Digital and Ada ?

Digital and Ada ?

[Scott Leschke]

I heard a well placed Digital marketing guy say recently that DEC was
abandoning the Ada biz.

Anybody have insights on this ?

Scott Leschke
Motorola Inc.
-- 
Scott Leschke

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Bevin R. Brett]

In article <leschkes.786991439@ferret>, leschkes@ferret.cig.mot.com (Scott Leschke) writes...
>I heard a well placed Digital marketing guy say recently that DEC was
>abandoning the Ada biz.

This rumour is founded on an incorrect extrapolation of what we are doing.

Digital and Rational have announced that they are partnering for Ada'95, with
Rational making the Alpha OSF/1 platform their premier platform.

The Digital Ada 83 product is still being maintained and is selling very
well, besides which we have major commitments to customers w.r.t. this
product.

We are looking at the business case for putting Ada'95 on VMS, and at the best
ways of satisfying the customer needs here.

For more detailed information, you should contact the product manager,
axel@sdtpmm.dec.com.

/Bevin

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Tucker Taft]

In article <leschkes.786991439@ferret>,
Scott Leschke <leschkes@ferret.cig.mot.com> wrote:

>I heard a well placed Digital marketing guy say recently that DEC was
>abandoning the Ada biz.
>
>Anybody have insights on this ?

DEC has chosen to halt development of their own Ada 9X compiler (at least
for now).  They will continue to support their Ada 83 compilers
as long as there is a market for them.  They have an agreement
with Rational to provide Apex on Alpha (OSF/1 and Windows/NT),
and Rational in turn has agreed to make the Alpha the "first-line"
host for Apex, meaning that new releases of Apex will appear
on the Alpha first, or at least no later than on any other platform.

This information is mostly from public announcements at Tri-Ada '94 and
elsewhere.  It is no secret...

>Scott Leschke
>Motorola Inc.
>-- 
>Scott Leschke

-Tucker Taft
Intermetrics, Inc.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Garlington KE]

Tucker Taft (stt@dsd.camb.inmet.com) wrote:

: as long as there is a market for them.  They have an agreement
: with Rational to provide Apex on Alpha (OSF/1 and Windows/NT),
: and Rational in turn has agreed to make the Alpha the "first-line"
: host for Apex, meaning that new releases of Apex will appear
: on the Alpha first, or at least no later than on any other platform.

Unfortunately, if you've developed a lot of Ada code on VAX/VMS. you get
no help from either DEC, Rational or GNAT if you want to use Ada 95. Yet
another nail in the VAX coffin (but that's a different thread ;).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Garlington                  GarlingtonKE@lfwc.lockheed.com
F-22 Computer Resources         Lockheed Fort Worth Co.

If LFWC or the F-22 program has any opinions, they aren't telling me.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Bevin R. Brett]

In article <3cho5r$k4f@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com>, l107353@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com (Garlington KE) writes...

>Unfortunately, if you've developed a lot of Ada code on VAX/VMS. you get
>no help from either DEC, Rational or GNAT if you want to use Ada 95. Yet
>another nail in the VAX coffin (but that's a different thread ;).
>--------------------------------------------------------------------
>Ken Garlington                  GarlingtonKE@lfwc.lockheed.com
>F-22 Computer Resources         Lockheed Fort Worth Co.

If you have developed a lot of code in Ada for VAX/VMS, then you can continue
to compile it with the same compiler that you have for the last 10 years, and
which is still being maintained.

If you want to reuse that code in an Ada'95 environment on a VMS system,
then it probably is not a VAX system, but an Alpha one.  As I said in my
earlier post, we are still investigating the business case for Ada'95 on
VMS to try to determine the best thing to do.

If you want to reuse it on a Ada'95 Alpha OSF system, then how to best support
you in doing that is still being studied, both here and at Rational.

/Bevin

Where can I get an Ada 9x LRM?

[Kevin Simonson]

     I have been informed that the powers-that-be have decided that the
'x' in Ada 9x will be a '4', and I have seen Boeing training instructors
with their own personal copies of an Ada 94 LRM.  Is there someplace where
I can get a copy of such an LRM for myself?  They got theirs free from an
Ada conference, so I can't get one the same way they did.  Any information
would be appreciated.

     If this is a FAQ, sorry.  I just resubscribed to this newsgroup, af-
ter being away from it for a while.

                                     ---Kevin Simonson

Re: Where can I get an Ada 9x LRM?

[Gentle]

On Wed, 14 Dec 1994 01:06:45 GMT, Kevin Simonson (simonson@cs.washington.edu) wrote:
:      I have been informed that the powers-that-be have decided that the
: 'x' in Ada 9x will be a '4', and I have seen Boeing training instructors

 No.  The 'x' will be a '5'.

--
=========================================================================
gentle@cnj.digex.net

Software Engineer (extraordinaire!)
Level: International Hacker
Edison, NJ

"If you can count your money, you don't have a billion dollars."
		-- J. Paul Getty
=========================================================================

Re: Where can I get an Ada 9x LRM?

[David Emery]

That's correct.  Ada 9X was approved by ISO in 1994, but the date of
the standard is not the approval date, but rather the publication date
by the ISO Central Secretariat.  This is expected in early 1995, so
it's Ada 95.

				dave
--
--The preceeding opinions do not necessarily reflect the opinions of
--The MITRE Corporation or its sponsors. 
-- "A good plan violently executed -NOW- is better than a perfect plan
--  next week"                                      George Patton
-- "Any damn fool can write a plan.  It's the execution that gets you
--  all screwed up"                              James Hollingsworth
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Where can I get an Ada 9x LRM?

[Brian Connors]

In article <D0s0Fw.8I5@beaver.cs.washington.edu>,
simonson@cs.washington.edu (Kevin Simonson) wrote:

>      I have been informed that the powers-that-be have decided that the
> 'x' in Ada 9x will be a '4', and I have seen Boeing training instructors
> with their own personal copies of an Ada 94 LRM.  Is there someplace where
> I can get a copy of such an LRM for myself?  They got theirs free from an
> Ada conference, so I can't get one the same way they did.  Any information
> would be appreciated.

Somebody friggin' answer the question...

Yes it will be Ada '95.  It's not anywhere on the cover of my LRM, but it
will be Ada95.

As to where to find it, I don't know that the final one will be available
for FTP (ISO copyrights and all), but the v5.95 final draft is, and here's
the URL:
   
  
ftp://ajpo.sei.cmu.edu/public/ada9x/mrtcomments/rm9x/v5.95.compressed/rm.doc.Z

This is dated 25 November 1994 and is freely distributable.  I have a copy
in front of me, printed out in 7pt Courier and spiral-bound by the local
all-night copy center.  Printed out in that font on BBEdit Lite on a
Macintosh, it comes out to about 450 pages.  I chose green and gray for
the covers, FWIW...nice and military:-).

The AARM is also available there but it would probably do a fairly
comprehensive job of causing any but an industrial-grade paper-snarfin'
toner-spewin' workgroup-servin' final-copy-makin' high end laser printer
to fall over after about page 556. I haven't even tried to download it.

I'm just noticing this now--there's an Ada95 yacc grammar there too. 
Might be useful...

Brian Connors
Boston College

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Garlington KE]

Bevin R. Brett (brett@ada9x.enet.dec.com) wrote:

: If you have developed a lot of code in Ada for VAX/VMS, then you can continue
: to compile it with the same compiler that you have for the last 10 years, and
: which is still being maintained.

As long as you want to use a subset of Ada (95) for any maintenance or new
development. As was noted in my original post, if you want to use Ada 95 on
VAX/VMS, SOL.

: If you want to reuse that code in an Ada'95 environment on a VMS system,
: then it probably is not a VAX system, but an Alpha one.  As I said in my
: earlier post, we are still investigating the business case for Ada'95 on
: VMS to try to determine the best thing to do.

We have an Ada 95 compiler on our VAX/VMS system today. Unfortunately, it's
targeted to the MIL-STD-1750. Many of our cross-compiler users like to compile
their code using a self-targeted compiler first, and then use the cross-
compiler later. Unfortunately, with the abandonment of the VAX, they now have
a quandry: If they use Ada 95 features supported on their cross-compiler, they
can no longer use the obsolete VAX/VMS compiler. If they don't, they are losing all
the benefits of Ada 95. Many of them are choosing to stick to Ada 87 until
a VAX/VMS toolset becomes available. But, hey, why worry about whether or not
F-22 uses Ada 95? It's not a highly visible program in DoD, or anything like
that...

As for Alphas, we're looking at when we'll junk our huge investment in VAXen
and go to the next big thing. Given the funding for F-22, it should happen in,
say, five years at the earliest. Of course, some people are getting tired of
DEC and want to go to something other than Alpha, so who knows? The point is,
there are a lot of people that will be using VAX/VMS as a development platform
for some time, despite DEC marketing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Garlington                  GarlingtonKE@lfwc.lockheed.com
F-22 Computer Resources         Lockheed Fort Worth Co.

If LFWC or the F-22 program has any opinions, they aren't telling me.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Richard Kenner]

In article <3cho5r$k4f@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com> l107353@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com (Garlington KE) writes:
>Unfortunately, if you've developed a lot of Ada code on VAX/VMS. you get
>no help from either DEC, Rational or GNAT if you want to use Ada 95. Yet
>another nail in the VAX coffin (but that's a different thread ;).

Actually, GNAT should run just fine under VAX/VMS, since there's a
well-maintained GCC on VAX/VMS.

It's Alpha/VMS where there is currently no Ada 95 solution, nor a
definite plan to make one.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Bevin R. Brett]

In article <3ck4qk$fn2@cmcl2.NYU.EDU>, kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu (Richard Kenner) writes...

>Actually, GNAT should run just fine under VAX/VMS, since there's a
>well-maintained GCC on VAX/VMS.

Yes, but it almost certainly won't compile the DEC Ada pragmas that do all the
interesting work around being a VMS compiler (pass-by-descriptor for example)
nor will it necessarily be capable of compiling the same range of
representation clauses, nor ...

It will require quite a lot of work for GNAT to become a DEC Ada substitute.

/Bevin

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Robert Dewar]

In addition, just because there is a GCC for a machine does not mean there
is a GNAT automatically. Paritcularly in the case of VMS, with its unusual
structure of directory names, there is some special tailoring of the GNAT
system interface code. Also tasking does not pop out free. Bevin is quite
right, making a version of GNAT that is a fully functional susbtitute for
current Dec Ada compilers is not zero work!

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Garlington KE]

Richard Kenner (kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu) wrote:
: Actually, GNAT should run just fine under VAX/VMS, since there's a
: well-maintained GCC on VAX/VMS.

: It's Alpha/VMS where there is currently no Ada 95 solution, nor a
: definite plan to make one.

If I understand Robert Dewar's correspondence, it could actually run
on both VAX/VMS and Alpha/VMS, just that the Alpha would have to run
slower that it could since it would be emulating the VAX instruction set.
However, I also got the impression that porting to VMS would not be
quite as easy as Unix, although it could be done.

Nonetheless, there is no GNAT for any VMS, and no one appears to have
announced definite plans to build one. Therefore, I think my original
statement is still correct - Today, if you want Ada 9X on VMS, you are
S.O.L. (sadly out of luck).

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Ken Garlington                  GarlingtonKE@lfwc.lockheed.com
F-22 Computer Resources         Lockheed Fort Worth Co.

If LFWC or the F-22 program has any opinions, they aren't telling me.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Richard Kenner]

In article <3d48s8$4af@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com> l107353@cliffy.lfwc.lockheed.com (Garlington KE) writes:
>If I understand Robert Dewar's correspondence, it could actually run
>on both VAX/VMS and Alpha/VMS, just that the Alpha would have to run
>slower that it could since it would be emulating the VAX instruction set.
>However, I also got the impression that porting to VMS would not be
>quite as easy as Unix, although it could be done.

No, you misunderstand.  I don't think Robert was proposing running VAX
code on Alpha (though I suppose that *is* an option).

There are two issues:

(1) Given a GCC port to a VMS target, there are some system-dependent
issues, such as filename syntax, that have to be addressed to port
GNAT to that system.

(2) There is a GCC port to VAX/VMS, but none currently to Alpha/VMS.
The latter port is neither trivial nor exceedingly complex.  So far no
one has comitted to doing it but someone (you know who you are!) told
me at Tri-Ada that he wanted to do it.


So, GNAT for VAX/VMS requires only (1) above to be done, but GNAT
for Alpha/VMS requires both (1) and (2).  Note that when (1) is done,
that part will also be usable for Alpha/VMS and so once that GCC
port is done, GNAT would then run without any further work.

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Peter Hermann]

Richard Kenner (kenner@lab.ultra.nyu.edu) wrote:
: (1) Given a GCC port to a VMS target, there are some system-dependent
: issues, such as filename syntax, that have to be addressed to port
: GNAT to that system.

Does there exist a free software to translate the directory/filename
syntax between unix and Vax/VMS, back and forth?
Examples: 
               dn       [.dn]
	       dn/fn    [.dn]fn
	       ../fn    [-]fn
	       ~/fn     sys$login:fn
	       /usr/fn  [usr]fn

also conceivable towards MS-DOS et.al. and back.
This would be a tremendous help for data base systems,
especially distributed ones.

2. question: is krunch8 public domain?
   (trimming filnames to 8 chars for ms-dos)

--
Peter Hermann  Tel:+49-711-685-3611 Fax:3758 ph@csv.ica.uni-stuttgart.de
Pfaffenwaldring 27, 70569 Stuttgart Uni Computeranwendungen
Team Ada: "C'mon people let the world begin" (Paul McCartney)

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[Magnus Ericson]

Scott Leschke (leschkes@ferret.cig.mot.com) wrote:
: I heard a well placed Digital marketing guy say recently that DEC was
: abandoning the Ada biz.

: Anybody have insights on this ?

: Scott Leschke
: Motorola Inc.
: -- 
: Scott Leschke

What I have heard is that they have contracted Rational to make an Ada
compiler for there ALPHA machines....

Regards
Magnus

Re: Digital and Ada ?

[CONDIC]

From: Marin David Condic, 407.796.8997, M/S 731-93
Subject: Re: Digital and Ada ?
Original_To:  PROFS%"SMTP@PWAGPDB"
Original_cc:  CONDIC



GarlingtonKE@lfwc.lockheed.com Ken Garlington writes:
>
>Nonetheless, there is no GNAT for any VMS, and no one appears to have
>announced definite plans to build one. Therefore, I think my original
>statement is still correct - Today, if you want Ada 9X on VMS, you are
>S.O.L. (sadly out of luck).
>
Sad but true. Unfortunately for those of us in Government
Contracting, we can't do something this time consuming (A port of
GNAT to VAX/VMS) without a definite project willing to pay for
it. Hence, we aren't likely to pick up the job, even if we'd like
the compiler in house for education and evaluation for future
products. (Maybe the DoD should let a contract to port GNAT to a
few more platforms?)

We end up dependent on the efforts of Universities,
Entrepreneurs, and Hackers-With-Too-Much-Free-Time-On-Their-Hands
to perform these sorts of jobs, even though the Government would
clearly benefit by having the compiler in the hands of as many of
it's contractors as is possible.

If anyone knows of a port of GNAT to VAX/VMS, I'm sure those of
us who are hopelessly VAXinated would appreciate hearing about
it.

Pax,
Marin


Marin David Condic, Senior Computer Engineer    ATT:        407.796.8997
M/S 731-93                                      Technet:    796.8997
Pratt & Whitney, GESP                           Internet:   CONDICMA@PWFL.COM
P.O. Box 109600                                 Internet:   MDCONDIC@AOL.COM
West Palm Beach, FL 33410-9600
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