Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[Colin James III]

The Chicago job(s) are trivial because they pay so little (about $30K a 
year in that area is what C programmers get right out of college who had 
C++ grade point averages).  As I recall, the hightest pay for the 
semi-manager Ada programmer there was about $40K.  If Ada jobs in Chicago 
were so hot, then the jobs would be filled without advertising in Chicago 
or any other major city (which is not the case).  In other words, the 
Paul Morris Bucket Shop Agency in New Jersey would have filled the jobs 
long ago and been the first to take the commission.  When I was contacted 
the sub-contractor doing initial screening did not have accurate or 
detailed job descriptions, did not know the exact term of the assignment, 
and did not know if the "company" would pay for moving from another city.

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[Hartsough Michael J.]

Hi there!

I'm a Software Developer at Northrop-Grumman's Electronics Warfare Systems
Division in Rolling Meadows, Illinois.

Colin's message was so full of misinformation that I couldn't restrain myself
from responding.  ;^)

There currently are about 50 "open reqs." for permanent positions in our
software development organization. We have needs for all skill levels, from
entry-level up to Project Engineer/Technical Advisor/Unit Manager.

>As I recall, the hightest pay for the semi-manager Ada programmer there was
>about $40K.

My job title is "Engineer Specialist". That's (I believe) one level above Sr.
Programmer and two levels below Unit Manager 1. So I'm not even a quasi-semi-
manager. My salary is at the low end of the scale for my position, and I make
considerably more than 40K (like ~50% more).

Oh, there's no distinction made between "Ada programmers" and any other
programmers. I'm not an "Ada Engineer Specialist", even though I've been
using the language exclusively for the last 8 years.


>If Ada jobs in Chicago were so hot, then the jobs would be filled without
>advertising in Chicago or any other major city (which is not the case).

Sr. Management is extremely particular about to whom it makes offers. They much
prefer being under staffed than poorly staffed. Although an individual may be a
perfect fit for "right now", an offer won't be extended unless that individual
is also a perfect fit for "later".

By way of example, over the last 2 years we've interviewed several people whose
skills I desperately needed for a subsystem I'm developing. Although they were
superb talents who would have made my last 2 years infinitely less difficult
than they've been, we did not extend offers to them because their skills
weren't a good match for what this site traditionally does, or plans to be
doing in the future.


>When I was contacted the sub-contractor doing initial screening did not have
>accurate or detailed job descriptions, did not know the exact term of the
>assignment, and did not know if the "company" would pay for moving from
>another city.

I'd say you need to talk to a different shop.  ;^)

If you come in as contract labor, I seriously doubt that the company would pay
for you to relocate. If you come in as a permanent employee, the company's
relocation benefits are quite comprehensive.

I started here ~2-1/2 years ago. I was living in L.A. at the time. I was given
about 6 flights back to L.A. for my family and me, counting the actual move and
closing on the L.A. house.

All of my moving expenses were covered, including storing everything in a
warehouse for 3 months while we waited for escrow to close on our new house.

Northrop put me up in a nice furnished apartment, rent free for 6 months
(I was granted a 3 month extension to the original 90 days because we were
having trouble selling our L.A. home). A couple of the "new grads" have told
me that they were also provided a furnished apartment, so I guess this
relocation benefit goes all the way down to "entry level".

I forget the details now, but Northrop also paid my closing costs on both
houses, including Lawyer fees, "Points" on the new mortgage, and I believe
the realtor's commission on the sale of my L.A. home.

	Michael

p.s. Ordinarily I think these disclaimers are silly, but in this case I'll make
an exception. The opinions expressed above are solely my own and are not
necessarily those of the Northrop-Grumman corporation.

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[henry jakala]

Hartsough Michael J. (hartsoug@bonham.dsd.northrop.com) wrote:
: Hi there!

: I'm a Software Developer at Northrop-Grumman's Electronics Warfare Systems
: Division in Rolling Meadows, Illinois.

 
     i quit in August and they go and change their name, hope it wasn't 
     anything i did, last time i checked the division was still called
     "Electronics Systems Division" (ESD)


: Colin's message was so full of misinformation that I couldn't restrain myself
: from responding.  ;^)

: There currently are about 50 "open reqs." for permanent positions in our
: software development organization. We have needs for all skill levels, from
: entry-level up to Project Engineer/Technical Advisor/Unit Manager.


    50 open reqs ?  for Digital Systems ?
    where are they going to put them ?


: >As I recall, the hightest pay for the semi-manager Ada programmer there was
: >about $40K.

: My job title is "Engineer Specialist". That's (I believe) one level above Sr.
: Programmer and two levels below Unit Manager 1. So I'm not even a quasi-semi-
: manager. My salary is at the low end of the scale for my position, and I make
: considerably more than 40K (like ~50% more).


    i was an Engineering Specialist Sr, contract engineering is much
    more lucrative <vbg> and offers more variety as well as allowing
    you to pick and choose your own assignments.


: Oh, there's no distinction made between "Ada programmers" and any other
: programmers. I'm not an "Ada Engineer Specialist", even though I've been
: using the language exclusively for the last 8 years.


: >If Ada jobs in Chicago were so hot, then the jobs would be filled without
: >advertising in Chicago or any other major city (which is not the case).

: Sr. Management is extremely particular about to whom it makes offers. They much
: prefer being under staffed than poorly staffed. Although an individual may be a
: perfect fit for "right now", an offer won't be extended unless that individual
: is also a perfect fit for "later".

   
      and only if you know the right answer to the "mystery" question

      ( an inside joke )


: By way of example, over the last 2 years we've interviewed several people whose
: skills I desperately needed for a subsystem I'm developing. Although they were
: superb talents who would have made my last 2 years infinitely less difficult
: than they've been, we did not extend offers to them because their skills
: weren't a good match for what this site traditionally does, or plans to be
: doing in the future.


       i never heard about it, oh well


: >When I was contacted the sub-contractor doing initial screening did not have
: >accurate or detailed job descriptions, did not know the exact term of the
: >assignment, and did not know if the "company" would pay for moving from
: >another city.

: I'd say you need to talk to a different shop.  ;^)

: If you come in as contract labor, I seriously doubt that the company would pay
: for you to relocate. If you come in as a permanent employee, the company's
: relocation benefits are quite comprehensive.

: I started here ~2-1/2 years ago. I was living in L.A. at the time. I was given
: about 6 flights back to L.A. for my family and me, counting the actual move and
: closing on the L.A. house.

: All of my moving expenses were covered, including storing everything in a
: warehouse for 3 months while we waited for escrow to close on our new house.

: Northrop put me up in a nice furnished apartment, rent free for 6 months
: (I was granted a 3 month extension to the original 90 days because we were
: having trouble selling our L.A. home). A couple of the "new grads" have told
: me that they were also provided a furnished apartment, so I guess this
: relocation benefit goes all the way down to "entry level".

: I forget the details now, but Northrop also paid my closing costs on both
: houses, including Lawyer fees, "Points" on the new mortgage, and I believe
: the realtor's commission on the sale of my L.A. home.

: 	Michael

: p.s. Ordinarily I think these disclaimers are silly, but in this case I'll make
: an exception. The opinions expressed above are solely my own and are not
: necessarily those of the Northrop-Grumman corporation.
-- 
                                                    jakala@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
             if you like a Liberal's version of Liberty
                          then you'll love 
Totalitarian Communist States and their People's Democratic Republics

all hail
   our Philanderer in Chief and Hillary Rob'em Cheat'em,
                                   but not for much longer !!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[henry jakala]

Hartsough Michael J. (hartsoug@bonham.dsd.northrop.com) wrote:
: Hi there!

: I'm a Software Developer at Northrop-Grumman's Electronics Warfare Systems
: Division in Rolling Meadows, Illinois.

: Colin's message was so full of misinformation that I couldn't restrain myself
: from responding.  ;^)

: There currently are about 50 "open reqs." for permanent positions in our
: software development organization. We have needs for all skill levels, from
: entry-level up to Project Engineer/Technical Advisor/Unit Manager.

: >As I recall, the hightest pay for the semi-manager Ada programmer there was
: >about $40K.

: My job title is "Engineer Specialist". That's (I believe) one level above Sr.
: Programmer and two levels below Unit Manager 1. So I'm not even a quasi-semi-
: manager. My salary is at the low end of the scale for my position, and I make
: considerably more than 40K (like ~50% more).

: Oh, there's no distinction made between "Ada programmers" and any other
: programmers. I'm not an "Ada Engineer Specialist", even though I've been
: using the language exclusively for the last 8 years.


: >If Ada jobs in Chicago were so hot, then the jobs would be filled without
: >advertising in Chicago or any other major city (which is not the case).

: Sr. Management is extremely particular about to whom it makes offers. They much
: prefer being under staffed than poorly staffed. Although an individual may be a
: perfect fit for "right now", an offer won't be extended unless that individual
: is also a perfect fit for "later".

: By way of example, over the last 2 years we've interviewed several people whose
: skills I desperately needed for a subsystem I'm developing. Although they were
: superb talents who would have made my last 2 years infinitely less difficult
: than they've been, we did not extend offers to them because their skills
: weren't a good match for what this site traditionally does, or plans to be
: doing in the future.


: >When I was contacted the sub-contractor doing initial screening did not have
: >accurate or detailed job descriptions, did not know the exact term of the
: >assignment, and did not know if the "company" would pay for moving from
: >another city.

: I'd say you need to talk to a different shop.  ;^)

: If you come in as contract labor, I seriously doubt that the company would pay
: for you to relocate. If you come in as a permanent employee, the company's
: relocation benefits are quite comprehensive.

: I started here ~2-1/2 years ago. I was living in L.A. at the time. I was given
: about 6 flights back to L.A. for my family and me, counting the actual move and
: closing on the L.A. house.


    ps - i gave the place a bit more than 12 yrs of my life


         miss the people, but not northrop


         a big hello to: (in alphabetical order)

             brian t
             chuck f
             dennis v
             geoff n
             james w
             jay b
             jeanette k  (i knew you'd come back <g>)
             john h
             john p
             lynda k
             mike c
             mike n
             nora l
             patricia h
             paul m
             steve k
             tony c


: All of my moving expenses were covered, including storing everything in a
: warehouse for 3 months while we waited for escrow to close on our new house.

: Northrop put me up in a nice furnished apartment, rent free for 6 months
: (I was granted a 3 month extension to the original 90 days because we were
: having trouble selling our L.A. home). A couple of the "new grads" have told
: me that they were also provided a furnished apartment, so I guess this
: relocation benefit goes all the way down to "entry level".

: I forget the details now, but Northrop also paid my closing costs on both
: houses, including Lawyer fees, "Points" on the new mortgage, and I believe
: the realtor's commission on the sale of my L.A. home.

: 	Michael

: p.s. Ordinarily I think these disclaimers are silly, but in this case I'll make
: an exception. The opinions expressed above are solely my own and are not
: necessarily those of the Northrop-Grumman corporation.
-- 
                                                    jakala@netcom.com
---------------------------------------------------------------------
             if you like a Liberal's version of Liberty
                          then you'll love 
Totalitarian Communist States and their People's Democratic Republics

all hail
   our Philanderer in Chief and Hillary Rob'em Cheat'em,
                                   but not for much longer !!!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[U54294]

In article <3fh1ve$gmj@esdmaster.dsd.northrop.com>, hartsoug@bonham.dsd.northrop.com (Hartsough Michael J.) says:
>I'm a Software Developer at Northrop-Grumman's Electronics Warfare Systems
>Division in Rolling Meadows, Illinois.
>
>Colin's message was so full of misinformation that I couldn't restrain myself
>from responding.  ;^)
>
>My job title is "Engineer Specialist". That's (I believe) one level above Sr.
>Programmer and two levels below Unit Manager 1. So I'm not even a quasi-semi-
>manager. My salary is at the low end of the scale for my position, and I make
>considerably more than 40K (like ~50% more).
>
>I started here ~2-1/2 years ago. I was living in L.A. at the time. I was given
>about 6 flights back to L.A. for my family and me, counting the actual move
>and
>closing on the L.A. house.
>
>All of my moving expenses were covered, including storing everything in a
>warehouse for 3 months while we waited for escrow to close on our new house.
>
>Northrop put me up in a nice furnished apartment, rent free for 6 months
>(I was granted a 3 month extension to the original 90 days because we were
>having trouble selling our L.A. home). A couple of the "new grads" have told
>me that they were also provided a furnished apartment, so I guess this
>relocation benefit goes all the way down to "entry level".
>
>I forget the details now, but Northrop also paid my closing costs on both
>houses, including Lawyer fees, "Points" on the new mortgage, and I believe
>the realtor's commission on the sale of my L.A. home.
>
>        Michael
>
>p.s. Ordinarily I think these disclaimers are silly, but in this case I'll
>make
>an exception. The opinions expressed above are solely my own and are not
>necessarily those of the Northrop-Grumman corporation.

Since I was the original poster for the "Some  Ada jobs in Chicago"
note, I think I'll reply to this. My reply:
Remarkable!
Something tells me that the costs incurred above were passed along to the
customer, the American taxpayer. No wonder the American military's
degree of readiness is slipping while DoD consumes $265 billion per year.
And this while defense electronics is downsizing and retooling ;) and thousands
of other private-sector programmers and engineers are losing their jobs.
I wonder what things were like in 1979-1987, during which time the DoD
budget doubled in size?
+------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| "I would have preferred that | Nick Geovanis     U54294@uicvm.uic.edu |
|    you smell of garlic."     | Consultant                             |
|       Emperor Vespasian,     | Technical Support Group, Inc.          |
|          demoting a perfumed | 360 N. Michigan Ave, Suite 1005        |
|          officer, c. 70 AD.  | Chicago, IL.  60601  Tel: 312-704-5100 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[David Weller]

In article <95020.121917U54294@uicvm.uic.edu>,  <U54294@uicvm.uic.edu> wrote:
>[Relocation package details deleted]
>
>Since I was the original poster for the "Some  Ada jobs in Chicago"
>note, I think I'll reply to this. My reply:
>Remarkable!
>Something tells me that the costs incurred above were passed along to the
>customer, the American taxpayer. No wonder the American military's
>degree of readiness is slipping while DoD consumes $265 billion per year.
>And this while defense electronics is downsizing and retooling ;) and thousands
>of other private-sector programmers and engineers are losing their jobs.
>I wonder what things were like in 1979-1987, during which time the DoD
>budget doubled in size?

Odd, what he described is a pretty standard relocation package for
engineers even in commercial companies.  Those companies recover
their money by passing it on to the consumer.  A tax, if you will.

Your criticism is a little misguided.  


-- 
       Frustrated with C/C++, Pascal, Fortran?  Ada95 _might_ be for you!
	  For all sorts of interesting Ada95 tidbits, run the command:
"finger dweller@starbase.neosoft.com | more" (or e-mail with "finger" as subj.)
	

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[David M. Tannen]

Nick,
>Since I was the original poster for the "Some  Ada jobs in Chicago"
>note, I think I'll reply to this. My reply:
>Remarkable!
>Something tells me that the costs incurred above were passed along to the
>customer, the American taxpayer. No wonder the American military's
>degree of readiness is slipping while DoD consumes $265 billion per year.
Bzzz.  US military readiness can be directly related to budget spent on
training and literally bullets spent on the range.  That is something I
learned from AF and Army Cols at my first job.  The US
Congress/Taxpayers/Adminstration likes to spend DoD $ on big ticket
things (B-2, Nuclear Aircraft carrier task groups, etc) because they
bring in jobs.  No one is interested in training and bullets.

And before someone like Nick blasts me, most of my career has been spent
designing training systems (or systems that enhance an existing system).

>And this while defense electronics is downsizing and retooling ;) and
>thousands of other private-sector programmers and engineers are losing
>their jobs. 
HUH?  Good software engineers are not lossing their jobs.  You might
have to move.  You might have to change your career path (ie embedded ->
application -> embedded).  You might even have to give up your favorite
language bias (Ada -> C -> Smalltalk -> Ada).  But I seriously doubt
that thousands of private sector programmers are lossing their jobs.

I say this after having moved 3 times in the last 6.5 years.  Every time
I have had nice (sometimes amazing) moving benefits, salary increases
and sometimes nice title changes.  I attribute this to a couple of
factors, the first being God's amazing grace.  The second being our
(myself and my wife) being willing to move to strange and unknown parts
of the US. 


So Nick either you haven't been working in the field for very long or
you have been very isolated for a long long time.  Try reading Dilbert
and if your life is like his its time to start looking for a new job and
in a new state - it can improve your viewpoint.


-- 
David Tannen (tannend@source.asset.com)                 TeamAda Member
Christian Acronyms: B.I.B.L.E.=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
                    G.R.A.C.E.=God's Redemption At Christ's Expense
                    F.A.I.T.H.=Forsaking all, I trust Him

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[U54294]

In article <3g3oh1$1fta@source.asset.com>, tannend@source.asset.com (David M. Tannen) says:
>
>Nick,
>>Since I was the original poster for the "Some  Ada jobs in Chicago"
>>note, I think I'll reply to this. My reply:
>>Remarkable!
>>Something tells me that the costs incurred above were passed along to the
>>customer, the American taxpayer. No wonder the American military's
>>degree of readiness is slipping while DoD consumes $265 billion per year.
>Bzzz.  US military readiness can be directly related to budget spent on
>training and literally bullets spent on the range.  That is something I
>learned from AF and Army Cols at my first job.  The US
>Congress/Taxpayers/Adminstration likes to spend DoD $ on big ticket
>things (B-2, Nuclear Aircraft carrier task groups, etc) because they
>bring in jobs.  No one is interested in training and bullets.
>
   You're exactly right. But I haven't heard any military brass turning
down the money for big-ticket items either, and demanding a change in
priorities.

>And before someone like Nick blasts me, most of my career has been spent
>designing training systems (or systems that enhance an existing system).
>
>>And this while defense electronics is downsizing and retooling ;) and
>>thousands of other private-sector programmers and engineers are losing
>>their jobs.
>HUH?  Good software engineers are not lossing their jobs.  You might
>have to move.  You might have to change your career path (ie embedded ->
>application -> embedded).  You might even have to give up your favorite
>language bias (Ada -> C -> Smalltalk -> Ada).  But I seriously doubt
>that thousands of private sector programmers are lossing their jobs.
>
   I've changed my career at least four times in the last six years, and
the changes have been much broader and deeper than just learning a new
programming language. It's the consultant's job to do that. I say that
many thousands are losing their jobs because it's my job to put them out
of work, it's what I do on a daily basis. Whether you consider them to be
"good software engineers" or not is irrelevent. They are human beings and
American citizens, and their country is cutting many of them off.

>I say this after having moved 3 times in the last 6.5 years.  Every time
>I have had nice (sometimes amazing) moving benefits, salary increases
>and sometimes nice title changes.  I attribute this to a couple of
>factors, the first being God's amazing grace.  The second being our
>(myself and my wife) being willing to move to strange and unknown parts
>of the US.
>
   Moving benefits are often paid. I find the ones you mentioned to be
rather beyond the norm, but maybe you're worth it.  But it's outrageous
that benefits on this scale are (perhaps) the norm in military software,
when basic training suffers (as you agree it does), reserve and guard units
are dissolved, and Gulf War vets can't get VA health care for their
service-related problems. Not to mention the Americans sleeping under bridges
and in national forests, many of whom are also veterans.

>
>So Nick either you haven't been working in the field for very long or
>you have been very isolated for a long long time.  Try reading Dilbert
>and if your life is like his its time to start looking for a new job and
>in a new state - it can improve your viewpoint.
>
   I've been working in software for twelve years, on many different
platforms and environments.
   Here are a couple Christian sayings you seem to have forgotten:
      It is easier to pass a camel through the eye of a needle, than for
         a rich man to enter heaven (fron the Sermon on the Mount).
      Blessed are the peacemakers.
>
>--
>David Tannen (tannend@source.asset.com)                 TeamAda Member
>Christian Acronyms: B.I.B.L.E.=Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth
>                    G.R.A.C.E.=God's Redemption At Christ's Expense
>                    F.A.I.T.H.=Forsaking all, I trust Him
+------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| "I would have preferred that | Nick Geovanis     U54294@uicvm.uic.edu |
|    you smell of garlic."     | Consultant                             |
|       Emperor Vespasian,     | Technical Support Group, Inc.          |
|          demoting a perfumed | 360 N. Michigan Ave, Suite 1005        |
|          officer, c. 70 AD.  | Chicago, IL.  60601  Tel: 312-704-5100 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[David Emery]

>   You're exactly right. But I haven't heard any military brass turning
>down the money for big-ticket items either, and demanding a change in
>priorities.

Then you haven't been listening.  Mr. Perry directed a priority
movement of funding from other parts of the DoD budget into personnel
support, e.g. housing, repair and utilities, etc.  He expressed a
willingness to accept decreased readiness levels to raise the standard
of living for the troops.  In particular, he directly stated that he
was willing to cancel some acquisition programs to provide this
funding, if necessary.  

It's one of the best things I've heard in my association with the
military, and I agree with it, even if he cancels 'my program'.

				dave
p.s.  to quote from Mike Feldman's .signature:
  "Pork is what the government gives the OTHER guy."
--
--The preceeding opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
--The MITRE Corporation or its sponsors. 
-- "A good plan violently executed -NOW- is better than a perfect plan
--  next week"                                      George Patton
-- "Any damn fool can write a plan.  It's the execution that gets you
--  all screwed up"                              James Hollingsworth
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: "Some" Ada jobs in the Chicago area

[U54294]

In article <EMERY.95Jan26162140@goldfinger.mitre.org>, emery@goldfinger.mitre.org (David Emery) says:
>
>>   You're exactly right. But I haven't heard any military brass turning
>>down the money for big-ticket items either, and demanding a change in
>>priorities.
>
>Then you haven't been listening.  Mr. Perry directed a priority
>movement of funding from other parts of the DoD budget into personnel
>support, e.g. housing, repair and utilities, etc.  He expressed a
>willingness to accept decreased readiness levels to raise the standard
>of living for the troops.  In particular, he directly stated that he
>was willing to cancel some acquisition programs to provide this
>funding, if necessary.
>
   Excellent. Let's see: 20 military and civilian deaths in the Osprey
program so far, did he propose canning it? Then there's the B-2, the
strategic bomber in search of a strategy (and enemy). Not to mention the
few-million still going into SDI each year.
   I see I'm getting way off subject here. So were you. The original note
spoke to the subject of quite generous relocation allowance mentioned
by a Northrop employee, this in a time of Defence "downsizing", which isn't
really occurring. Oh, many people are being laid-off, certainly. But the
DoD budget has fallen 8% since 1987, not counting special appropriations
for things like Haiti, Somalia, Gulf War, etc. (and not counting the DoE).
And it appears that DoD's budget will be rising again soon, thanks to the
new congress. I was simply expressing my frustration as a taxpayer having
to pay for all this, without much to show in return.
   This is way off the subject of Ada, and is no reflection on that
excellent programming language. I apologize for straying so far from it.
Any and all are welcome to continue this discussion "out-of-band."
+------------------------------+----------------------------------------+
| "I would have preferred that | Nick Geovanis     U54294@uicvm.uic.edu |
|    you smell of garlic."     | Consultant                             |
|       Emperor Vespasian,     | Technical Support Group, Inc.          |
|          demoting a perfumed | 360 N. Michigan Ave, Suite 1005        |
|          officer, c. 70 AD.  | Chicago, IL.  60601  Tel: 312-704-5100 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------+