Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

Ada vendors,

Could you please publish price list of your products?

With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list public,
any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results in "you
will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first attempt of
such sales representative is investigating the depth of my pocket. Usual
question is "what for you will be using our product?" that generates my
standard answer: "not your f...g business".

It seems that "used car dealer mentality" is the REAL obstacle in
making Ada more popular than it is.

A.L.

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[McDoobie]

In article <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski"
<lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote:

> Ada vendors,
> 
> Could you please publish price list of your products?
> 
> With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list
> public, any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results
> in "you will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first
> attempt of such sales representative is investigating the depth of my
> pocket. Usual question is "what for you will be using our product?" that
> generates my standard answer: "not your f...g business".
> 
> It seems that "used car dealer mentality" is the REAL obstacle in making
> Ada more popular than it is.
> 
> A.L.

I second that motion.

I'm checking around for a good Ada development environment, and I wouldnt
mind picking up a copy of GNAT Pro or the Aonix toolchain. But "contact
our sales rep" is irritating as hell.

I suspect the reason they wont list the prices is because it would
probably take a real good con-artist salesman to get me to even consider
paying what thier asking. It gives me the  impression that they're hiding
something.

I wouldnt have any problem paying for a decent development environment,
one that will run on Linux or BSD, but until these companies are a little
more forthcoming with the critical  information, I will refuse to buy from
them. At least with Java and C and such, I can  purchase tools right
online with a credit or debit card and them delivered next day air
(should I choose to do so).
So piss on it, for now I'll continue using the free tools that are
available. Dealing with "Sales Reps" feels too much like dealing with
telemarketers.

Laters.

McDoobie

chris@dont.spam.me

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Gerhard Häring]

McDoobie wrote:
> In article <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski"
> <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Ada vendors,
>>
>>Could you please publish price list of your products?

<me-too>Yes, please!</me-too>

> [...]
> I suspect the reason they wont list the prices is because it would
> probably take a real good con-artist salesman to get me to even consider
> paying what thier asking. It gives me the  impression that they're hiding
> something.


(In particular, all the GPL-but-alternative-licensing-available 
companies  don't seem to publish prices. ACT, Cygnus/Redhat, ...) I did 
never bother to ask in such cases, because if the price isn't public, 
I'm instantly turned off. If they won't say, I'm sure it costs way too much.

Gerhard
-- 
Gerhard H�ring
skynamics AG
g.haering@skynamics.com
http://www.skynamics.com

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <3B80FDE0.1020608@___skynamics.com.invalid>, Gerhard =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E4ring?= <g.haering@___skynamics.com.invalid> writes:
> McDoobie wrote:
>> In article <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski"
>> <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>>Ada vendors,
>>>
>>>Could you please publish price list of your products?
> 
> <me-too>Yes, please!</me-too>
> 
>> [...]
>> I suspect the reason they wont list the prices is because it would
>> probably take a real good con-artist salesman to get me to even consider
>> paying what thier asking. It gives me the  impression that they're hiding
>> something.
> 
> 
> (In particular, all the GPL-but-alternative-licensing-available 
> companies  don't seem to publish prices. ACT, Cygnus/Redhat, ...) I did 
> never bother to ask in such cases, because if the price isn't public, 
> I'm instantly turned off. If they won't say, I'm sure it costs way too much.

This is certainly not exclusive to that set of vendors.  OCsystems,
Aonix and Compaq also do not publish the prices of their Ada compilers.

Don't infer that I am defending the practice by pointing out other
offenders.

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen]

Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam (Larry Kilgallen) writes:

> In article <3B80FDE0.1020608@___skynamics.com.invalid>, Gerhard =?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=E4ring?= <g.haering@___skynamics.com.invalid> writes:
> > McDoobie wrote:
> >> In article <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski"
> >> <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote:
> >> 
> >> 
> >>>Ada vendors,
> >>>
> >>>Could you please publish price list of your products?
> > 
> > <me-too>Yes, please!</me-too>
> > 
> >> [...]
> >> I suspect the reason they wont list the prices is because it would
> >> probably take a real good con-artist salesman to get me to even consider
> >> paying what thier asking. It gives me the  impression that they're hiding
> >> something.
> > 
> > 
> > (In particular, all the GPL-but-alternative-licensing-available 
> > companies  don't seem to publish prices. ACT, Cygnus/Redhat, ...) I did 
> > never bother to ask in such cases, because if the price isn't public, 
> > I'm instantly turned off. If they won't say, I'm sure it costs way too much.
> 
> This is certainly not exclusive to that set of vendors.  OCsystems,
> Aonix and Compaq also do not publish the prices of their Ada compilers.
> 
> Don't infer that I am defending the practice by pointing out other
> offenders.

Agree. It seems that they are just not interested in that market
segment where you buy a nicely packaged development kit over the
counter and say goodbye. It's a pity.

-- 
Kabelsalat ist gesund.

Ole-Hj. Kristensen

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

A real quick search from Google Computers On Line:

http://www.computer-on-line.com/msvc6ent.html

The posted price there: $1159. I know this comes in different editions -
this particular one is the "Enterprise Edition" - so it may available at
considerably less cost in other configurations. (A little digging around
shows up the "Professional Edition at $490.)

Anyway, I don't think Ada stands much of a chance of overtaking C++, et
alia, unless it can find a way to have a spiffy little boxed kit with
everything you ever wanted in it just right there for a similar price tag
and as easily accessible. (Maybe get it on Amazon? Probably easier to do
than get it some shelf space in CompUSA.)

Just a thought as to what Ada needs to do to meet customer expectations.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:ym2g7.45548$K6.17757773@news2...
> In article <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net>, "Andrzej Lewandowski"
> <lewandoREMOVE@attglobal.net> wrote:
>
> > Ada vendors,
> >
> > Could you please publish price list of your products?
> >
> > With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list
> > public, any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results
> > in "you will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first
> > attempt of such sales representative is investigating the depth of my
> > pocket. Usual question is "what for you will be using our product?" that
> > generates my standard answer: "not your f...g business".
> >
> > It seems that "used car dealer mentality" is the REAL obstacle in making
> > Ada more popular than it is.
> >
> > A.L.
>
> I second that motion.
>
> I'm checking around for a good Ada development environment, and I wouldnt
> mind picking up a copy of GNAT Pro or the Aonix toolchain. But "contact
> our sales rep" is irritating as hell.
>
> I suspect the reason they wont list the prices is because it would
> probably take a real good con-artist salesman to get me to even consider
> paying what thier asking. It gives me the  impression that they're hiding
> something.
>
> I wouldnt have any problem paying for a decent development environment,
> one that will run on Linux or BSD, but until these companies are a little
> more forthcoming with the critical  information, I will refuse to buy from
> them. At least with Java and C and such, I can  purchase tools right
> online with a credit or debit card and them delivered next day air
> (should I choose to do so).
> So piss on it, for now I'll continue using the free tools that are
> available. Dealing with "Sales Reps" feels too much like dealing with
> telemarketers.
>
> Laters.
>
> McDoobie
>
> chris@dont.spam.me

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9lr5m9$572$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>considerably less cost in other configurations. (A little digging around
>shows up the "Professional Edition at $490.)
>
>Anyway, I don't think Ada stands much of a chance of overtaking C++, et
>alia, unless it can find a way to have a spiffy little boxed kit with
>everything you ever wanted in it just right there for a similar price tag
>and as easily accessible. (Maybe get it on Amazon? Probably easier to do
>than get it some shelf space in CompUSA.)

Given that OA Professional is going for roughly the same price as VC++, it would
clearly be in Aonix's best interests to sell this way. But we already had an
insider's report about how they tried to do this and failed. Admittedly there
are more options today. However, given that they still aren't mass-marketing it,
I'd have to assume that either:

a) They are complete morons
or
b) There is some good reason why this just isn't cost-effective.


---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

We've kind of been around this bend before. But why should that stop us from
talking about it all over again? :-)

From what I saw of OA's environment in the past it was reasonably spiffy -
but not very distinct from Microsoft's offering - basically you had to know
MSVC++ and Win32api from some other source in order to really use what OA
gave you. I'd probably have a lot easier time with it now given that I've
had to learn MSVC++ in some detail. The price for a basic development kit
was in the ballpark so it could be a contender.

IMHO, something like OA needs to offer more product distinction - say a more
Ada-ish interface to Win32api/MFC - something that does it different/better.
Adding some additional tools/utilities might make some difference. (I'll
have to take another look at it as soon as I can get that elusive Round
Tuit, just to see if maybe it comes now with any additional features.)

I imagine GNAT could also be a contender in the same field - possibly with
the advantage of portability across platforms. (That could be a major
selling point!) But it would have to have better packaging than it currently
does to get to play in that arena.

It might be hard to sell Ada like MSVC++ is sold if you aren't Microsoft. I
understand that. But I think it has to at least come close to being a
visible spot on the horizon if it is to stand a chance. To do that, it has
to have the kind of kit-form that MSVC++ has and offer something
extra/better/different to the developer. It also needs to show up at least a
little bit in the forums in which people find MSVC++. That industrious
college kid or part-time hacker or hobbyist who doesn't know much about Ada
(if anything at all) has to see it and be presented with something easy to
use out of the box or they won't find much reason to go out of their way to
try it & maybe decide to like it.

OA might make a good starting point. I could imagine how if they took what
they have so far and said "well, yeah, you *can* build stuff with Ada for
Windows the same way you do with C++, but why would you want to? Here we've
got 'Ada-face' - the portable OS interface & GUI builder that lets you build
an app that runs on Windows or Linux (and others) with no changes - and
we've got a really good 'How To' book along with the usual debugger, editor,
etc. Oh, and BTW, we outdid the MFC by providing a bunch of data structures
and utility code that does more than make up for the weaknesses of C++ -
since Ada doesn't have those weaknesses." A portable OS/GUI interface might
make a good fit with their other products as well if things like Software
thru Pictures took advantage of the interface by providing prefabricated
design components that lined up with it.

(Maybe I should apply for the job of Vice President of Product Development
with Aonix? :-) Nahhh! I'd have to move out of Florida! :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:Zccg7.8098$2u.59102@www.newsranger.com...
> Given that OA Professional is going for roughly the same price as VC++, it
would
> clearly be in Aonix's best interests to sell this way. But we already had
an
> insider's report about how they tried to do this and failed. Admittedly
there
> are more options today. However, given that they still aren't
mass-marketing it,
> I'd have to assume that either:
>
> a) They are complete morons
> or
> b) There is some good reason why this just isn't cost-effective.
>

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Reivilo Snuved]

"McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> writes:
[snip]
> 
> I'm checking around for a good Ada development environment, and I wouldnt
> mind picking up a copy of GNAT Pro or the Aonix toolchain. But "contact
> our sales rep" is irritating as hell.

NOTE : I am posting this message on behalf of Greg Gicca, Director of Product 
       Management with Aonix (his newsserver is currently down) 

Chris,

We at Aonix have specific published prices and discount policies that
can not be varied from by a sales person or other employee without
approval from a VP or higher.  We do not publish prices due to legal
and country reasons.  The legal aspects tend to be that any price
published is only valid when published and can change at any time.
Thus publishing it in a public forum puts out prices that could be
misleading.  Also a price for a particular country may have
adjustments due to shipping or other concerns.  Secondly our prices
for a particular currency are based on the exchange rate at the time
of sale (quote).  Our fixed price schedule is based on US dollars (we
have to pick one currency).  The daily price in French Francs, or even
the Euro will vary.

When Aonix produces a quote for a particular product or set of
products it is very common for the purchasing agency to ask for the
relevant pages from our product catalog that list these prices, and
discount policies.  We can not vary from the prices or policies as
stated above.  We in fact "never" want to be the position of having
one representative quote a different price from another company
representative, regardless of geographic region or country location
(taking into account specific country differences, currency, etc.)

Any price quote you thus receive from Aonix from one individual will
be the same quote you would get from any other.  Used car type pricing
tactics are against our (and most other) Ada company policies.  If you
ask us for a price for a product it will be that published in our
product catalog.  If you ask for discount policies it will also be
that published in the product catalog and will clearly show that a
larger quantity purchase would save money on per product costs.

The one exception to our publishing prices is the ObjectAda Special
Edition product.  It is published as being for free as a download from
or web site, at:

http://www.aonix.com


Sincerely,

Greg Gicca
Aonix
Director of Product Management

adamark@sd.aonix.no.spam.com

-- 
Olivier Devuns                         | Aonix: http://www.aonix.com

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[McDoobie]

In article <st7kvy4p0b.fsf@aonix.fr>, Reivilo Snuved
<odevuns@iname.JUNK.com> wrote:

> "McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> writes:
> [snip]
>> 
>> I'm checking around for a good Ada development environment, and I
>> wouldnt mind picking up a copy of GNAT Pro or the Aonix toolchain. But
>> "contact our sales rep" is irritating as hell.
> 
> NOTE : I am posting this message on behalf of Greg Gicca, Director of
> Product 
>        Management with Aonix (his newsserver is currently down) 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> We at Aonix have specific published prices and discount policies that
> can not be varied from by a sales person or other employee without
> approval from a VP or higher.  We do not publish prices due to legal and
> country reasons.  The legal aspects tend to be that any price published
> is only valid when published and can change at any time. Thus publishing
> it in a public forum puts out prices that could be misleading.  Also a
> price for a particular country may have adjustments due to shipping or
> other concerns.  Secondly our prices for a particular currency are based
> on the exchange rate at the time of sale (quote).  Our fixed price
> schedule is based on US dollars (we have to pick one currency).  The
> daily price in French Francs, or even the Euro will vary.
> 
> When Aonix produces a quote for a particular product or set of products
> it is very common for the purchasing agency to ask for the relevant
> pages from our product catalog that list these prices, and discount
> policies.  We can not vary from the prices or policies as stated above. 
> We in fact "never" want to be the position of having one representative
> quote a different price from another company representative, regardless
> of geographic region or country location
> (taking into account specific country differences, currency, etc.)
> 
> Any price quote you thus receive from Aonix from one individual will be
> the same quote you would get from any other.  Used car type pricing
> tactics are against our (and most other) Ada company policies.  If you
> ask us for a price for a product it will be that published in our
> product catalog.  If you ask for discount policies it will also be that
> published in the product catalog and will clearly show that a larger
> quantity purchase would save money on per product costs.
> 
> The one exception to our publishing prices is the ObjectAda Special
> Edition product.  It is published as being for free as a download from
> or web site, at:
> 
> http://www.aonix.com
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Greg Gicca Aonix Director of Product Management
> 
> adamark@sd.aonix.no.spam.com

Wow. You really gotta jump through hoops on price issue.

Now that I understand the reasoning behind this, it doesnt seem so
annoying.

Normally I plan in advance what tools I'm gonna buy, then I save up the
money and pay for it in cash or through a debit card.(Learned my lesson
about credit cards.) The reason being is this...There are plenty of good
and honest salespeople out there. And I  hate calling up the salesperson
and putting them through all the hassle of getting a price quote
, and them expecting a sale, when I'm not even certain I'm gonna buy the
thing.  It makes for an
unpleasant experience for both people. It's much simpler when I know how
much money I need to put together, then I call the sales rep and say "I
wanna buy product X. Heres the dough. Pleasure doing business with ya.
Talk to you again sometime."

However...I suppose I could contact a sales rep. Suppose I'll give it a
shot.

Thanks.

McDoobie chris@dont.spam.me

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Matthew Woodcraft]

Reivilo Snuved <odevuns@iname.JUNK.com> writes:

> [...]�We do not publish prices due to legal
> and country reasons.  The legal aspects tend to be that any price
> published is only valid when published and can change at any time.
> Thus publishing it in a public forum puts out prices that could be
> misleading.  Also a price for a particular country may have
> adjustments due to shipping or other concerns.  Secondly our prices
> for a particular currency are based on the exchange rate at the time
> of sale (quote).  Our fixed price schedule is based on US dollars (we
> have to pick one currency).  The daily price in French Francs, or even
> the Euro will vary.

All these reasons would seem to apply to any product sold
internationally, yet most companies seem able to quote prices.

In my experience, computer hardware changes price much more rapidly than
software, yet I see many hardware companies advertising prices.

I think if you were to publish indicative prices in US dollars, most
people interested in buying an Ada compiler would be able to make an
adequate estimate of the currency conversion.

-M-

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

Its pretty easy to go "Prices good until Whenevuary 32, 2001, Payable in US
dollars drawn against a US bank, Terms subject to change without notice."
Typically, the reason for not doing this is because then the product becomes
a commodity that is bought from the lowest bidder. (Its a dirty little
secret that marketing folks would rather you didn't know about. :-) There
are some currency exchange issues, but generally currency doesn't fluctuate
erratically in big jumps from one day to the next, so price quotes for
fairly inexpensive items (not, say $100m worth of Japanese steel - but a few
hundred worth of software) over a fairly short time is not likely to be a
problem.

If you can get someone to talk to a sales rep then the rep can start
pointing out the product distinction that justifies the (possibly) higher
prices. With Gnat out there downloadable free off charge, anybody who says
"Here's my Ada compiler for $20..." is at a disadvantage because $20 is more
than $0. Someone has to be able to explain that for $20 you get efficiency
improvement by a factor of 10, absolutely no bugs, free 24 hour a day
telephone support, and a rep coming to your house to install the compiler
and lean over your shoulder for the first month fixing anything that goes
wrong. (Now is it worth $20 to you? How about if I throw in a set of Ginsu
Steak Knives? :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Matthew Woodcraft" <mattheww@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:87bslabaro.fsf@chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
> All these reasons would seem to apply to any product sold
> internationally, yet most companies seem able to quote prices.
>
> In my experience, computer hardware changes price much more rapidly than
> software, yet I see many hardware companies advertising prices.
>
> I think if you were to publish indicative prices in US dollars, most
> people interested in buying an Ada compiler would be able to make an
> adequate estimate of the currency conversion.
>
> -M-

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Jerry Petrey]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> Its pretty easy to go "Prices good until Whenevuary 32, 2001, Payable in US
> dollars drawn against a US bank, Terms subject to change without notice."
> Typically, the reason for not doing this is because then the product becomes
> a commodity that is bought from the lowest bidder. (Its a dirty little
> secret that marketing folks would rather you didn't know about. :-) There
> are some currency exchange issues, but generally currency doesn't fluctuate
> erratically in big jumps from one day to the next, so price quotes for
> fairly inexpensive items (not, say $100m worth of Japanese steel - but a few
> hundred worth of software) over a fairly short time is not likely to be a
> problem.
> 
> If you can get someone to talk to a sales rep then the rep can start
> pointing out the product distinction that justifies the (possibly) higher
> prices. With Gnat out there downloadable free off charge, anybody who says
> "Here's my Ada compiler for $20..." is at a disadvantage because $20 is more
> than $0. Someone has to be able to explain that for $20 you get efficiency
> improvement by a factor of 10, absolutely no bugs, free 24 hour a day
> telephone support, and a rep coming to your house to install the compiler
> and lean over your shoulder for the first month fixing anything that goes
> wrong. (Now is it worth $20 to you? How about if I throw in a set of Ginsu
> Steak Knives? :-)
> 
> MDC

I agree Marin.  There are no valid reasons not to publish the prices of 
Ada compilers and tools.  As you have said before, we need a vendor to
make a complete development environment available at a reasonable price
to the individual user.  Before Ada can get more accepted in the
industry,
more S/W engineers must start using it and one way to get more using it
is
to make it available to them in a very usable form and as cheap as
possible.
In the long run, you'll increase your sales to the big companies this
way.
It is people like us who have a chance to influence our companies to
make
the right choices of tools and languages.  I am happy to try out a
number of
Ada compilers at home but I sure don't expect to pay $500 to $1000 for
each of
them.

My experience with Aonix has not been a good one.  A few years ago, I
went that
route of contacting their sales rep for a compiler to evaluate (the
early version
of Object Ada).  They made a reasonable price on a consultant's version
with a
support contract.  But after a year had passed and I had not received
any notice
of renewal of the support, I tried contacting the lady who handled
this.  Over a
period of a few weeks, I called dozens of times, left messages when I
could get
through at all and never received a return call.  I finally gave up for
a while 
until I tracked down a way to call her without going through the phone
mail
system.  She quickly dismissed all the trouble I had reaching her and
said since
my support contract had expired I would have to pay for two years to
catch up (even
though there had not been any updates in that last year).

In my previous job at Lockheed using an Aonix Ada compiler we paid an
outrageous
price for support which was still not good. 

This is not the way for a vendor to build a big customer base in a
market that
is (sadly) rather small already.

We need Ada vendors who really care about the long term growth of Ada
and are
willing to make commitments to help that growth.  Ada is a language that
can
make difference in the quality (and safety) of the software being
produced 
today but compiler vendors must start taking a long term view and do
'the 
right thing' to support this growth.

Jerry
-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Jerry Petrey                                                
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation, Guidance, & Control
-- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to
reply                  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

Well, I'm not sure I said "There are no valid reasons not to publish the
prices..." :-) The reason for not publishing the prices is to avoid turning
the product into a commodity and start a bidding war. That's a valid reason
from the vendor's point of view. From the consumer's point of view, we'd
*like* for it to become a commodity so we get the lowest possible price.

Note that it may help Ada to become a commodity - but it doesn't necessarily
help any particular vendor. They have to make their choices based on what
they think will help their business the most. I don't begrudge them that -
but so long as we are honest about why price quotes aren't given over the
Internet I'm comfortable with it. Failing to put $$$ numbers on a web site
means that basically you avoid the "commodity" pricing wars and you will
likely only get serious inquiries from more significant concerns. (Home
hobyists are more likely to go "Intercourse this! I'll go download GNAT
rather than have to deal with a salesman..." There is a lot of resistance to
filling out marketing surveys &/or calling for more info - hence about the
only people who will call are the ones who are real serious about buying.)
So you gain something there as a business. But you give something else up at
the same time. The minute you've got your compiler out there advertised for
$29.95 - just call with your credit card and we'll ship it to you next-day
air... then you are doing something to broaden the market. You're collecting
up all those customers who have a much lower reservation price and working
on generating that "critical mass". You gain there as a business, but you
again lose other things in the process. Now you've got to be a different
kind of a business - 24 hour hot lines, different kinds of support, etc.
You've eroded profit margins and made the industry much more competitive.
But does anybody remember when Borland started selling Pascal compilers for
$29.95 and totally shattered the traditional unafordable compiler pricing
model? What happened? Consumers started programming instead of it just being
a thing for big businesses and universities.

What's best for the business? I can venture speculation, but let's figure
that ACT, Aonix, Averstar, RR Software, Green Hills, et alia, are all
thinking about that a whole lot more than I am. What's best for Ada? I think
we agree that its having a good quality kit at an inexpensive price. Cheap
is good and not too steep - but most of all cheap is cheap! :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Jerry Petrey @west.raytheon.com>" <"jdpetrey<NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:3B8282CF.98B0FD28@west.raytheon.com...
>
> I agree Marin.  There are no valid reasons not to publish the prices of
> Ada compilers and tools.  As you have said before, we need a vendor to
> make a complete development environment available at a reasonable price
> to the individual user.  Before Ada can get more accepted in the
> industry,
> more S/W engineers must start using it and one way to get more using it
> is
> to make it available to them in a very usable form and as cheap as
> possible.
> In the long run, you'll increase your sales to the big companies this
> way.
> It is people like us who have a chance to influence our companies to
> make
> the right choices of tools and languages.  I am happy to try out a
> number of
> Ada compilers at home but I sure don't expect to pay $500 to $1000 for
> each of
> them.
>
> My experience with Aonix has not been a good one.  A few years ago, I
> went that
> route of contacting their sales rep for a compiler to evaluate (the
> early version
> of Object Ada).  They made a reasonable price on a consultant's version
> with a
> support contract.  But after a year had passed and I had not received
> any notice
> of renewal of the support, I tried contacting the lady who handled
> this.  Over a
> period of a few weeks, I called dozens of times, left messages when I
> could get
> through at all and never received a return call.  I finally gave up for
> a while
> until I tracked down a way to call her without going through the phone
> mail
> system.  She quickly dismissed all the trouble I had reaching her and
> said since
> my support contract had expired I would have to pay for two years to
> catch up (even
> though there had not been any updates in that last year).
>
> In my previous job at Lockheed using an Aonix Ada compiler we paid an
> outrageous
> price for support which was still not good.
>
> This is not the way for a vendor to build a big customer base in a
> market that
> is (sadly) rather small already.
>
> We need Ada vendors who really care about the long term growth of Ada
> and are
> willing to make commitments to help that growth.  Ada is a language that
> can
> make difference in the quality (and safety) of the software being
> produced
> today but compiler vendors must start taking a long term view and do
> 'the
> right thing' to support this growth.
>
> Jerry
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---
> -- Jerry Petrey
> -- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation, Guidance, & Control
> -- Raytheon Missile Systems          - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
> -- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to
> reply
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Richard Riehle]

Jerry Petrey wrote:

> My experience with Aonix has not been a good one.  [snip, snip ]
>  I tried contacting the lady who handled
> this.  [snip, snip ]
> I called dozens of times, left messages
> and never received a return call.  I finally gave up ...
> I tracked down a way to call her without going through the phone
> system.  She quickly dismissed all the trouble I had reaching her and
> said since
> my support contract had expired I would have to pay for two years to
> catch up (even
> though there had not been any updates in that last year).
>
> In my previous job at Lockheed using an Aonix Ada compiler we paid an
> outrageous
> price for support which was still not good.

This kind of thing seems to be a holdover from the days when Ada compiler
publishers had the DoD over a barrel and could charge whatever the market
would bear and provide minimal support.   It is much like the Microsoft
monopoly position of today.   Now that Ada is not a mandated language, the
Ada compiler publishers must learn how to deal with an open market place.
Some will do this well.  A few are already making some progress.   Others
may still function as little bureaucracies where arrogance toward the client
is a way of life.

My own experience with Aonix has not been quite this bad.   However, I don't
find myself purchasing their products at present.   Before the grand inquisition
that resulted in the sacking of their best Ada people, Aonix was a pretty good
Ada company.   I could always get to someone who knew the answer.  Now,
the Ada people at Aonix have become anonymous disembodied voices on the
telephone, people who seem not to have the enthusiasm or dedication to Ada
we saw in the likes of Dave Wood, Ben Brosgol, or Ed Falis.   In its
transformation
from a company of Ada zealots to a company of employees who happen to
have an Ada product, Aonix seems to have lost its energy.  Perhaps this is not the

case, but it is the impression they are giving to the rest of the Ada community.

There was a time when we would receive email updates about their current
products and successes.   At present, the only Ada companies to consistently
report this kind of thing to the community are ACT and  DDC-I.   Joyce Tokar
continues to do a good job of this.

Perhaps Aonix, having been one of the early adovcates (in its various
incarnations)
of commercializing Ada, has concluded that those efforts were so unsuccessful
that any further effort is not warranted.   It is sad when disenchantment seeps
into
the management pool and pollutes the well of enthusiasm that once ran clear and
deep in a company dedicated to success with its product.   Aonix still has good
products; products that need development and improvement, but still good.  They
also need someone in charge of Ada who has the energy and commitment to
become visible to the Ada community, and to the software community at large, and
make the case for their product without apology.   It is a sad situation when
we, the Ada advocates, have no idea who is leading the charge at one of the most
important Ada companies.   Where is that person hiding?

Richard Riehle
richard@adaworks.com
http://www.adaworks.com

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Adrian Hoe]

Reivilo Snuved <odevuns@iname.JUNK.com> wrote in message news:<st7kvy4p0b.fsf@aonix.fr>...
> "McDoobie" <chris@dont.spam.me> writes:
> [snip]
> > 
> > I'm checking around for a good Ada development environment, and I wouldnt
> > mind picking up a copy of GNAT Pro or the Aonix toolchain. But "contact
> > our sales rep" is irritating as hell.
> 
> NOTE : I am posting this message on behalf of Greg Gicca, Director of Product 
>        Management with Aonix (his newsserver is currently down) 
> 
> Chris,
> 
> We at Aonix have specific published prices and discount policies that
> can not be varied from by a sales person or other employee without
> approval from a VP or higher.  We do not publish prices due to legal
> and country reasons.  The legal aspects tend to be that any price
> published is only valid when published and can change at any time.
> Thus publishing it in a public forum puts out prices that could be
> misleading.  Also a price for a particular country may have
> adjustments due to shipping or other concerns.  Secondly our prices
> for a particular currency are based on the exchange rate at the time
> of sale (quote).  Our fixed price schedule is based on US dollars (we
> have to pick one currency).  The daily price in French Francs, or even
> the Euro will vary.
> 
> When Aonix produces a quote for a particular product or set of
> products it is very common for the purchasing agency to ask for the
> relevant pages from our product catalog that list these prices, and
> discount policies.  We can not vary from the prices or policies as
> stated above.  We in fact "never" want to be the position of having
> one representative quote a different price from another company
> representative, regardless of geographic region or country location
> (taking into account specific country differences, currency, etc.)
> 
> Any price quote you thus receive from Aonix from one individual will
> be the same quote you would get from any other.  Used car type pricing
> tactics are against our (and most other) Ada company policies.  If you
> ask us for a price for a product it will be that published in our
> product catalog.  If you ask for discount policies it will also be
> that published in the product catalog and will clearly show that a
> larger quantity purchase would save money on per product costs.
> 
> The one exception to our publishing prices is the ObjectAda Special
> Edition product.  It is published as being for free as a download from
> or web site, at:
> 
> http://www.aonix.com
> 
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Greg Gicca
> Aonix
> Director of Product Management
> 
> adamark@sd.aonix.no.spam.com


I totally agree with Greg. My company Lexical Integration is Aonix's
distributor and business partner in Malaysia. Local pricing varies
from US pricing and almost from project to project.

But, IMHO, e-mail is a very convenient way to ask for quotes and I
believe vendors will respond to e-mail inquiry almost instantly.

I don't see why and how without publishing the prices on web sites
will deter people from using Ada.

Adrian Hoe

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marc A. Criley]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> 
> Ada vendors,
> 
> Could you please publish price list of your products?
> 
> With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list public,
> any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results in "you
> will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first attempt of
> such sales representative is investigating the depth of my pocket. Usual
> question is "what for you will be using our product?" that generates my
> standard answer: "not your f...g business".

My past experience with two of the major vendors has been:

Rational Apex:  Around '96-97, it was several thousand (US $) per Unix
seat.  I do not know what their current pricing structure is for Unix or
Windows.  Maintenance then was 15% of the licensing fees per year.

ACT GNAT:  ACT does not sell seat licenses of course, they sell support
contracts.  The last price I recall, from 1999, was $12,000 to support
10 developers--which is actually quite competitive with other language
development environments for the high level of service provided.  And on
a project that had at least ten active developers, I wouldn't hesitate
to have an ACT support contract, it'd be stupid not to.  Threads here in
the past have questioned ACT's refusal to market to single developers or
very small shops--the short answer is, it's not the market they're
after.  So don't ask :-)

And to the Ada vendors:  Yes, this is dated information, it's overly
simplistic, it doesn't take into account the specific needs of the
customer or the services provided by the vendor, etc.  I know, the
intent here is just to provide some ballpark figures, you're welcome to
update them.

Marc A. Criley

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[those who know me have no need of my name]

<3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net> divulged:

>Could you please publish price list of your products?
>
>With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list public,
>any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results in "you
>will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first attempt of
>such sales representative is investigating the depth of my pocket. Usual
>question is "what for you will be using our product?" that generates my
>standard answer: "not your f...g business".

i think you'll find that the main reason is that they feel that the bare
price would scare you off.  the rep wants to talk to you about some things,
during which he'll point out just how much ada is worth to your project.
at which point the price is likely to be acceptable, or at least not as
mind boggling.

note: the price is likely to be high, because of the market size if nothing
else.

-- 
okay, have a sig then

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"those who know me have no need of my name" <not-a-real-address@usa.net> wrote in message
news:9lroc412oq7@enews2.newsguy.com...
> <3b7fdb8a_2@news3.prserv.net> divulged:
>
> >Could you please publish price list of your products?
> >
> >With notable exception of R.R. Software that makes the price list public,
> >any attempt to know the cost of tools from other vendors results in "you
> >will be contacted by our sales representative". The very first attempt of
> >such sales representative is investigating the depth of my pocket. Usual
> >question is "what for you will be using our product?" that generates my
> >standard answer: "not your f...g business".
>
> i think you'll find that the main reason is that they feel that the bare
> price would scare you off.  the rep wants to talk to you about some things,
> during which he'll point out just how much ada is worth to your project.
> at which point the price is likely to be acceptable, or at least not as
> mind boggling.

I DON'T want sales rep to teach me software engineering and son't want him
telling me what is good for me. I am mature enough, and he has NO CLUE.
However, when I am starting a project and I am considering a new tool, I want
just a rough estimate what will be the cost. I don't want to call sales rep,
waste his time, create expectations, and have him calling me every 3 days
during next 6 month. I can buy any other tool just visiting web page and
giving them my credit card number. I don't see any reason why Ada
must be an exception.


Ach... By the way, Ada vendors, it happens that some projects are REALLY
small and we have just 1 (yes, one) Ada developer. In such a case we are
not ready to accept the reality that "the minimum number of seats is 5".
We just walk away.... and stay with Java...


A.L

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[those who know me have no need of my name]

<3b8194f3_2@news3.prserv.net> divulged:

>I DON'T want sales rep to teach me software engineering and son't want him
>telling me what is good for me. I am mature enough, and he has NO CLUE.

indeed, yet sales people are still sales people, and they put food on their
tables by selling products.  some companies certainly have seen (or believe
they have seen) a failure to capture market share due to price availability.

i'm with you, publishing the price of a quality ada suite should not scare
off anyone with a serious project, due solely to the number.  now if the
price is outside the budget, even including future projects, then no matter
how much chatter the sales person uses at the end of the day they'll have
lost the sale.

>However, when I am starting a project and I am considering a new tool, I want
>just a rough estimate what will be the cost. I don't want to call sales rep,
>waste his time, create expectations, and have him calling me every 3 days
>during next 6 month. 

not all sales reps are this way.  i would certainly hope that those
companies which don't publish their prices would have a policy against such
behavior.

>I can buy any other tool just visiting web page and
>giving them my credit card number. I don't see any reason why Ada
>must be an exception.

this isn't entirely true.  surely there are a great number of things that a
person can purchase these days via a web page, but there remain quite a
number that cannot.

i can't say that i really understand the kind of rationale that was just
posted by aonix, but then i don't need to understand why they do it.  they
do it, it's their right to do it that way if they like.

>Ach... By the way, Ada vendors, it happens that some projects are REALLY
>small and we have just 1 (yes, one) Ada developer. In such a case we are
>not ready to accept the reality that "the minimum number of seats is 5".
>We just walk away.... and stay with Java...

the ada market share is fairly small.  if these companies want to stay in
business they have to decide how much money they need to get in order to
staff their phones, and phones tend to ring mostly as a function of the
number of sites licensed rather than the number of seats/programmers
involved.  the cost of providing support to 1 site w/20 seats is different
than 20 sites w/1 seat.  to consider it they'd have to raise the price,
perhaps dramatically, for single seat/programmer licenses, and it's likely
(due to market share) that the price is already fairly substantial.  (it is
in all the quotes i've seen.)

-- 
okay, have a sig then

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

"those who know me have no need of my name" <not-a-real-address@usa.net> wrote in message
news:9ls8300bdq@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> >Ach... By the way, Ada vendors, it happens that some projects are REALLY
> >small and we have just 1 (yes, one) Ada developer. In such a case we are
> >not ready to accept the reality that "the minimum number of seats is 5".
> >We just walk away.... and stay with Java...
>
> the ada market share is fairly small.  if these companies want to stay in
> business they have to decide how much money they need to get in order to
> staff their phones, and phones tend to ring mostly as a function of the
> number of sites licensed rather than the number of seats/programmers
> involved.  the cost of providing support to 1 site w/20 seats is different
> than 20 sites w/1 seat.  to consider it they'd have to raise the price,
> perhaps dramatically, for single seat/programmer licenses, and it's likely
> (due to market share) that the price is already fairly substantial.  (it is
> in all the quotes i've seen.)

Yes, clear. No profit is better than small profit. I wish you luck, Ada vendors...
I wish you luck Ada, too...

A.L.

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Randy Brukardt]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote in message <3b81ae82_3@news3.prserv.net>...
>
>Yes, clear. No profit is better than small profit. I wish you luck, Ada
vendors...
>I wish you luck Ada, too...


It's more like a "no profit is better than a small loss". Single-copy
prices either have to be very high, or there is a high probably of more
support costs than the money coming in.

RRS is facing this problem with the support on Claw. Claw is several
times more expensive to support than Janus/Ada is (probably because of
the difference between a strong standard and no standard...). We're
going to have to raise the support prices to the point where it will
really not be accessible to the small project. I hate this, but we can't
leak money just to promote Ada...

                Randy Brukardt
                President
                R.R. Software, Inc.

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Al Christians]

Randy Brukardt wrote:
> 
> It's more like a "no profit is better than a small loss". Single-copy
> prices either have to be very high, or there is a high probably of 
> more  support costs than the money coming in.
> 
> RRS is facing this problem with the support on Claw. Claw is several
> times more expensive to support than Janus/Ada is (probably because of
> the difference between a strong standard and no standard...). We're
> going to have to raise the support prices to the point where it will
> really not be accessible to the small project. I hate this, but we 
> can't leak money just to promote Ada...
> 

It's curious that the high-volume software houses do not give free 
support, last I checked, other than installation support.  They are
happy to give support at $95/call, $95/incident, $4.95/minute or 
whatever.  And, I suppose, most of their customers have no need to
call.  

[Some of the vendors (one of the checkbook/accounting programs, I think)
price the software as a loss leader to make money on the $'s/minute
support calls]

Maybe it takes high-volume to get the product to be reliable enough
regardless of all the variations in conditions of use that prevail 
(ie different configurations of the customers' hardware and software)
so that sales without support is relatively likely to give the customer 
good satisfaction.  And maybe the Ada market is too small to support
that kind of product.  


Al

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

I certainly don't expect anyone to work for free, so vendors are entitled to
charge what they need to in order to provide support. But one would hope
that a given product is a) sufficiently reliable and b) sufficiently
documented so that a low end user can manage to get by without having to
hire a staff of support techs from the vendor.

Consider this: There will always be a certain number of customers for whom
time is of sufficient money that it will pay for them to get full scale
support from the vendor. They want/need training and education to get up to
speed with the tool. They don't want production halted for some minor bug in
the tool that forces them to figure out workarounds. If something isn't
intuitively and immediately obvious, they want a phone number of someone who
can tell them to check that the unit is plugged into the wall and that the
power switch is "on". For that level of support, one would expect to pay
through the nose.

But if the software in question does exactly what it is supposed to do and
what it is supposed to do is clearly documented, and how it does it does not
involve complex and arcane rituals, then your average, low-end user (home
hobyist, etc.) ought to be able to make it work without having to spend
$12,000 a year for customer support. *Maybe* (Maybe!) they might need some
help with an installation, but even this should be a matter of plugging in a
disk and going to town whenever possible. Hence, high reliability, high
quality documentation and intuitive operation are important ways to make a
vendor's product more profitable in a consumer oriented product.

Think about your average home appliance. Most companies provide 800 numbers
you can call to get questions answered about the appliance. They usually
provide a nice, detailed user's manual - usually even way too detailed.
(Don't use this toaster while taking a bath. Don't stick a fork into the
toaster. Don't lick the hot coils on the toaster. Don't bash yourself
repeatedly in the head with the toaster.... - ever looked at the back of a
box of toothpics and seen the instructions there? Its enough to convince you
to build the world an asylum...:-)

Typically, the features on the device match what is customary and usual for
a home appliance - the on/off button is labeled in a common way, the plug
fits a standard socket (usually) the doohickies and thingamabobs are usually
similar to those of other manufacturers - basically an end user can turn it
on and make it work with minimal fuss. Why is all this the case? Can you
imagine how many calls there would be to customer support if the toaster
they sold required you to type at a keyboard "dknbrd -S 5 - s 1"? (Unix-ese
for "Darken Bread, shade = medium (1..10), slices = 1") How long before that
800 number became a 900 number? How long would UnixToaster, Inc. be in
business?

Now the important question: Why does software have to be different from
that? Sure, its more complex than your average toaster, but is that
sufficient excuse for why it can't work reliably enough and intuitively
enough so that the user at home doesn't need a support contract?

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Al Christians" <achrist@easystreet.com> wrote in message
news:3B82AC17.8BF90918@easystreet.com...
>
> Maybe it takes high-volume to get the product to be reliable enough
> regardless of all the variations in conditions of use that prevail
> (ie different configurations of the customers' hardware and software)
> so that sales without support is relatively likely to give the customer
> good satisfaction.  And maybe the Ada market is too small to support
> that kind of product.
>

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[tmoran]

>Maybe it takes high-volume to get the product to be reliable enough
>regardless of all the variations in conditions of use that prevail
>(ie different configurations of the customers' hardware and software)
>so that sales without support is relatively likely to give the customer
>good satisfaction.  And maybe the Ada market is too small to support
>that kind of product.

  It's not just reliability.  CLAW, for instance, captures a major
amount of Windows.  Yes, it's simplified by using Ada constructs, but
even there, not everyone is up to speed on all the Ada 95 techniques
used by CLAW, so that requires explanation.  Then think of the number
and thickness of "Windows Programming" books.  That suggests a massive
level of documentation.  Then consider the FAQs and Q&A in various
forums on programming Windows.  That translates into customer support.
There are many dark and dirty corners lurking in Windows, many, but not
all, of which CLAW knows about and handles.  True, simple things can be
done with simple code and the GUI builder, but it won't be long till a
CLAW user wants something off the well-beaten path, and he may need help
to do it.  If there's a very large base of expertise, customers can help
each other.  CLAW is not, yet at least, at that point, so a lot of
customer support translates directly to demands on time from RR
Software.

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

Most compilers are not sold with seat licenses. Most of them are sold like
Microsoft compilers are sold - single machine licenses ('cause Microsoft
sells most of the compilers! :-) If someone has an Ada development kit
available for - say around $500 for a single PC license and I have 10
developers, then $5000 might not be an unreasonable number. I might want a
volume discount if I propose buying 20, 50, 100 copies of the software (or
any other product, like desks and chairs), but I think it is a reasonable
model to quote a price for a single PC/single user license & worry about the
volume stuff later.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"those who know me have no need of my name" <not-a-real-address@usa.net>
wrote in message news:9ls8300bdq@enews4.newsguy.com...
>
> the ada market share is fairly small.  if these companies want to stay in
> business they have to decide how much money they need to get in order to
> staff their phones, and phones tend to ring mostly as a function of the
> number of sites licensed rather than the number of seats/programmers
> involved.  the cost of providing support to 1 site w/20 seats is different
> than 20 sites w/1 seat.  to consider it they'd have to raise the price,
> perhaps dramatically, for single seat/programmer licenses, and it's likely
> (due to market share) that the price is already fairly substantial.  (it
is
> in all the quotes i've seen.)
>

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Ted Dennison]

In article <9ltq1q$54r$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
>
>Most compilers are not sold with seat licenses. Most of them are sold like
>Microsoft compilers are sold - single machine licenses ('cause Microsoft
>sells most of the compilers! :-) If someone has an Ada development kit
>available for - say around $500 for a single PC license and I have 10

Just a minor nit: The last time I bought VC++, it was licesed to a single
*user*. The license explicitly allows me to install it on every machine I use,
but no-one other than me is to use the software.

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html
          home email - mailto:dennison@telepath.com

Re: Ada vendors and the art of selling used cars

[Marin David Condic]

O.K. It is a nit - I stand corrected. The idea is that you go to your local
CompUSA and buy a copy off the shelf and basically its yours and yours
alone. If you have a team of 5 guys you go buy 5 boxes at CompUSA and each
guy gets one at 5x cost to you.

As long as the price is half-way reasonable, this model works fine. As long
as a company provides some way of getting volume discounts (and maybe
various levels of support?) larger projects can figure out how to make it
work for them.

FWIW, I used to get a quarterly update in the mail with MSVC++ and that was
about the extent of the support. It was also about all I needed. Assuming a
similar Ada product, with a good collection of documentation and a quarterly
update for 1 year that included code revisions and other real changes (not
just some window dressing to make the update look like you're getting
something.) I'd see that as worth $500..$1000 to a serious hobbyist or small
project or startup venture. The answer to customers who want traditional DoD
levels of support is to say "Yeah, sure. We've got that. It just costs
extra. Get out your government Visa card and call 1.900.xxx.yyyy...."
Otherwise, just ship me a product that installs flawlessly and works
properly and has good documentation and I'll be happy to live with it on my
own. (Don't make me call you and fume at you because your stupid, freakin
software won't install or start up and then have you tell me that telephone
support costs extra. :-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:GUug7.9130$2u.65334@www.newsranger.com...
> In article <9ltq1q$54r$1@nh.pace.co.uk>, Marin David Condic says...
> Just a minor nit: The last time I bought VC++, it was licesed to a single
> *user*. The license explicitly allows me to install it on every machine I
use,
> but no-one other than me is to use the software.
>