* Where did /= come from? @ 2002-11-06 16:12 Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-06 16:12 UTC (permalink / raw) I'm learning Ada (installed GNAT and AdaGIDE last week, wrote Hello, World). I was somewhat bemused to stumble on Ada's version of "not equals": /= I'm curious about its derivation or the reason behind the lexography. (Perhaps a desire to use common keyboard characters?) -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 16:12 Where did /= come from? Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-06 17:25 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 17:33 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-06 16:50 UTC (permalink / raw) Programmer Dude wrote: > I'm learning Ada (installed GNAT and AdaGIDE last week, wrote Hello, World). > > I was somewhat bemused to stumble on Ada's version of "not equals": /= > > I'm curious about its derivation or the reason behind the lexography. > (Perhaps a desire to use common keyboard characters?) I don't know if it is the real reason, but the mathematical sign for not equal is: =/=. That is a = with a / through it. I find the != symbol in C completely confusing as ! is an exclamation mark so it sounds more like EQUAL than not equal :-) -- Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-06 17:25 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-07 9:31 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-06 17:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: >> I'm curious about its derivation or the reason behind the lexography. >> (Perhaps a desire to use common keyboard characters?) > > I don't know if it is the real reason, but the mathematical sign for not > equal is: =/=. That is a = with a / through it. Ah, that makes sense! > I find the != symbol in C completely confusing as ! is an exclamation > mark so it sounds more like EQUAL than not equal :-) [grin] In my background I'm so used to thinking of 'bang' as 'not' that makes perfect sense to me. It just shows ta go ya! > Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol > �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being > sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� > -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett My very favorite author and modern philosopher! -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 17:25 ` Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-07 9:31 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 11:19 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2002-11-07 22:56 ` Programmer Dude 0 siblings, 2 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-07 9:31 UTC (permalink / raw) Programmer Dude wrote: >> Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol >> �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being >> sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� >> -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett > > My very favorite author and modern philosopher! I don't find him a philosopher, I just found this quote to be sadly true. ;-) On the other hand one could argue that since the entroy of the universe is increasing one need to keep using energy to reduce the entroy of say ones desk. :-) -- Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 9:31 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-07 11:19 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2002-11-07 11:23 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 22:56 ` Programmer Dude 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2002-11-07 11:19 UTC (permalink / raw) The word is "entropy" not "entroy" ----- Original Message ----- From: "Preben Randhol" <randhol+news@pvv.org> Newsgroups: comp.lang.ada To: <comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org> Sent: November 07, 2002 3:31 AM Subject: Re: Where did /= come from? > Programmer Dude wrote: > >> Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol > >> �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being > >> sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� > >> -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett > > > > My very favorite author and modern philosopher! > > I don't find him a philosopher, I just found this quote to be sadly > true. ;-) On the other hand one could argue that since the entroy of the > universe is increasing one need to keep using energy to reduce the > entroy of say ones desk. :-) > > -- > Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol > �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being > sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� > -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett > _______________________________________________ > comp.lang.ada mailing list > comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org > http://ada.eu.org/mailman/listinfo/comp.lang.ada > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 11:19 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2002-11-07 11:23 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-07 11:23 UTC (permalink / raw) David C. Hoos, Sr. wrote: > The word is "entropy" not "entroy" Hmm, how did I manage that typo twice ? -- Preben Randhol ---------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- +---+ "There was, I think, never any reason to believe in any innate | ! | superiority of the male, except his superior muscle." +---+ -- Bertrand Russell, Ideas That Have Harmed Mankind (1950) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 9:31 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 11:19 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. @ 2002-11-07 22:56 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-08 9:43 ` Preben Randhol 1 sibling, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-07 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: >>> -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett >> >> My very favorite author and modern philosopher! > > I don't find him a philosopher, I just found this quote to be sadly > true. ;-) So many of his quotes are true (sadly or otherwise). That's what makes him (in my mind) a philosopher. I think he truly is an acute observer and reporter of the human condition. Obviously, YMMV. ;-) -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 22:56 ` Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-08 9:43 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 9:53 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 9:43 UTC (permalink / raw) Programmer Dude wrote: > So many of his quotes are true (sadly or otherwise). That's what > makes him (in my mind) a philosopher. Nah, that would make an astologist a philosopher. -- Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- �There are three things you can do to a woman. You can love her, suffer for her, or turn her into literature.� - Justine, by Lawrence Durrell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-08 9:43 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 9:53 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 19:35 ` Programmer Dude 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 9:53 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: > Programmer Dude wrote: >> So many of his quotes are true (sadly or otherwise). That's what >> makes him (in my mind) a philosopher. > > Nah, that would make an astologist a philosopher. I mean it doesn't qualify for being a philosopher. An astrologist just says a bunch of general bullshit that most people can relate to and then they think "*WOW* this is how it is". :-) Read the Dirk Gently books by Douglas Adams if you haven't. They are great fun. -- Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- �There are three things you can do to a woman. You can love her, suffer for her, or turn her into literature.� - Justine, by Lawrence Durrell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-08 9:53 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 19:35 ` Programmer Dude 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-08 19:35 UTC (permalink / raw) Preben Randhol wrote: >>> So many of [Terry Pratchett's] quotes are true (sadly or otherwise). >>> That's what makes him (in my mind) a philosopher. >> >> Nah, that would make an astologist a philosopher. > > I mean it doesn't qualify for being a philosopher. An astrologist just > says a bunch of general bullshit that most people can relate to and then > they think "*WOW* this is how it is". :-) I see quite a difference between Pratchett and an astrologist, but I agree overall. That's why I said (in my mind). And, in fact, "acute, cogent and humorous reporter of the human condition" might be a better term. ;-) > Read the Dirk Gently books by Douglas Adams if you haven't. They are > great fun. They were, but I liked HITCHHIKER better. Few books have quite so many delicious quotes. -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 16:12 Where did /= come from? Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-06 17:33 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-06 20:17 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2002-11-06 17:33 UTC (permalink / raw) cjsonnack@mmm.com (Programmer Dude) writes: > I'm learning Ada (installed GNAT and AdaGIDE last week, wrote Hello, World). > > I was somewhat bemused to stumble on Ada's version of "not equals": /= > > I'm curious about its derivation or the reason behind the lexography. > (Perhaps a desire to use common keyboard characters?) It's as close as you can get to the normal maths symbol ("=" with a slash through it) in 7-bit Ascii (which was the standard when Ada was designed). I seem to recall a suggestion in the Ada 83 Rationale suggesting that programs for printing Ada code could print it as "/", backspace, "=", thus producing a maths not-equal sign. Nowadays there are programs that print "/=" and "<=" and so forth in the proper maths way. For example, a2ps has modes for Ada, C, etc, that can do that sort of thing. Ada is descended from Pascal, which uses "<>" for not-equal. That's pretty ugly, IMHO, and I'm glad Ada didn't mimic it. For integers, "less than or greater than" is the same as "not equal", but many types have a not-equal operator but no less-than, etc. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 17:33 ` Robert A Duff @ 2002-11-06 20:17 ` Programmer Dude 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-06 20:17 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert A Duff wrote: > It's as close as you can get to the normal maths symbol ("=" with a > slash through it) in 7-bit Ascii... That's two votes for it and none opposed. The Ayes have it. (Sorry, that time of year in America.) > Ada is descended from Pascal, which uses "<>" for not-equal. > That's pretty ugly, IMHO, and I'm glad Ada didn't mimic it. > For integers, "less than or greater than" is the same as "not equal", > but many types have a not-equal operator but no less-than, etc. Sure. Apples <> Oranges !! Apples < Oranges ?? -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-06 16:12 Where did /= come from? Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-06 17:33 ` Robert A Duff @ 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol ` (3 more replies) 2 siblings, 4 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Matthew Baulch @ 2002-11-07 6:50 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 06 Nov 2002 10:12:59 +0000, Programmer Dude wrote: > I'm learning Ada (installed GNAT and AdaGIDE last week, wrote Hello, World). > > I was somewhat bemused to stumble on Ada's version of "not equals": /= > > I'm curious about its derivation or the reason behind the lexography. > (Perhaps a desire to use common keyboard characters?) I'm not advocating C when I say this, but != makes far more sense than /= lexically speaking. In C, the Negative of a bool is retrieved with !foo. In Ada, not foo. So I believe that K&R got it right using the != operator for 'not equal'. Ada on the other hand doesn't use the ! operator and "not equal" is too clumsy so it could be far worse than '/='. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch @ 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 0:23 ` news.bctel.net 2002-11-07 14:58 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-07 9:21 UTC (permalink / raw) Matthew Baulch wrote: > > I'm not advocating C when I say this, but != makes far more sense than /= > lexically speaking. In C, the Negative of a bool is retrieved with !foo. > In Ada, not foo. So I believe that K&R got it right using the != operator > for 'not equal'. Ada on the other hand doesn't use the ! operator and "not > equal" is too clumsy so it could be far worse than '/='. Well you can argue that they got it wrong when they chose ! in stead of not and = instead of := and == in stead of = ;-) -- Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 0:23 ` news.bctel.net 2002-11-08 9:45 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: news.bctel.net @ 2002-11-08 0:23 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1130 bytes --] I think Ada could be more consistent regarding "/=". consider following invariant expressed in C and Ada C: !(A==B) same as (A != B) Ada: not (A = B), but (A not = B) is incorrect syntax. Alexei. "Preben Randhol" <randhol+news@pvv.org> wrote in message news:slrnaskc44.rf.randhol+news@kiuk0152.chembio.ntnu.no... > Matthew Baulch wrote: > > > > I'm not advocating C when I say this, but != makes far more sense than /= > > lexically speaking. In C, the Negative of a bool is retrieved with !foo. > > In Ada, not foo. So I believe that K&R got it right using the != operator > > for 'not equal'. Ada on the other hand doesn't use the ! operator and "not > > equal" is too clumsy so it could be far worse than '/='. > > Well you can argue that they got it wrong when they chose ! in stead of > not and = instead of := and == in stead of = ;-) > > -- > Preben Randhol -------------------- http://www.pvv.org/~randhol > �.., chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being > sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.� > -- Interesting Times, Terry Pratchett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-08 0:23 ` news.bctel.net @ 2002-11-08 9:45 ` Preben Randhol 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-08 9:45 UTC (permalink / raw) news.bctel.net wrote: > I think Ada could be more consistent regarding "/=". > consider following invariant expressed in C and Ada No, because IMHO that reduces the readability. -- Preben Randhol ------------------------ http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/ -- �There are three things you can do to a woman. You can love her, suffer for her, or turn her into literature.� - Justine, by Lawrence Durrell ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol @ 2002-11-07 14:58 ` Ted Dennison 2002-11-07 15:29 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-11-07 15:03 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-07 18:02 ` Vinzent Hoefler 3 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-11-07 14:58 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matthew Baulch" <matt@greenroom.com.au> wrote in message news:<pan.2002.11.07.06.50.35.988084@greenroom.com.au>... > I'm not advocating C when I say this, but != makes far more sense than /= > lexically speaking. In C, the Negative of a bool is retrieved with !foo. In C, that's a very true statement, for both the reason you mention, and because "/=" is actually a valid shortcut division operator, as I recently discovered to my sorrow. In Ada, it is *not* a true statement. > In Ada, not foo. So I believe that K&R got it right using the != operator > for 'not equal'. Ada on the other hand doesn't use the ! operator and "not > equal" is too clumsy so it could be far worse than '/='. K&R certianly got it right for C. However, that decision was based on a rotten foundation of using unnessecarily terse notation for the concept of "not", for allowing a shortcut "division back into" operator, and for allowing assignments to be value returning statements themselves. As you point out, Ada's operator is just fine for Ada. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 14:58 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-11-07 15:29 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-11-07 22:57 ` Programmer Dude 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-11-07 15:29 UTC (permalink / raw) For C to be consistent, a == b and a != b should be equivalent to a = ( (a) = (b) ) and a = ( (a) ! (b) ) respectively. Of course, C has not defined a binary "!" operator yet... ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 15:29 ` Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-11-07 22:57 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-08 17:06 ` Frank J. Lhota 0 siblings, 1 reply; 22+ messages in thread From: Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-07 22:57 UTC (permalink / raw) "Frank J. Lhota" wrote: > For C to be consistent, > > a == b > and > a != b > > should be equivalent to > > a = ( (a) = (b) ) > and > a = ( (a) ! (b) ) That's funny! ;-) > Of course, C has not defined a binary "!" operator yet... What about the compliment operator: ~ -- |_ CJSonnack <Chris@Sonnack.com> _____________| How's my programming? | |_ http://www.Sonnack.com/ ___________________| Call: 1-800-DEV-NULL | |_____________________________________________|_______________________| Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 22:57 ` Programmer Dude @ 2002-11-08 17:06 ` Frank J. Lhota 0 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Frank J. Lhota @ 2002-11-08 17:06 UTC (permalink / raw) Maybe this is why C / C++ programmers dislike the ":=" symbol for assignment. They are bound to think that a := b is equivalent to a = (a) : (b) and the right hand side is missing the "cond ?" prefix. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 14:58 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-11-07 15:03 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-07 18:02 ` Vinzent Hoefler 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2002-11-07 15:03 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matthew Baulch" <matt@greenroom.com.au> writes: > I'm not advocating C when I say this, but != makes far more sense than /= > lexically speaking. ... And hundreds of years of mathematicians got it all wrong? Lucky K&R came along to set them straight! ;-) - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
* Re: Where did /= come from? 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-11-07 15:03 ` Robert A Duff @ 2002-11-07 18:02 ` Vinzent Hoefler 3 siblings, 0 replies; 22+ messages in thread From: Vinzent Hoefler @ 2002-11-07 18:02 UTC (permalink / raw) "Matthew Baulch" <matt@greenroom.com.au> wrote: > In C, the Negative of a bool is retrieved with !foo. Well, because C has no "bool" in the sense of Boolean variables, this is rather irrelevant. The "!" probably was literally meant as "not" but does not really do it, it just acts like a "compare with zero", simulating a Boolean. :-) So "!=" does not make sense from this point of view. One could argue, its just the best "visual" replacement they could get for a "/=" what could not be used because it was already meant to be a complete different thing. ;-) Vinzent. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 22+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-11-08 19:35 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 22+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-11-06 16:12 Where did /= come from? Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 16:50 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-06 17:25 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-07 9:31 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 11:19 ` David C. Hoos, Sr. 2002-11-07 11:23 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 22:56 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-08 9:43 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 9:53 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 19:35 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-06 17:33 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-06 20:17 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-07 6:50 ` Matthew Baulch 2002-11-07 9:21 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-08 0:23 ` news.bctel.net 2002-11-08 9:45 ` Preben Randhol 2002-11-07 14:58 ` Ted Dennison 2002-11-07 15:29 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-11-07 22:57 ` Programmer Dude 2002-11-08 17:06 ` Frank J. Lhota 2002-11-07 15:03 ` Robert A Duff 2002-11-07 18:02 ` Vinzent Hoefler
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