SIGada Conference

SIGada Conference

[Chris Miller]

Anyone care to post a summary of what went on at this conference.

Anything interesting ???

Chris Miller

Re: SIGada Conference

[Stephen Leake]

chrismiller677@hotmail.com (Chris Miller) writes:

> Anyone care to post a summary of what went on at this conference.
> 
> Anything interesting ???

The most interesting thing was that there are several companies making
money using Ada, and they are all growing :).

I've been more inspired to look into using SPARK to write solid code.

The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a
solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more
silent overloading when overriding was meant.

If you subscribe to Ada Letters, the proceedings should appear in a
few months :).

-- 
-- Stephe

Re: SIGada Conference

[Georg Bauhaus]

Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote:
: 
: The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a
: solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more
: silent overloading when overriding was meant.

Anything new about pre/post conditions?


-- Georg

Re: SIGada Conference

[Marin David Condic]

That can easily be misleading. Its possible that some companies are 
growing by getting a larger share of a shrinking pie. As some companies 
abandon Ada as a business venture, others pick up whatever share they 
may have had and show signs of "Growth" - but it doesn't imply Ada is 
necessarily doing well.

I'd like to see Ada get somewhere, but there needs to be a better metric 
than the business growth of some few companies. Jobs in Ada, new project 
starts in Ada, classes taught in Ada, etc. Any of those would be a beter 
metric - unless you could get total revenues for all companies doing Ada 
business (and even that would miss use of Ada in internal work by big 
companies like Boeing, Lockheed, etc.) In any event, its tough to get 
those metrics so we're still left with perceptions and best guesses. My 
perception is that Ada has been in general on the decline and had better 
do something to excite the world if it wants to be around with any real 
strength in another ten years.

MDC


Stephen Leake wrote:
> 
> The most interesting thing was that there are several companies making
> money using Ada, and they are all growing :).
> 



-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Trying is the first step towards failure."
         --  Homer Simpson

======================================================================

Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference

[Simon Clubley]

In article <3FDF0457.70601@noplace.com>, Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com> writes:
> 
> I'd like to see Ada get somewhere, but there needs to be a better metric 
> than the business growth of some few companies. Jobs in Ada, new project 
> starts in Ada, classes taught in Ada, etc.
> 

If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at
page 52.

The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002 to
June 2003 that specified programming language requirements.

I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues are,
and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that Ada
is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period.

It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent
in May/June 2003.

For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark, and
Pascal is running at around 0.2%.

Simon.

[1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of all
programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint here
may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears to
be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more of
a personal interest...]

-- 
Simon Clubley, clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP       
SCO: Proudly pushing Microsoft down to #2 on the list of most disliked companies

Re: SIGada Conference

[Stephen Leake]

Georg Bauhaus <sb463ba@l1-hrz.uni-duisburg.de> writes:

> Stephen Leake <stephen_leake@acm.org> wrote:
> : 
> : The Ada 200Y features sound fun, too; aggregates for limited types, a
> : solution for mutually recursive types, Java-style interfaces, no more
> : silent overloading when overriding was meant.
> 
> Anything new about pre/post conditions?

Nope. I think 'pragma Assert' will be standardized, but that's about it.



-- 
-- Stephe

Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference

[Marin David Condic]

My gut reaction based on prior searches of Monster, et alia, would make 
5% sound optimistic. It would also likely be *very* location sensitive 
since Ada has traditionally been employed largely with defense 
contractors and they're not spread across the U.S. evenly like peanut 
butter.

But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%. 
Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill 
set will they likely want to have in order to face that market? When 
companies start development of software related tools, will they be 
looking to satisfy the 5% market or the 50% market?

This has the potential to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, so one should 
not look at it as doom and gloom, but rather as a warning. Unless Ada 
starts getting bigger numbers, all the incentives are to go with 
something else. People will go with a niche language if they think it is 
on the way *UP*, but not if it appears to be on the way *DOWN*. Hence, 
Ada needs to do something to excite the potential user community and 
create the impression of going somewhere *new* so it starts a "get on 
board" trend.

MDC

Simon Clubley wrote:
> 
> 
> If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at
> page 52.
> 
> The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002 to
> June 2003 that specified programming language requirements.
> 
> I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues are,
> and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that Ada
> is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period.
> 
> It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent
> in May/June 2003.
> 
> For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark, and
> Pascal is running at around 0.2%.
> 
> Simon.
> 
> [1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of all
> programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint here
> may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears to
> be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more of
> a personal interest...]
> 


-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Trying is the first step towards failure."
         --  Homer Simpson

======================================================================

Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference

[tmoran]

> But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%.
> Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill
> set will they likely want to have in order to face that market?
   When all C++ work is done in Bangalore, Ada could inherit the
US programming market. ;)

Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference

[Steve]

Do you realize you're trashing the language with your statements?
Taking news that might be encouraging to Ada enthusiasts (the people you're
likely to find on this group) and saying it's garbage.  It doesn't help.

Steve
(The Duck)

"Marin David Condic" <nobody@noplace.com> wrote in message
news:3FE05B88.1070701@noplace.com...
> My gut reaction based on prior searches of Monster, et alia, would make
> 5% sound optimistic. It would also likely be *very* location sensitive
> since Ada has traditionally been employed largely with defense
> contractors and they're not spread across the U.S. evenly like peanut
> butter.
>
> But assume for a moment that this is true. C++ gets 50% and Ada gets 5%.
> Students exiting college are going to be looking for jobs. What skill
> set will they likely want to have in order to face that market? When
> companies start development of software related tools, will they be
> looking to satisfy the 5% market or the 50% market?
>
> This has the potential to be a self-fulfilling prophecy, so one should
> not look at it as doom and gloom, but rather as a warning. Unless Ada
> starts getting bigger numbers, all the incentives are to go with
> something else. People will go with a niche language if they think it is
> on the way *UP*, but not if it appears to be on the way *DOWN*. Hence,
> Ada needs to do something to excite the potential user community and
> create the impression of going somewhere *new* so it starts a "get on
> board" trend.
>
> MDC
>
> Simon Clubley wrote:
> >
> >
> > If you have a copy of Dr Dobb's Journal for October 2003, have a look at
> > page 52.
> >
> > The author has done an analysis of job offers for the period July 2002
to
> > June 2003 that specified programming language requirements.
> >
> > I won't post the table (because I'm not sure what the copyright issues
are,
> > and anyway it's a detailed table), but the author's table claims[1] that
Ada
> > is running around the 5% mark (+/- 1%) for much of that period.
> >
> > It was interesting to note however that it increased a couple of percent
> > in May/June 2003.
> >
> > For comparison C++ is running at around the 50% (+/- several %) mark,
and
> > Pascal is running at around 0.2%.
> >
> > Simon.
> >
> > [1] I use "claims" because I am finding it hard to believe that 5% of
all
> > programming jobs specify Ada, however nice that would be. My viewpoint
here
> > may be tainted by the fact that I am in the UK, and closer to 0% appears
to
> > be a more accurate figure here. [Fortunately, my interest in Ada is more
of
> > a personal interest...]
> >
>
>
> -- 
> ======================================================================
> Marin David Condic
> I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
> My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm
>
> Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
>                     c   n   i       c   .   r
>
>      "Trying is the first step towards failure."
>          --  Homer Simpson
>
> ======================================================================
>

Re: Ada Job Market, Was: Re: SIGada Conference

[Marin David Condic]

We will not help Ada by deluding ourselves into thinking everything is 
just fine. Seeing a handful of companies experiencing some growth - 
while good for those companies - doesn't imply that Ada is on a nice, 
healthy, upward spiral. If we want to live in a rainbow, gumdrop, pastel 
unicorn, sugar-sweet, fairy-story land, then we can believe that Ada is 
doing just great and will be around and growing for years to come and 
nothing really needs to be done.

OTOH, we could get serious about what is happening in industry and 
understand that the bulk of the software population sees Ada as 
something old and beyond its useful life and not to be taken seriously 
for the future. Given that understanding of reality, we might want to 
*save* Ada by doing something that would create a "New and Revitalized" 
impression of the language. Give Ada some major new capabilities that 
might actually reverse that impression people have of it being over the 
hill.

MDC


Steve wrote:
> Do you realize you're trashing the language with your statements?
> Taking news that might be encouraging to Ada enthusiasts (the people you're
> likely to find on this group) and saying it's garbage.  It doesn't help.
> 
> Steve
> (The Duck)
> 

-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Trying is the first step towards failure."
         --  Homer Simpson

======================================================================