to get their feet wet with Ada by writing a
real program, which is more important: Ada 95 features; or
convenient OS interface and debugging tools?
Of the world's population of programmers, what fraction has tried
Gnat? What fraction potentially could try it? Of those who have
downloaded Gnat or bought the CDROM, what fraction has reported a
bug, asked a question, or otherwise indicated continuing use?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?)
1995-04-03 0:00 tmoran
@ 1995-04-03 0:00 ` Sean McNeil
0 siblings, 0 replies; 18+ messages in thread
From: Sean McNeil @ 1995-04-03 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
In article <3lphat$i0g@news1.delphi.com>, <tmoran@bix.com> wrote:
>>Funding GNAT was an extremely cost-effective way to boost the number
>>of Ada programmers.
>And how much money was spent on market research to find what sort of
>customers currently use Ada vs C, why, and what might cause them to
>change (in either direction)?
>
>>Without GNAT, there would have been no widely available compiler that
>>implemented Ada 95 features for the past 18 months. AETech's
>>compiler was Intel/DOS or Intel/POSIX only, and was not FTP-able by
>>the new generation of Internet junkies.
>
>[Basically alot about fractions.] ;)
I have been working at Hughes for a while and David Naiditch just started
an introduction class to Ada 95. I got up and told everyone about the
GNAT compiler and brought floppies with the OS/2 and DOS versions to the
class. There was alot of interest in GNAT even after I pointed out it's
deficiencies. Some people were just glad to have a syntax and semantic
checker. I personally have not used GNAT that much, but that will change
as soon as I have a reason to use it. I think that if all work on GNAT
was to stop now, it would have still been worth the effort. I can't
imagine how many people will be exposed to Ada 95 by using GNAT.
In summary, as long as there is a fraction (i.e. not zero), then GNAT
has done a good job.
Sean McNeil
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 18+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1995-04-22 0:00 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 18+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
1995-04-05 0:00 Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?) tmoran
1995-04-06 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Tucker Taft
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Laurent Gasser
[not found] ` <SRCTRAN.95Apr8101259@world.std.com>
[not found] ` <3mjccv$gts@news.znet.com>
1995-04-19 0:00 ` Tore Joergensen
1995-04-19 0:00 ` David Weller
[not found] ` <3mjcci$gcg@news.znet.com>
1995-04-19 0:00 ` Rajat Datta
1995-04-19 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1995-04-20 0:00 ` Rajat Datta
1995-04-20 0:00 ` Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aet Brian Hanson
1995-04-21 0:00 ` Ada saved by gnat (was Re: Where's Aetech?) Dale Pontius
1995-04-21 0:00 ` cjames
1995-04-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
1995-04-07 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1995-04-21 0:00 CONDIC
1995-04-22 0:00 ` David Weller
1995-04-03 0:00 tmoran
1995-04-03 0:00 ` Sean McNeil
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