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From: "Robert I. Eachus" <rieachus@attbi.com>
Subject: Re: Ariane5 FAQ
Date: Tue, 29 Jul 2003 16:24:02 GMT
Date: 2003-07-29T16:24:02+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3F269F90.2090706@attbi.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: e2e5731a.0307281641.3d42a22e@posting.google.com

Alexander Kopilovitch wrote:

> Just after the above two paragraphs I understand, at last, all the meaning
> of those unfortunate 40 seconds. Yes, you told about that earlier, and perhaps
> several times, but still it did not seem essential -- until you said that this
> part was deliberately excluded from the simulator at the contract level.
> 
> 
>>But as we know, no one was ever in a position to do a diff between the 
>>Ariane 4 and Ariane 5 requirements, and then apply that to reused 
>>subsystems.
> 
> 
> No, this contradicts (although indirectly) your previous statement. How can
> one exclude anything from the simulator's contract if nobody can see differences
> between the Ariane 4 and Ariane 5?

No knowledge of the difference between the Ariane 4 and Ariane 5 was 
involved.  The perfectly reasonable assumption was made that there was 
no need to simulate the alignment functions which ran before takeoff, 
because there was nothing to be learned there.  (This is a case where 
the Araine 4 and 5 really were identical.  Sitting on the pad, the 
accelerometers and gyros were identical and the launch site was 
identical.)  Again what slipped through was that there was a requirement 
in the Ariane 4 to continue running the alignment software after MEI 
(main engine ignition), even though those results were "thrown away" if 
MEI resulted in a launch.

This is one of those very hard to understand things until you have that 
Aha! moment.  On some launchers, such as the Space Shuttle MEI occurs 
several seconds before liftoff.  In the shuttle, and Ariane 4, SRB 
(solid rocket booster) ignition is the point of no return, where you 
can't stop the takeoff.  In Ariane 5, as I understand it, MEI is the 
commit point.

Oh, and as an aside to Hyman:  You keep harping on the fact that the 
overflow for BH wasn't a computed limit.  But you are wrong.  What was 
computed as that limit was the T plus forty second shutdown of the 
alignment process.  That number was chosen so that BH and several other 
variables would not overflow on any mission which the Ariane 4 was 
capable of flying.  It was chosen longer than "necessary" to reset the 
SRI after an expected abort, but short enough that no further checking 
was required.

It is that calculation in the SRI documentation for the Ariane 4 that is 
the smoking gun in the whole incident.

But as I say, this is all irrelevant.  There have now been FIVE Ariane 5 
launch failures out of 14 attempts.  All except the most recent one were 
indirectly due to the flaws in managing the requirements process during 
the Ariane 5 development process. And only the first one involved 
software.  That is because after the Ariane 501 disaster the necessary 
review of all the software was done.  However there were other 
engineering decisions where failure to track requirements resulted in 
failure.  (You could argue that the most recent Ariane 5 failure was 
also due to poor requirements tracking, and I wouldn't disagree.  But it 
is better to say that it resulted from poor requirements generation 
rather than tracking.)


-- 
"As far as I'm concerned, war always means failure." -- Jacques Chirac, 
President of France
"As far as France is concerned, you're right." -- Rush Limbaugh




  reply	other threads:[~2003-07-29 16:24 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 158+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2003-07-21  2:10 Ariane5 FAQ Alexandre E. Kopilovitch
2003-07-21 14:52 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-21 15:54   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-21 18:01     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-21 18:10       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-21 18:49         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-21 19:13           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-21 19:43             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-21 20:46               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-22  2:04                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  5:12                   ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-22 19:09                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  8:03                   ` Leif Roar Moldskred
2003-07-22  9:00                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-23  0:13                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23  0:31                       ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-23 13:53                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-24 16:35                           ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-25  1:21                             ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-25  4:26                               ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-25 12:35                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-25 15:47                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-25 16:51                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-25 18:44                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-25 21:08                                       ` Simon Wright
2003-07-26  1:02                                         ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-26  2:44                                     ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-27 17:05                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-27 22:19                                         ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-28  1:17                                           ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-28  2:39                                             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-28  3:16                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-28 17:34                                                 ` Mike Silva
2003-07-28 18:03                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29  0:41                                               ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-29 16:24                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus [this message]
2003-07-30  0:53                                                   ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-31 21:41                                                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-08-01 20:19                                                       ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-29  4:43                                               ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-29  6:06                                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29  8:06                                                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-29 19:42                                                     ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-29 21:14                                                       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-30  1:13                                                         ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30 12:58                                                   ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-30 15:04                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29 19:46                                                 ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30  6:19                                                   ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-30  7:31                                                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 13:03                                                       ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-30 13:16                                                         ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-30 15:06                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 15:15                                                             ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-30 16:46                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 16:54                                                                 ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-31  8:28                                                                   ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-07-31  9:36                                                                     ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-31 16:28                                                                     ` Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
2003-07-29 19:34                                               ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-29 20:49                                                 ` Simon Wright
2003-07-29 21:52                                                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-28 18:01                                             ` Non-philosophical definition of Eiffel? (was: Re: Ariane5 FAQ) Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-28 18:18                                               ` Non-philosophical definition of Eiffel? Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29  8:43                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-07-29 13:43                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29 14:56                                                     ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-07-29 16:35                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29 21:39                                                         ` Jim Rogers
2003-07-29 22:33                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30  8:48                                                             ` Pascal Obry
2003-07-30 15:19                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 18:47                                                                 ` Frank J. Lhota
2003-07-30 19:24                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-08-04 18:15                                                                   ` Robert Spooner
2003-07-29 22:02                                                         ` Matthew Woodcraft
2003-07-30  9:19                                                         ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-07-30 16:38                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-31  9:58                                                             ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-07-31 15:49                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-08-01  7:57                                                                 ` Dmitry A. Kazakov
2003-08-01 13:31                                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29 19:58                                                 ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-29 20:33                                                   ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30  1:20                                                     ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30  1:49                                                       ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30  2:52                                                         ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30  4:33                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30  4:40                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 13:16                                                           ` Matthew Heaney
2003-07-30 20:08                                                             ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30  3:03                                                         ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30  4:31                                                           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-30 20:20                                                             ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-30 21:05                                                               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-29 19:51                                               ` Berend de Boer
2003-07-28  2:11                                           ` Ariane5 FAQ Hyman Rosen
2003-07-25 17:39                                 ` Mike Silva
2003-07-25 21:53                                 ` John R. Strohm
2003-07-22 18:29                   ` Mike Silva
2003-07-22 18:50                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 19:00                       ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-22 20:47                       ` Mike Silva
2003-07-22 21:11                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 21:38                           ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-23 13:56                             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 21:52                   ` Larry Elmore
2003-07-23 14:11                     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 15:08                       ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-23 17:48                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 18:42                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-23 20:18                             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 22:58                               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-24  1:42                                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-24  5:24                                   ` Mike Silva
2003-07-24  9:57                           ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-24 13:52                             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-24 15:00                               ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-23 20:33                       ` Mike Silva
2003-07-23 21:35                         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 23:10                           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-24  5:16                           ` Mike Silva
2003-07-22  4:57                 ` Richard Riehle
2003-07-22  9:00                   ` Vinzent Hoefler
2003-07-22  9:03                   ` John McCabe
2003-07-22 12:28                   ` Marin David Condic
2003-07-23 19:40               ` Simon Wright
2003-07-22  3:11             ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-22  9:05               ` John McCabe
2003-07-22  9:38                 ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-22 16:38               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-21 22:03           ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-22  1:57             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-21 18:56         ` Francisco Malpartida
2003-07-22  2:22           ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  7:19             ` Tarjei T. Jensen
2003-07-22 19:06               ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 21:24                 ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-23 11:55                   ` Tarjei T. Jensen
2003-07-23 19:24                     ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-24  0:36                       ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-21 22:00       ` Bobby D. Bryant
2003-07-22  1:59         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  9:07           ` John McCabe
2003-07-22 13:25             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  0:16       ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-22  1:45         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22  7:21           ` Tarjei T. Jensen
2003-07-21 23:24   ` Alexander Kopilovitch
2003-07-22  1:53     ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 16:35       ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-22 18:36       ` Mike Silva
2003-07-22 19:23         ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-22 21:50           ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-23 14:21             ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 19:56               ` Robert I. Eachus
2003-07-23 20:26                 ` Hyman Rosen
2003-07-23 23:14                   ` Robert I. Eachus
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