F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dale Stanbrough]

There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.

Dale

-- 
dstanbro@spam.o.matic.bigpond.net.au

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Robert Love]

In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale 
Stanbrough  wrote:
> There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
> If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
> it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.

I was going to ask about this.  If I remember, the new code is in C++ 
and the legacy stuff is Ada.  I don't know percentages, or if there will 
be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed.

Yes, I know that you can do poor software engineering in any language 
but it would be interesting to see what the real root caueses are and if 
other languages or methodologies would've preveneted them.

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Richard Riehle]

Robert Love wrote:

> In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale
> Stanbrough  wrote:
> > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
> > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
> > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.
>
> I was going to ask about this.  If I remember, the new code is in C++
> and the legacy stuff is Ada.  I don't know percentages, or if there will
> be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed.

1) JSF is scheduled to be predominantly C++ and C.  Ada will be used
    for some systems.

2) Raptor uses a lot of Ada as well as other languages.

3) While Ada may be better suited to the  development of military and
     commercial avionics and other safety-critical software, the development

     is still carried out by fallible humans.   A  good tool will help, but
the
     old adage, "A fool with a tool is still a fool" continues to hold true.

4) The complexity of both JSF and Raptor exceeds anything previously
     attempted.  Large, complex projects that follow the "grand design"
     process are likely to have  a huge number of defects simply because
     of their using "grand design."

5) While I believe Ada scales up better than C++ in this kind of system,
there
     are ways that skilled developers can use a limited version of C++ to
achieve
     a modesly satisfactory result.   Unfortunately, I have little
confidence that
     those developers will limit themselves to only those aspects of C++
that
     are safe.   The temptation to do otherwise is too great.

6)  When a system written in Ada does fail, we must be honest enough to
admit
      that it was created in Ada.  All the excuses we make sound like
excuses. I
      have seen excellent projects writtten in Ada -- other Ada projects
that
     would, in the words of a mythical specials forces colonel,
     "make a billy goat puke."

7)  Finally, I do believe that, all other things being equal, a programming
team has
     a greater probability of success using Ada than C++ or other
alternatives.

Richard Riehle

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Richard Riehle wrote:
> 
> Robert Love wrote:
> 
> > In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale
> > Stanbrough  wrote:
> > > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
> > > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
> > > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.
> >
> > I was going to ask about this.  If I remember, the new code is in C++
> > and the legacy stuff is Ada.  I don't know percentages, or if there will
> > be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed.
> 
> 1) JSF is scheduled to be predominantly C++ and C.  Ada will be used
>     for some systems.
> 
> 2) Raptor uses a lot of Ada as well as other languages.
> 
> 3) While Ada may be better suited to the  development of military and
>      commercial avionics and other safety-critical software, the development
> 
>      is still carried out by fallible humans.   A  good tool will help, but
> the
>      old adage, "A fool with a tool is still a fool" continues to hold true.
> 
> 4) The complexity of both JSF and Raptor exceeds anything previously
>      attempted.  Large, complex projects that follow the "grand design"
>      process are likely to have  a huge number of defects simply because
>      of their using "grand design."
> 
> 5) While I believe Ada scales up better than C++ in this kind of system,
> there
>      are ways that skilled developers can use a limited version of C++ to
> achieve
>      a modesly satisfactory result.   Unfortunately, I have little
> confidence that
>      those developers will limit themselves to only those aspects of C++
> that
>      are safe.   The temptation to do otherwise is too great.
> 
> 6)  When a system written in Ada does fail, we must be honest enough to
> admit
>       that it was created in Ada.  All the excuses we make sound like
> excuses. I
>       have seen excellent projects writtten in Ada -- other Ada projects
> that
>      would, in the words of a mythical specials forces colonel,
>      "make a billy goat puke."
> 
> 7)  Finally, I do believe that, all other things being equal, a programming
> team has
>      a greater probability of success using Ada than C++ or other
> alternatives.
> 
> Richard Riehle

It's bad (for me and Lithuania ;-) if USA will have planes that need
reboots..

What,this F22's autopilot are really big program?
What's it does? Some kind of AI?
To fly from waypoint to waypoint and aim missiles not a very big program
is needed,my non-speciallist's imo.

-- 
-
http://dmytrylavrov.narod.ru

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Robert Love wrote:
>
> In <MrNoSpam-4A654D.12114802082003@news-server.bigpond.net.au> Dale
> Stanbrough  wrote:
> > There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
> > If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
> > it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.
>
> I was going to ask about this.  If I remember, the new code is in C++

Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22
raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane?  Military avionics in C++?

Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer
operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-).

> and the legacy stuff is Ada.  I don't know percentages, or if there will
> be a public report on what software is causing the reboots to be needed.

What? Reboots?????????????
"Please Re-Takeoff your plane by pressing fire,eject,and self-explode
buttons." ;)

>
> Yes, I know that you can do poor software engineering
Ohh yes,i can do and they can too.If i work for ManyMoney-Soft company.

> in any language
> but it would be interesting to see what the real root caueses are and if
> other languages or methodologies would've preveneted them.
There is 2 reasons why c++ is bad in this case:
1:instability by nature(even if no leaks,heap fragmentation,and
inpossible defragmentation),
2:poor programmers.
IMO,
C++ are so widely used mainly because it's popular and simpler(and
lesser cost) to find "experienced" programmer(that newer programmed in
non-c<x>  language,and can't learn different ones).


Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak
in C++.
"Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really.

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Wojtek Narczynski]

Dmytry,

You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to
team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating
"(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in
assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written
in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for
Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of
the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high.
(...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more
about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in
lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including
me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for
russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is
publically available about this.

Regards,
Wojtek

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Wojtek Narczynski wrote:
> 
> Dmytry,
> 
> You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to
> team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating
> "(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in
> assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written
> in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for
> Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of
> the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high.
> (...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more
> about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in
> lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including
> me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for
> russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is
> publically available about this.
> 
> Regards,
> Wojtek

I really don't know what soft was used. I'm does not work,worked,and
newer will work for russian gov.I'm was born in Lietuva.

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Alexander Kopilovitch]

Wojtek Narczynski) wrote:
> ... I guess many people, definitely including
> me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for
> russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is
> publically available about this.

Well, although I certainly don't know anything concrete about Soviet/Russian
space programmes (thanks God -;) and their software, nevertheless with
indirect information from many different sources I'm sure that most of the
software (especially before 1970) was created using assemblers, and probably 
often quite rudimentary assemblers... it is even quite possible that some part
of the software was created directly in machine code, that is, without any
assembler.
  Note that the Soviet military and space computers those times were
incompatible with Western computers, and there were very few programmers
skilled enough for creating good compilers (decade of calling cybernetics
"a prostitute for imperialism" had significant consequences). At the same time
there were plenty of good mathematicians. So, perhaps, good mathematics and
near-perfect algorithms compensated for hardships and inefficiency of assembly
(and octal code) programming and debugging. 



Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia

RE: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[rleif]

The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
the US DoD is using C++ and Java. This type of situation has occurred
before. The German Army very effectively used the tank tactics published by
General Charles de Gaulle. Billy Mitchell invented the aircraft carrier and
the Japanese proved that they worked.

Bob Leif
Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
Email rleif@rleif.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wojtek Narczynski [mailto:wojtek@power.com.pl] 
Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 5:43 AM
To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org
Subject: Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

Dmytry,

You may not be 100% correct about this. If you were also subscribed to
team-ada@acm.org you could have read a post from Roger Racine stating
"(...) My company wrote the software for the Apollo program, in
assembly code. Our country's strategic missiles have software written
in assembly code. I firmly believe that both those systems had (for
Apollo) and have (for our missiles) very few defects. But the cost of
the analysis and testing for both of those programs were -quite- high.
(...)" (I hope RR wouldn't mind getting cited). So it is really more
about costs. Companies that work for the gov't are not interesting in
lowering those costs. But I guess many people, definitely including
me, would love to hear what has been used to create software for
russian space programmes and aircrafts. Little information is
publically available about this.

Regards,
Wojtek

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Hyman Rosen]

rleif wrote:
> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
> the US DoD is using C++ and Java.

Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students
and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces
of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-)

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Vinzent Hoefler]

Hyman Rosen wrote:

>rleif wrote:
>> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
>> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
>> the US DoD is using C++ and Java.
>
>Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students
>and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces
>of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-)

You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the
working class. ;-)


Vinzent.

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Hyman Rosen]

Vinzent Hoefler wrote:
> You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the
> working class. ;-)

Shhh! We're trying to sell them the rope they're going to hang us with :-)

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:30:28 +0200, Vinzent Hoefler
<ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote:

>Hyman Rosen wrote:
>
>>rleif wrote:
>>> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
>>> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
>>> the US DoD is using C++ and Java.
>>
>>Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students
>>and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces
>>of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-)
>
>You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the
>working class. ;-)

The working class and its ruling party have dismissed
pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-))

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:30:28 +0200, Vinzent Hoefler
> <ada.rocks@jlfencey.com> wrote:
> 
> >Hyman Rosen wrote:
> >
> >>rleif wrote:
> >>> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
> >>> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
> >>> the US DoD is using C++ and Java.
> >>
> >>Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students
> >>and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces
> >>of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-)
> >
> >You underestimate the power of uhmm, ahh, the creativity of the
> >working class. ;-)
> 
> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed
> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-))
THANKS GOD!!!!!!!!!
and for genetics too!

> 
> ---
> Regards,
> Dmitry Kazakov
> www.dmitry-kazakov.de

-- 
-
http://dmytrylavrov.narod.ru

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Alexander Kopilovitch]

Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote 

> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed
> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-))

Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of
automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters
for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence.


Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmitry A. Kazakov]

On 5 Aug 2003 15:04:06 -0700, aek@vib.usr.pu.ru (Alexander
Kopilovitch) wrote:

>Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote 
>
>> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed
>> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-))
>
>Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of
>automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters
>for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence.

Surely technical issues never matter for the "management" class.
Managers make *political* decisions. Arguments could be "it is very
important to our business" or "it is good for our class struggle", but
never technical. This is a taboo.

---
Regards,
Dmitry Kazakov
www.dmitry-kazakov.de

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Dmitry A. Kazakov wrote:
> 
> On 5 Aug 2003 15:04:06 -0700, aek@vib.usr.pu.ru (Alexander
> Kopilovitch) wrote:
> 
> >Dmitry A. Kazakov <mailbox@dmitry-kazakov.de> wrote
> >
> >> The working class and its ruling party have dismissed
> >> pseudo-scientific cybernetics! (:-))
> >
> >Note, though, that at the same time they easily accepted the "theory of
> >automatic control". So, it was the set of popular paradigms that matters
> >for that dismission (and even prosecution), not the technical essence.
> 
> Surely technical issues never matter for the "management" class.
> Managers make *political* decisions. Arguments could be "it is very
> important to our business" or "it is good for our class struggle", but
> never technical. This is a taboo.
> 
> ---
> Regards,
> Dmitry Kazakov
> www.dmitry-kazakov.de

IMO,

"socialism" without democratic is very bad type of exploatation of
working class by non-working class..
And these "USSRism" have nothing with socialism.Any time when someone
want to implement cosialism,result is pre-capitalistic
feodalism.(derived from modern materialism ;-)))
Socialistic Revolution was caused mainly because there was a supply
problems by phisical reasons at 1917,no bread in St.Peterburg.
Farmers(real working class) wasn't wanted revolution.But farmers hadn't
guns.

Of course, if for example, imperator is more despotic,and revolution is
stopped,it's does not helps against revolution in future.
IMO,Only one thing may stop these revolution(when it's started):if ALL
classes have guns to protect interests.But it's "rope to hang us" for
imperator.

Sorry for "out of subject flood"

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Georg Bauhaus]

Hyman Rosen <hyrosen@mail.com> wrote:
: rleif wrote:
:> The Chinese programs will also be of interest. At present, any enemy of the
:> US can download GNAT, which is a capable of high reliability software and
:> the US DoD is using C++ and Java.
: 
: Nonsense! The publicly available version is suitable for students
: and for demonstration purposes, but in order to defeat the forces
: of capitalism, only the ACT supported version will do :-)

Of course, according to the theory, there is no need to
defeat the forces of capitalism. If only Uljanov had known...

So, happy coding with GNAT.

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Alexander Kopilovitch]

Dmytry Lavrov <m31415@mail.ru> wrote:

> > If I remember, the new code is in C++
>
>Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22
>raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane?  Military avionics in C++?
>
>Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer
>operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-).

You don't understand the stategical gain: a potential enemy certainly will
copy the technology, believing that the world leader's technology must be
superior. But that potential enemy will not allocate such huge resources for
reviewing, verification and testing as the leader will do. Therefore the
enemy's military airplanes will have more bugs in their avionics and thus
will be inferior - just what is needed. Remember, that military airplane
need not be best possible - it is enough for it to be significantly better
than enemy's airplane. It is the difference that matters there, so you should
try to maximize it.

-;) , if you wish.

> Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak in C++.
> "Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really.

Well, memory leaks and bad pointers in the brains of some people still are
much more significant dangers for civilization than any C++ (and even Java -;)
software.



Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Dmytry Lavrov]

Alexander Kopilovitch wrote:
> 
> Dmytry Lavrov <m31415@mail.ru> wrote:
> 
> > > If I remember, the new code is in C++
> >
> >Really? I'm understanding right? It's not about Novalogic game F22
> >raptor? It's F22 raptor military airplane?  Military avionics in C++?
> >
> >Heh,our MIGS will not shot it : it will fall due to bad pointer
> >operation or memory leak, without any shot ;-).
> 
> You don't understand the stategical gain: a potential enemy certainly will
> copy the technology, believing that the world leader's technology must be
> superior. But that potential enemy will not allocate such huge resources for
> reviewing, verification and testing as the leader will do. Therefore the
> enemy's military airplanes will have more bugs in their avionics and thus
> will be inferior - just what is needed. Remember, that military airplane
> need not be best possible - it is enough for it to be significantly better
> than enemy's airplane. It is the difference that matters there, so you should
> try to maximize it.
> 
> -;) , if you wish.
> 
> > Bad side of things that next step is nuclear war caused by memory leak in C++.
> > "Please reboot your civilisation ..." .Really.
> 
> Well, memory leaks and bad pointers in the brains of some people still are
> much more significant dangers for civilization than any C++ (and even Java -;)
> software.

Yes...of course ;-)
i think if c++ will be used in nuclear missiles launch center,it's
result of bad pointers in managers brains.

> 
> Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
> Saint-Petersburg
> Russia

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[tmoran]

>i think if c++ will be used in nuclear missiles launch center,it's
>result of bad pointers in managers brains.
  Programmers tend to be smart and try very hard to be logical and still
have an error rate of x/SLOC.  Mathematicians try *really* hard to create
logically correct proofs, yet a published result is still sometimes found
to be incorrect.  Is there any reason to believe that decision makers,
managers, military officers, politicians or any other group has a
substantially lower error rate?

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Alexander Kopilovitch]

tmoran@acm.org wrote:

>   Programmers tend to be smart and try very hard to be logical and still
> have an error rate of x/SLOC.  Mathematicians try *really* hard to create
> logically correct proofs, yet a published result is still sometimes found
> to be incorrect.  Is there any reason to believe that decision makers,
> managers, military officers, politicians or any other group has a
> substantially lower error rate?

Generally yes, one may have such a reason: members of the latter group quite
often are backed with a staff of aids and/or advisors of various kind.

Then, the notion of an error for all 3 metioned groups is different. It may
surprise you, but even for mathematicians this is not always simple: for example
consider Euler's claim that the sum of all natural numbers is equal to (-1/12).
Was that an error? What seems a nonsense in 18th century and clearly an error
in 19th century, appeared a brilliant prophecy in 20th century. Well, it is true
that such a case is very rare in mathematics; but for decision makers, magagers,
politicians and even for military officers this isn't so rare: explicit decision
may seem obviously wrong, but its consequences appear surprisingly good - so,
was there really an error?

Finally, what really matters here is not errors themselves, but excuses
for the members of the latter group. Excuses not only for the front-line
error-makers, and even not for their staff members, but most surely for their
"human programmers" - those who educated them, drilled them and consulted them.



Alexander Kopilovitch                      aek@vib.usr.pu.ru
Saint-Petersburg
Russia

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[Adrian Hoe]

Dale Stanbrough wrote:

> There's been a mention of the F22 Raptor over on slashdot.org.
> If anyone knows about the programming that has gone into this
> it might be worthwhile posting some follow up info.
> 
> Dale
> 



The Chinese new generation jet fighter rolled out recently in Cheng-du 
has its fly-by-wire and combat and target management systems developed 
in Ada. This magnificent Super 7 (formerly known as FC 1) has many 
modern architectures including software.

Adrian Hoe

Re: F22 Raptor in slashdot.org

[sk]

rleif@cox.net:
 > ... Billy Mitchell invented the aircraft carrier ...

For a different view on aircraft carrier evolution, visit

http://www.history.navy.mil/branches/car-toc.htm


-- 
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