* periodicity @ 2002-03-15 5:11 Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-15 11:56 ` periodicity (contents of comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen ` (4 more replies) 0 siblings, 5 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-15 5:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Nice to see I can come back to comp.lang.ada after an absense of months, and find exactly the same subjects still/again being discussed. How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. It is sad to me that as long as Ada has been around there still isn't enough substantive discussion to have split off a diversity of forums(*) similar to the more commercially successful and sought after programming languages. This is, after all, a language much older than Java, 2/3rds as old as C, over 40% as old as Fortran by now; why is half the posting volume still full of new language angst and defensiveness? xanthian. I.e., comp.lang.ada.*, where besides the choices easily researched from the other language newsgroups, there really should be a comp.lang.ada.gnat by now, probably with leaf groups of its own. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity (contents of comp.lang.ada) 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-15 11:56 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-15 16:53 ` periodicity Pascal Obry ` (3 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-03-15 11:56 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <a382a7626f81f2efce1b56bbbb0f35ac.48257@mygate.mailgate.org>, "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> writes: > Nice to see I can come back to comp.lang.ada after an absense of months, > and find exactly the same subjects still/again being discussed. > > How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares > or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts > focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries > and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. It is sad to me > that as long as Ada has been around there still isn't enough substantive > discussion to have split off a diversity of forums(*) similar to the > more commercially successful and sought after programming languages. Newsgroup splits in comp.lang.pascal have been quite painful with lots of misposts and cross-posts. > This is, after all, a language much older than Java, 2/3rds as old as > C, over 40% as old as Fortran by now; why is half the posting volume > still full of new language angst and defensiveness? Because new people keep coming to the group with old questions. > I.e., comp.lang.ada.*, where besides the choices easily researched from > the other language newsgroups, there really should be a > comp.lang.ada.gnat by now, probably with leaf groups of its own. There are several mailing lists related to GNAT which work well. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-15 11:56 ` periodicity (contents of comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-03-15 16:53 ` Pascal Obry 2002-03-18 23:39 ` libraries for Ada (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-15 20:54 ` periodicity Poul-Erik Andreasen ` (2 subsequent siblings) 4 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-15 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> writes: > Nice to see I can come back to comp.lang.ada after an absense of months, > and find exactly the same subjects still/again being discussed. > > How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares > or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts > focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries > and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. Good point, what do you have to propose as component, library... ? > It is sad to me that as long as Ada has been around there still isn't enough > substantive discussion to have split off a diversity of forums(*) similar to > the more commercially successful and sought after programming languages. > This is, after all, a language much older than Java, 2/3rds as old as > C, over 40% as old as Fortran by now; why is half the posting volume > still full of new language angst and defensiveness? And the kind of post you just made which will certainly be a long thread :) Pascal. -- --|------------------------------------------------------ --| Pascal Obry Team-Ada Member --| 45, rue Gabriel Peri - 78114 Magny Les Hameaux FRANCE --|------------------------------------------------------ --| http://perso.wanadoo.fr/pascal.obry --| --| "The best way to travel is by means of imagination" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* libraries for Ada (was): periodicity 2002-03-15 16:53 ` periodicity Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-18 23:39 ` Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-18 23:39 UTC (permalink / raw) "Pascal Obry" <p.obry@wanadoo.fr> wrote: > "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> writes: > > How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares > > or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts > > focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries > > and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. > Good point, what do you have to propose as component, library... ? I suspect each person's choices would be colored by their needs, and I _know_ I am going to regret getting into this, and I'm _sure_ I'll hear "but that already exists as (obscure, non-standard hobbiest) library X", but for starters: Ports of the IMSL math and statistics libraries. Libraries of accessor/mapping routines to the various popular kinds of close coupled, high bandwidth, low per processor capability massively parallel processors, and same-named adapters for doing the exact same problems where the underlying hardware is a network of slow communicating, high capability computers (like SETI at Home). Pretty much all of Java, most importantly in the Java style of being well integrated and astonishingly well documented, but compiled instead of byte-compiled, so that for example students can just sit down and build GUIed applications using the Ada language "right out of the box". A (heavy emphasis here, contrasting to the partial implementation of GKS some years ago in Ada) _full_ implementation of PHIGS or of a freely licensed RENDERMAN or some similar high tech graphics library, for photo-realistic animated rendering. Similarly for animation. All of the algorithms published as the Graphics Gems series. A standard set of graph tools for trees, graphs, digraphs, et cetera, and all the usual operations on them. A knowledge engineering library with support for the standard knowledge capture paradigms and structures. High technology text and word processing component libraries. Data presentation libraries. Data mining and indexing component libraries. Evolutionary algorithms and neural network component libraries. (I'd be more than happy to port my recent algorithm inventions here to Ada and contribute them.) Data base functionality tightly couple to the Ada language but supporting e.g. SQL standard protocols. A game-writing toolkit. Arguably, in terms of gaining wider acceptance for Ada, this should be the top priority, as it would attract a crowd of students and individual freelance programmers, exactly the crowd that made C a success outside of its original laboratory environment. Financial management, planning, and estimating tool kits. Stock market predicting components (might as well throw in snake oil, it keeps the snakes well oiled, why not the rest of us?) Network programming, Web search, and Web presentation technology libraries. Essentially, one could take all of the various ACM and IEEE computer oriented proceedings, start at volume 1 number 1 of each, and work forward, adding each published algorithm to a library, while regularizing data representations and such to make the libraries interoperable. Lots of other people would have longer, more practical lists. The points that get buried in list making are that there needs to be a start, that it needs to be organized, that it needs some hope of longevity via a sponsor that is more trustworthy than, for example, the US Military's defunct Ada Mandate, it needs a home from which it will be accessible, like the WUSTL archives, it needs librarians and indexers and master programmers to keep it well organized and easy to search for needed tools, it needs a proofing and filtering input stage where the community can make contributions and know that they won't just disappear. xanthian, "duck and cover" time. [Did I mention "free"? It is pretty pointless to price oneself out of the market when trying to foment a revolution, as Sun does by putting license fees on commercial use of Java, essentially preventing the hobbiest from doing a slow transition to commercial success by putting a huge "first step barrier" in front of the first commercial sale of a Java product. Sun got confused about its main goal: preventing Microsoft from putting Sun out of business by making the OS unimportant again, and got greedy just when a chance of success was looming large.] -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: libraries for Ada (was): periodicity 2002-03-18 23:39 ` libraries for Ada (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-19 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-21 14:45 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-19 13:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Boy, that sure is an ambitious list! :-) I agree that some standard libraries would be an excellent addition to Ada and would serve to make it more attractive. However, I'd make the scope a little narrower in the hope of actually getting it adopted: Some version of math libraries - including statistics & matrix/vector math. (Insert your favorite math needs here, but I'd stick to the branches of math that are most frequently used first. Stats & Linear A seem to be pretty popular across the board, but there may be others as well.) Some version of basic data structures. Could we get the GRACE name settled & maybe see if a reference implementation can find some level of acceptance? Some version of a GUI - I'd base it on XML & possibly third-party interpreters. (I hear there's kind of a standards effort to do this at http://www.mozilla.org/? Or am I mistaken?) Shoot for that much & I'll bet we have a substantially better language. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> wrote in message news:171516c6068daa0fd32844182995dd3b.48257@mygate.mailgate.org... > > I suspect each person's choices would be colored by their needs, and I > _know_ I am going to regret getting into this, and I'm _sure_ I'll hear > "but that already exists as (obscure, non-standard hobbiest) library X", > but for starters: > > Ports of the IMSL math and statistics libraries. > > Libraries of accessor/mapping routines to the various popular kinds of > close coupled, high bandwidth, low per processor capability massively > parallel processors, and same-named adapters for doing the exact same > problems where the underlying hardware is a network of slow > communicating, high capability computers (like SETI at Home). > > Pretty much all of Java, most importantly in the Java style of being > well integrated and astonishingly well documented, but compiled instead > of byte-compiled, so that for example students can just sit down and > build GUIed applications using the Ada language "right out of the box". > > A (heavy emphasis here, contrasting to the partial implementation of GKS > some years ago in Ada) _full_ implementation of PHIGS or of a freely > licensed RENDERMAN or some similar high tech graphics library, for > photo-realistic animated rendering. Similarly for animation. > > All of the algorithms published as the Graphics Gems series. > > A standard set of graph tools for trees, graphs, digraphs, et cetera, > and all the usual operations on them. > > A knowledge engineering library with support for the standard knowledge > capture paradigms and structures. > > High technology text and word processing component libraries. > > Data presentation libraries. > > Data mining and indexing component libraries. > > Evolutionary algorithms and neural network component libraries. (I'd be > more than happy to port my recent algorithm inventions here to Ada and > contribute them.) > > Data base functionality tightly couple to the Ada language but > supporting e.g. SQL standard protocols. > > A game-writing toolkit. Arguably, in terms of gaining wider acceptance > for Ada, this should be the top priority, as it would attract a crowd of > students and individual freelance programmers, exactly the crowd that > made C a success outside of its original laboratory environment. > > Financial management, planning, and estimating tool kits. Stock market > predicting components (might as well throw in snake oil, it keeps the > snakes well oiled, why not the rest of us?) > > Network programming, Web search, and Web presentation technology > libraries. > > Essentially, one could take all of the various ACM and IEEE computer > oriented proceedings, start at volume 1 number 1 of each, and work > forward, adding each published algorithm to a library, while > regularizing data representations and such to make the libraries > interoperable. > > Lots of other people would have longer, more practical lists. > > The points that get buried in list making are that there needs to be a > start, that it needs to be organized, that it needs some hope of > longevity via a sponsor that is more trustworthy than, for example, the > US Military's defunct Ada Mandate, it needs a home from which it will be > accessible, like the WUSTL archives, it needs librarians and indexers > and master programmers to keep it well organized and easy to search for > needed tools, it needs a proofing and filtering input stage where the > community can make contributions and know that they won't just > disappear. > > xanthian, "duck and cover" time. > > [Did I mention "free"? It is pretty pointless to price oneself out of > the market when trying to foment a revolution, as Sun does by putting > license fees on commercial use of Java, essentially preventing the > hobbiest from doing a slow transition to commercial success by putting a > huge "first step barrier" in front of the first commercial sale of a > Java product. Sun got confused about its main goal: preventing > Microsoft from putting Sun out of business by making the OS unimportant > again, and got greedy just when a chance of success was looming large.] > > > -- > Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: libraries for Ada (was): periodicity 2002-03-19 13:35 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-21 14:45 ` Ted Dennison 2002-03-21 16:57 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-03-21 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) (misc.misc trimmed) "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> wrote in message news:<a77erb$ps7$1@nh.pace.co.uk>... > Some version of basic data structures. Could we get the GRACE name settled & > maybe see if a reference implementation can find some level of acceptance? I'm attempting to open up the "Grace" project on Savannah. I'll let everyone know when(/if) it is approved. When it is, I'll post the implementation I have under the GMGPL (the spec is Public Domain). -- T.E.D. Home - mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison) Homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: libraries for Ada (was): periodicity 2002-03-21 14:45 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-03-21 16:57 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-03-21 16:57 UTC (permalink / raw) Sounds like a good start. Hopefully, it will find some acceptance & growth. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message news:4519e058.0203210645.406dd079@posting.google.com... > (misc.misc trimmed) > > I'm attempting to open up the "Grace" project on Savannah. I'll let > everyone know when(/if) it is approved. > > When it is, I'll post the implementation I have under the GMGPL (the > spec is Public Domain). > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-15 11:56 ` periodicity (contents of comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-15 16:53 ` periodicity Pascal Obry @ 2002-03-15 20:54 ` Poul-Erik Andreasen 2002-03-16 3:03 ` periodicity sk 2002-09-18 14:58 ` periodicity Matthew Heaney 4 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Poul-Erik Andreasen @ 2002-03-15 20:54 UTC (permalink / raw) Kent Paul Dolan wrote: > > Nice to see I can come back to comp.lang.ada after an absense of months, > and find exactly the same subjects still/again being discussed. > > How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares > or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts > focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries > and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. It is sad to me > that as long as Ada has been around there still isn't enough substantive > discussion to have split off a diversity of forums(*) similar to the > more commercially successful and sought after programming languages. > This is, after all, a language much older than Java, 2/3rds as old as > C, over 40% as old as Fortran by now; why is half the posting volume > still full of new language angst and defensiveness? I can follow your point of view, but maybe it is a question about angle. resetly there have been an performanse argue about Ada against Fortran77. If The quetioner instaed haed made a question like:" how do i performace optimize this code" he migth have recieved a lot of RTFM like ansvers. There are som very special mecanims in usenet, i. e. If you want too be sure to get a good response, you can have a friend to make a deliberatly wrong response, then things will accellerate. -- - Poul-Erik Andreasen Hvis du mangler nogen til noget eller du kan noget for nogen. http://linux-freelance.pea.dk ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-03-15 20:54 ` periodicity Poul-Erik Andreasen @ 2002-03-16 3:03 ` sk 2002-03-18 7:51 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-09-18 14:58 ` periodicity Matthew Heaney 4 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: sk @ 2002-03-16 3:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Hi, >Nice to see I can come back to comp.lang.ada after an absense >of months, and find exactly the same subjects still/again >being discussed. I feel your pain :-) > ... probably with leaf groups of its own. Don't agree with splitting c.l.a up into sub forums though. -- ------------------------------------- -- Merge vertically for real address ------------------------------------- s n p @ t . o k i e k c c m ------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-16 3:03 ` periodicity sk @ 2002-03-18 7:51 ` Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 5:32 ` periodicity Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-18 7:51 UTC (permalink / raw) "sk" <noname@myob.com> wrote: > Don't agree with splitting c.l.a up into sub forums though. Well, perhaps the criteria have changed; with around a hundred new messages since I logged in yesterday, I'd guess a six or ten way split would be in order. xanthian. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-18 7:51 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-19 5:32 ` Robert Dewar 2002-03-19 20:26 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2002-03-19 5:32 UTC (permalink / raw) "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> wrote in message news:<4f13319b766a72c7ae2531d5c399bdca.48257@mygate.mailgate.org>... > Well, perhaps the criteria have changed; with around a hundred new > messages since I logged in yesterday, I'd guess a six or ten way split > would be in order. I think this would be a bad idea. A hundred new messages a day is perfectly manageable if you have a decent news reader that tracks threads. Mostly the subjects of threads are clear enough, I find I only look at about one third of all the threads. A thread like "future of Ada" has lots of posts, but if you are not interested in advocacy posts (I am not), you just skip the whole thread. THat's near enough equivalent to having a separate advocacy subgroup. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-19 5:32 ` periodicity Robert Dewar @ 2002-03-19 20:26 ` Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 23:40 ` periodicity (splitting comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-19 20:26 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote: > "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> wrote: >> Well, perhaps the criteria have changed; with around a hundred new >> messages since I logged in yesterday, I'd guess a six or ten way split >> would be in order. > I think this would be a bad idea. A hundred new messages > a day is perfectly manageable if you have a decent news > reader that tracks threads. Mostly the subjects of threads > are clear enough, I find I only look at about one third > of all the threads. A thread like "future of Ada" has lots > of posts, but if you are not interested in advocacy posts > (I am not), you just skip the whole thread. THat's near > enough equivalent to having a separate advocacy subgroup. Ah, yes, the old "I've got great technology, so the devil take the hindmost" argument. Of course, if one were trying to evangelize some issue near and dear to one, say, the wide dissemination of a programming language, to someplace where the technology isn't the most modern, say, the third world, then a willingness to believe that the world is not restricted to just what you see on your desktop might be a wiser approach. But then you and I have been around this barn many, many times, Robert. You aren't learning very fast, and I'm not changing my mind at all, so you and I discussing your egocentric universe, in public or in private, is a waste of time for all concerned. Let's leave this discussion, if any, to others. xanthian. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity (splitting comp.lang.ada) 2002-03-19 20:26 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-19 23:40 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-20 1:10 ` periodicity David Starner 2002-03-20 17:56 ` periodicity Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-03-19 23:40 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <3cd9b572a0b9f2d8b2459674bacef4b6.48257@mygate.mailgate.org>, "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> writes: > "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote: > >> "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> wrote: > >>> Well, perhaps the criteria have changed; with around a hundred new >>> messages since I logged in yesterday, I'd guess a six or ten way split >>> would be in order. > >> I think this would be a bad idea. A hundred new messages >> a day is perfectly manageable if you have a decent news >> reader that tracks threads. Mostly the subjects of threads >> are clear enough, I find I only look at about one third >> of all the threads. A thread like "future of Ada" has lots >> of posts, but if you are not interested in advocacy posts >> (I am not), you just skip the whole thread. THat's near >> enough equivalent to having a separate advocacy subgroup. > > Ah, yes, the old "I've got great technology, so the devil take the > hindmost" argument. > > Of course, if one were trying to evangelize some issue near and dear to > one, say, the wide dissemination of a programming language, to someplace > where the technology isn't the most modern, say, the third world, then a > willingness to believe that the world is not restricted to just what you > see on your desktop might be a wiser approach. While Robert may be guilty of hawking his favorite brand of newsreader (without naming it) in that post, such is actually not necessary for his side of the argument. I use ANUNEWS, which has virtually none of the spiffy features people praise from other newsreaders. But threading is basic. I have no trouble skipping everything that has been delivered to date on a given topic, or killfiling the topic for the future. I have much more faith in this old newsreader than in relying on posters to put their material into the right group, avoid cross-posting, etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-19 20:26 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 23:40 ` periodicity (splitting comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-03-20 1:10 ` David Starner 2002-03-20 17:48 ` Universal access to threaded news readers, NOT (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-20 17:56 ` periodicity Stephen Leake 2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: David Starner @ 2002-03-20 1:10 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:26:49 +0000 (UTC), Kent Paul Dolan <xanthian@well.com> wrote: > Ah, yes, the old "I've got great technology, so the devil take the > hindmost" argument. Um, yeah. slrn is a half megabyte binary, that can probably be run on a 386 running Minix. It handles this newsgroup just fine. If you can't find a newsbrowser capable of handling this newsgroup, you need to look harder. -- David Starner - starner@okstate.edu "It's not a habit; it's cool; I feel alive. If you don't have it you're on the other side." - K's Choice (probably refering to the Internet) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Universal access to threaded news readers, NOT (was): periodicity 2002-03-20 1:10 ` periodicity David Starner @ 2002-03-20 17:48 ` Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-20 17:58 ` Darren New 0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-20 17:48 UTC (permalink / raw) "David Starner" <dvdeug@x8b4e53cd.dhcp.okstate.edu> wrote in message news:a78nip$8q61@news.cis.okstate.edu... > On Tue, 19 Mar 2002 20:26:49 +0000 (UTC), Kent Paul Dolan <xanthian@well.com> wrote: > > Ah, yes, the old "I've got great technology, so the devil take the > > hindmost" argument. > > Um, yeah. slrn is a half megabyte binary, that can probably be run on a > 386 running Minix. It handles this newsgroup just fine. If you can't > find a newsbrowser capable of handling this newsgroup, you need to look > harder. And if you are marginally competent in English, using a computer you inherited from a defunct international aid foundation, your technology is, oh, say readnews(), because that's what came in the box, and you are just getting into computers for the first time, so the idea of downloading and upgrading software is completely foreign to you, all this availability of threaded newsreaders helps you exactly how? xanthian. Trust me, the world is _not_ what you see on your desktop. One of my former friends refurbishes "closet clutter" computers for the handicapped (he designs, constructs, and fits prostheses as his day job, it was a natural hobby/volunteer effort choice for him); again, on a zero budget, he isn't going to be going out and getting spiffy new software for his 8086-class computers, and his beneficiaries are very likely stuck with what they find in the box. The Clovis, California Senior Citizens' Center, behind which I sleep on the sidewalk, is still running computers with Microsoft Project Manager as their operating system for their publically accessible computers used by seniors there. Whenever you assume that a high tech capability exists everywhere, 1) you are lying to yourself, and 2) you are thereby excluding _someone_ with the choices you make based on an unrealistic model of the universe. As a separate issue, many places even in the first world, people pay for their computer access by the kilobyte, and download newsgroups in off hours, making them extremely volume sensitive. Splitting a newsgroup is also of great benefit to these people. At least half of comp.lang.ada would go in an advocacy group in most of the other language groups (I take a bow for having invented the *.advocacy concept with comp.sys.amiga.advocacy back in the early 1990's) and for these volume sensitive readers, being able to exclude that one group would cut their usage charges to read this group in half. -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: Universal access to threaded news readers, NOT (was): periodicity 2002-03-20 17:48 ` Universal access to threaded news readers, NOT (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan @ 2002-03-20 17:58 ` Darren New 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Darren New @ 2002-03-20 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw) Kent Paul Dolan wrote: > And if you are marginally competent in English, using a computer you > inherited from a defunct international aid foundation, your technology > is, oh, say readnews(), because that's what came in the box, and you are > just getting into computers for the first time, so the idea of > downloading and upgrading software is completely foreign to you, all > this availability of threaded newsreaders helps you exactly how? About the same amount that a downloadable Ada compiler helps? -- Darren New San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand. Remember, drive defensively if you drink. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-19 20:26 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 23:40 ` periodicity (splitting comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-20 1:10 ` periodicity David Starner @ 2002-03-20 17:56 ` Stephen Leake 2002-03-20 21:17 ` periodicity Randy Brukardt 2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread From: Stephen Leake @ 2002-03-20 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw) "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> writes: > "Robert Dewar" <dewar@gnat.com> wrote: > > > I think this would be a bad idea. A hundred new messages > > a day is perfectly manageable if you have a decent news > > reader that tracks threads. Mostly the subjects of threads > > are clear enough, I find I only look at about one third > > of all the threads. A thread like "future of Ada" has lots > > of posts, but if you are not interested in advocacy posts > > (I am not), you just skip the whole thread. THat's near > > enough equivalent to having a separate advocacy subgroup. > > Ah, yes, the old "I've got great technology, so the devil take the > hindmost" argument. In this case "great technology" consists of Gnu Emacs or Netscape Mozilla, both free downloads that run on any reasonable computer (I include 5 year old Pentiums running Win95 in my definition of "reasonable"). > Of course, if one were trying to evangelize some issue near and dear > to one, say, the wide dissemination of a programming language, to > someplace where the technology isn't the most modern, say, the third > world, then a willingness to believe that the world is not > restricted to just what you see on your desktop might be a wiser > approach. If they can't run Netscape, they can't run Ada. So I think that's ok! > <snip> > > Let's leave this discussion, if any, to others. Please follow your own advice! -- -- Stephe ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-20 17:56 ` periodicity Stephen Leake @ 2002-03-20 21:17 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2002-03-20 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Stephen Leake wrote in message ... >If they can't run Netscape, they can't run Ada. So I think that's ok! Ada /= GNAT! Janus/Ada 83 for MS-DOS is still available (at least until the manuals run out or we move again...); all it requires is a 640K MS-DOS machine - even an 8086 will work. That was a fully validated Ada 83 compiler (ACVC 1.11, the last Ada 83 one). The price is still $129 (see www.rrsoftware.com). We'd charge less if someone wanted a bunch (we don't have any manufactured ones left, so there is a cost to making one on demand). Randy Brukardt. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* Re: periodicity 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2002-03-16 3:03 ` periodicity sk @ 2002-09-18 14:58 ` Matthew Heaney 4 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread From: Matthew Heaney @ 2002-09-18 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) "Kent Paul Dolan" <xanthian@well.com> wrote in message news:a382a7626f81f2efce1b56bbbb0f35ac.48257@mygate.mailgate.org... > How about instead of focusing on the future of Ada, and how it compares > or contrasts with every language on the planet, more useful efforts > focus on the present of Ada, and making it more full of good libraries > and freeware tools so that it will _have_ a future. I realize that this is an old post, but I have indeed written a library that may be of interest to Ada users. Charles is a container library, modeled closely on the C++ STL. You can download the library from my home page: http://home.earthlink.net/~matthewjheaney/charles-20020918.zip I make drops about once a week, so you may which to check in periodically to get the latest version. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-09-18 14:58 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-03-15 5:11 periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-15 11:56 ` periodicity (contents of comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-15 16:53 ` periodicity Pascal Obry 2002-03-18 23:39 ` libraries for Ada (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 13:35 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-21 14:45 ` Ted Dennison 2002-03-21 16:57 ` Marin David Condic 2002-03-15 20:54 ` periodicity Poul-Erik Andreasen 2002-03-16 3:03 ` periodicity sk 2002-03-18 7:51 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 5:32 ` periodicity Robert Dewar 2002-03-19 20:26 ` periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-19 23:40 ` periodicity (splitting comp.lang.ada) Larry Kilgallen 2002-03-20 1:10 ` periodicity David Starner 2002-03-20 17:48 ` Universal access to threaded news readers, NOT (was): periodicity Kent Paul Dolan 2002-03-20 17:58 ` Darren New 2002-03-20 17:56 ` periodicity Stephen Leake 2002-03-20 21:17 ` periodicity Randy Brukardt 2002-09-18 14:58 ` periodicity Matthew Heaney
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