From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.4 (2020-01-24) on polar.synack.me X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no version=3.4.4 X-Google-Language: ENGLISH,ASCII-7-bit X-Google-Thread: 103376,1116ece181be1aea X-Google-Attributes: gid103376,public X-Google-ArrivalTime: 2003-10-04 15:42:03 PST Path: archiver1.google.com!news2.google.com!sn-xit-03!sn-xit-01!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-09!supernews.com!pd2nf1so.cg.shawcable.net!residential.shaw.ca!sjc70.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.com!elnk-nf2-pas!newsfeed.earthlink.net!stamper.news.pas.earthlink.net!stamper.news.atl.earthlink.net!newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F7F432A.2070108@noplace.com> From: Marin David Condic User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.0.1) Gecko/20020823 Netscape/7.0 (OEM-HPQ-PRS1C03) X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada Subject: Re: Is the Writing on the Wall for Ada? References: <3F7E01EB.8090400@noplace.com> <3F7EC895.8010507@noplace.com> <9JAfb.6590$QH3.498@newsfep4-winn.server.ntli.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 22:01:35 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 209.165.1.97 X-Complaints-To: abuse@earthlink.net X-Trace: newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net 1065304895 209.165.1.97 (Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:01:35 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 04 Oct 2003 15:01:35 PDT Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net Xref: archiver1.google.com comp.lang.ada:237 Date: 2003-10-04T22:01:35+00:00 List-Id: chris wrote: > > > Who wants some kind of std lib then? What do you want of one? > I've argued that point here in numerous other threads. Just because something isn't in the ARM doesn't mean it isn't "Standard". Putting it in the ARM enslaves it to a *TEN YEAR* revision cycle. You want to wait ten years to see your pet feature added to the library? Other languages have and will continue to have "standard" libraries without waving them past ISO - Java comes to mind - so we're not creating a revolution here. There are lots of reasons to keep it out of the ARM, but have it blessed by the ARG and supplied by all the vendors. > > But it could take years to get one, that's no good if you need something > *now*! > Can't help you there. At this time, nothing exists. You've got to start from somewhere. I think *something* could get produced relatively quickly if the will was there. Say less than a year to get a first release? But a library by its nature is never "done" so you'd have to accept that not everything you want is going to be there in a timespan you like. > > > It's not faster, easier or cheaper to develop the apps I want right > *now*. They might end up better in the end, but it takes *much* more > time and involves moderate levels of difficulty. The areas where it > takes more time and is more difficult are the libraries! Putting apps > together is not trivial, but it's certainly easier than creating > bindings and libraries with good abstractions and the app itself. > > You're right in that Ada may have more to offer in future, but it > doesn't now! IMO it offers more in some ways but once you actually want > to do some general purpose task it doesn't. It's aimed at specialists, > not general sw development. > This is why I've expressed some sense of urgency in my various rants on the subject. Every day you don't have a library is another day for someone to say "I've got to commit to some tools today and Ada isn't in the short list because it lacks what I need." > > That's good for the new users, but what about me? I'm stuck creating > bindings to libs that I could use straight away in C/C++! I'm stuck > creating libraries and tools and not programming the main application! > I've also said that bindings are not an answer. Why use Ada then? Just use the native language of the tools you've got. This is a perfect example backing up claims I've made here in the past. If Language X comes with a library and Language Y doesn't, but can bind to X's library, who wants to use Y? Its too much extra effort. And trying to build the library for Y from the ground up puts you behind schedule in the ever popular Time To Market game. That's why Ada needs to find as many ways as it possibly can to provide lots of leverage right out of the box. The competition does. You snooze. You lose. > > > I didn't say that. I said it was a good thing to port to .Net, and > that's all. It's good because you get access to a lot of sw. > > Sure, but you still need to prioritize. Time was invented to keep everything from happening all at once. > > > People have already ported to .Net with A#. > So there you go. You've got *something* - just not everything. > > It's attractive to me in the domains I'm interested in but already I'm > frustrated binding to things. Everytime I want to do something thing > either exist but I can't find it or doesn't fit with other sw or it > doesn't exist at all. > Attractive from a "language" sense, but not from a "project" sense. "I really like Ada better than C++, but with C++ I get 2/3 of my development work done for me by virtue of existing libraries, etc., so Ada is a non-starter..." I've made this observation more than once too. The world isn't perfect and it never will be. All we can do is try to push it in the right direction. MDC -- ====================================================================== Marin David Condic I work for: http://www.belcan.com/ My project is: http://www.jsf.mil/NSFrames.htm Send Replies To: m c o n d i c @ a c m . o r g "All reformers, however strict their social conscience, live in houses just as big as they can pay for." --Logan Pearsall Smith ======================================================================