Re: Is the Writing on the Wall for Ada?

[Marin David Condic <nobody@noplace.com>]

chris wrote:
> 
> 
> Who wants some kind of std lib then?  What do you want of one?
> 
I've argued that point here in numerous other threads. Just because 
something isn't in the ARM doesn't mean it isn't "Standard". Putting it 
in the ARM enslaves it to a *TEN YEAR* revision cycle. You want to wait 
ten years to see your pet feature added to the library? Other languages 
have and will continue to have "standard" libraries without waving them 
past ISO - Java comes to mind - so we're not creating a revolution here. 
There are lots of reasons to keep it out of the ARM, but have it blessed 
by the ARG and supplied by all the vendors.



> 
> But it could take years to get one, that's no good if you need something 
> *now*!
> 
Can't help you there. At this time, nothing exists. You've got to start 
from somewhere. I think *something* could get produced relatively 
quickly if the will was there. Say less than a year to get a first 
release? But a library by its nature is never "done" so you'd have to 
accept that not everything you want is going to be there in a timespan 
you like.



> 
> 
> It's not faster, easier or cheaper to develop the apps I want right 
> *now*.  They might end up better in the end, but it takes *much* more 
> time and involves moderate levels of difficulty.  The areas where it 
> takes more time and is more difficult are the libraries!  Putting apps 
> together is not trivial, but it's certainly easier than creating 
> bindings and libraries with good abstractions and the app itself.
> 
> You're right in that Ada may have more to offer in future, but it 
> doesn't now!  IMO it offers more in some ways but once you actually want 
> to do some general purpose task it doesn't.  It's aimed at specialists, 
> not general sw development.
> 

This is why I've expressed some sense of urgency in my various rants on 
the subject. Every day you don't have a library is another day for 
someone to say "I've got to commit to some tools today and Ada isn't in 
the short list because it lacks what I need."



> 
> That's good for the new users, but what about me?  I'm stuck creating 
> bindings to libs that I could use straight away in C/C++!  I'm stuck 
> creating libraries and tools and not programming the main application!
> 

I've also said that bindings are not an answer. Why use Ada then? Just 
use the native language of the tools you've got. This is a perfect 
example backing up claims I've made here in the past. If Language X 
comes with a library and Language Y doesn't, but can bind to X's 
library, who wants to use Y? Its too much extra effort. And trying to 
build the library for Y from the ground up puts you behind schedule in 
the ever popular Time To Market game. That's why Ada needs to find as 
many ways as it possibly can to provide lots of leverage right out of 
the box. The competition does. You snooze. You lose.



> 
> 
> I didn't say that.  I said it was a good thing to port to .Net, and 
> that's all.  It's good because you get access to a lot of sw.
> 
> 
Sure, but you still need to prioritize. Time was invented to keep 
everything from happening all at once.


> 
> 
> People have already ported to .Net with A#.
> 
So there you go. You've got *something* - just not everything.


> 
> It's attractive to me in the domains I'm interested in but already I'm 
> frustrated binding to things.  Everytime I want to do something thing 
> either exist but I can't find it or doesn't fit with other sw or it 
> doesn't exist at all.
> 
Attractive from a "language" sense, but not from a "project" sense. "I 
really like Ada better than C++, but with C++ I get 2/3 of my 
development work done for me by virtue of existing libraries, etc., so 
Ada is a non-starter..." I've made this observation more than once too.

The world isn't perfect and it never will be. All we can do is try to 
push it in the right direction.

MDC



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Marin David Condic
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