Re: Clause "with and use"

[Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com>]

It seems you have confused my point about marketing with some point 
about language selection. I was trying to observe that the keepers of 
Ada (or any other language) are managing a *product* they expect to 
persuade people to use. Anyone selling a *product* to a *customer* has 
to be terribly concerned with giving the customer what they want as best 
they can. Its the job of marketing to figure that out.

You seem to be focusing in on a manager *selecting* some programming 
language - possibly for all sorts of reasons that are highly 
unscientific. This is the bozo that the marketing guys have to try to 
understand and try to tailor the product to his needs. Sometimes, what 
persuades the manager-bozo is some sort of technical superiority. 
Sometimes it has to do with costs, project demands, etc. Sometimes its 
the "Everybody else is using it" syndrome - which, BTW, is a *really* 
legitimate argument for a large variety of reasons. But that manager has 
needs and the guy who comes to market with him in mind and finds out how 
to address his needs is going to succeed.

On the "Everyone else is doing it" syndrome (which I think can be a good 
reason, but we can debate that) - don't worry if that is good or bad. 
Accept it as *reality* and figure out how to use it. If you had 
"Everybody else is using Ada for XYZ type of things" working in your 
favor, that gives you a sales pitch to the manager concerned with XYZ, 
doesn't it? Get "everybody else" using Ada and some of those big 
commercial and government ventures will start coming back to Ada.

MDC


Vinzent 'Gadget' Hoefler wrote:
> Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> 
>>There isn't anything wrong with "marketing" per se. It serves a useful 
>>purpose. But it isn't done by some manager getting into his head that 
>>"XYZ is what the public will love, so let's make our product have XYZ in 
>>it..."
> 
> 
> Well, actually that is the impression I get when it boils down to what
> tools (programming languages) someone should use. "The others use
> Java? So let's use it, too. It must be good."
> 
> Well, the H&R-people are similar, instead of asking you "Are you able
> to build and maintain a large software-system" they ask you "Do you
> know $LANGUAGE"? This is as much idiotic as asking someone "Do you
> have at least five years experience with the medium-size-hammer from
> $BRANDNAME?" instead of asking "Are able to simply put a nail into the
> wall?"
> 
> Answer_1: "Oh yes, I have been trying to put a nail into the wall with
> that hammer for seven years. Now still every seconds nail gets bended,
> but that doesn't matter, I have enough nails."
> 
> Answer_2: "Well, not with that particular thing, but I did that with
> the small-sized one, it better fits the job to be done. But now I know
> how to handle that I think I can quickly learn how to handle the one
> you want me to use."
> 
> Guess, who gets hired.
> 
> 
>>Marketing is done with research and statistics, among other 
>>tools. You don't *assume* that your potential customers want XYZ - you 
>>go find out for sure what they want by asking them.
> 
> 
> Quite true. If you were talking about the ideal approach, I even would
> agree with you. But even then: the decision to use a programming
> language has seldom to do with *any* of that.
> 
> 
>>A fair approach would be to have a survey of some sample set of 
>>C/C++/Java users who had some familiarity with Ada
> 
> 
> It might be hard to find enough people so one could claim statistical
> significance. Literally spoken, almost every idiot out there on the
> street claims to have knowledge of C/C++/Java but if you ask them
> about Ada the best response I'd ever get was something like "oh that's
> the language from the eighties?" ... The same guy told me that Jython
> is something similar and I would like it, because it would fit my
> needs for a programming language like Ada. Huh? WTF is he talking
> about?
> 
> 
>>Guesswork is interesting in a newsgroup, but deadly when trying to make 
>>major decisions about a product in a business environment.
> 
> 
> Yes. But reality says, hell a *lot* of (especially software) projects
> just went dead, so there might be a lot of guesswork involved (either
> in the requirements, the schedule, ...).
> 
> 
>>You don't 
>>guess at what is going to make your existing customers happy.
> 
> 
> Well, the customer usually wants a product and doesn't care about the
> tool you used to develop the product with. But the customer will
> probably care about the final price, so you should be able to make a
> good decision to keep this price low. And usually you shouldn't care
> about some initial costs, you should look further and see what's
> better in the long run. Well, statistically I still have some years of
> my life left to actually find a manager who really thinks this way, so
> I just keep my hope. :->
> 
> These days I still wonder why all my deadlines are already scheduled
> for yesterday. Even those for the projects which didn't even start
> yet. ;-)
> 
> 
>>You also don't guess about what would attract new business from 
>>potential customers. You ask them what they'd want in your product and 
>>try to address the highest priorities they set.
> 
> 
> Yes. But I'd assume that the decision which tools you use to be able
> to actually deliver the product to the customer has at least
> *something* to do with management, hasn't it? Well, I think it should.
> Unfortunately, a bunch of managers ouside there seem to have no clue
> of *what* they are managing.
> 
> 
>>To do otherwise will have you bankrupt very quickly.
> 
> 
> Indeed. :->
> 
> 
> Vinzent.


-- 
======================================================================
Marin David Condic
I work for: http://www.belcan.com/
My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm

Send Replies To: m   o   d   c @ a   m   o   g
                    c   n   i       c   .   r

     "Trying is the first step towards failure."
         --  Homer Simpson

======================================================================