* Embedded Ada Development Tools @ 2002-06-03 19:15 Jason Gerry 2002-06-03 19:24 ` Jim Rogers 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Jason Gerry @ 2002-06-03 19:15 UTC (permalink / raw) I am looking to do embedded developement using Ada. I realize the value in working with Ada in a saftey critical environment (as compared to C). There seems to be a terrible problem in doing a design in Ada in an embedded environment. From what I have seen, there are very little tools, besides Green Hills, and limited targets for embedded Ada development. My project doesn't require and embedded OS, and I would like to feel that there were more targets, Compiler vendors, out there before commiting to serious design/developement work. I do give gredit for Greens Hills to get there Ada environments to market (www.ghs.com). Thanks to All... Jason Gerry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-03 19:15 Embedded Ada Development Tools Jason Gerry @ 2002-06-03 19:24 ` Jim Rogers 2002-06-03 20:47 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-03 23:26 ` Greg Bek 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Jim Rogers @ 2002-06-03 19:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Jason Gerry wrote: > I am looking to do embedded developement using Ada. I realize the > value in working with Ada in a saftey critical environment (as > compared to C). There seems to be a terrible problem in doing a > design in Ada in an embedded environment. From what I have seen, > there are very little tools, besides Green Hills, and limited targets > for embedded Ada development. There are additional embedded development environment including GNAT, Aonix, and DDCI. Jim Rogers ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-03 19:24 ` Jim Rogers @ 2002-06-03 20:47 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-05 15:09 ` John Kern 2002-06-03 23:26 ` Greg Bek 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-03 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw) We might also mention that a good place to start looking is: http://www.adapower.com/ - in the "Links" section you will find links to a variety of Ada vendors as well as other things. There are lots of Ada resources to be found by starting at this web page. Its a shame that Ada, having been invented to serve in the embedded arena, doesn't meet with more success competing against other languages for development projects. Its well suited to the task, but suffers from lack of interest by embedded programmers & as a result tends to lack the compilers and tools targeted to a lot of embedded machines. There are a number of machines for which you *can* get Ada & related tools, but its not nearly the number one sees for C compilers. If you're using one of the more common processors, you should be able to find what you need. If its a bit off the beaten path, you may have problems. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Jim Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:3CFBC246.7020201@worldnet.att.net... > > > There are additional embedded development environment including > GNAT, Aonix, and DDCI. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-03 20:47 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-05 15:09 ` John Kern 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 0:48 ` Greg Bek 0 siblings, 2 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: John Kern @ 2002-06-05 15:09 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > If you're using one of the more common processors, you should be able to > find what you need. If its a bit off the beaten path, you may have problems. > What embedded processors have sold more than the Motorola HC12 family? I suspect a lot of embedded projects start off small, (8/16-bit) and eventually graduate to the 32-bitters where switching to Ada would involve abandoning proven legacy C code. Ada seems to be mostly for markets which have always though big (like aerospace) as opposed to the industries started small (like automotive.) One of these days, I'm going to buy my son the Lego Mindstorms kit and get that Ada compiler working. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 15:09 ` John Kern @ 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry ` (3 more replies) 2002-06-06 0:48 ` Greg Bek 1 sibling, 4 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-05 16:54 UTC (permalink / raw) I've seen Ada for 16-bit processors, but you're point is taken. Most Ada implementations target 32-bit or bigger machines and while this is nice for some of the more grandiose projects, its not where most of the little commercial things live. And of course, even if it were possible to get an Ada compiler to target some small 8-bit processor, we'd still be stuck with that chicken-and-egg problem. Developers have no Ada compiler for these targets from which to choose, so their interests go elsewhere to what they can get. (Generally, C)Compiler-writers won't make something for that target because its a lot of work and they don't see any interested developers to justify the work. Such lack of compilers leads the developers to conclude that it isn't possible to get Ada targeted to their processors and fuels a lot of the misconceptions about Ada (too slow, too big, etc.) Maybe the correct answer is to do what seems to be the current direction - get Ada used in more PC/Workstation apps where the targeting job is a bit easier and as it gets more popular in this domain, it starts making it easier to justify targeting more embedded targets because of programmer familiarity, development of tools, etc. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "John Kern" <jkern3@NOSPAM.visteon.com> wrote in message news:3CFE29BB.A7D22E77@NOSPAM.visteon.com... > > I suspect a lot of embedded projects start off small, (8/16-bit) and > eventually graduate to the 32-bitters where switching to Ada would > involve abandoning proven legacy C code. Ada seems to be mostly for > markets which have always though big (like aerospace) as opposed to the > industries started small (like automotive.) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry 2002-06-06 16:08 ` Steven Deller ` (6 more replies) 2002-06-06 15:32 ` Robert C. Leif ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 7 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Jason Gerry @ 2002-06-06 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw) I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at night. Jason Gerry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* RE: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry @ 2002-06-06 16:08 ` Steven Deller 2002-06-06 17:03 ` John R. Strohm ` (5 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Steven Deller @ 2002-06-06 16:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Jason, Emenu has over 20 engineers with EXACTLY that expertise -- embedded systems and Ada. Each has over 14 years experience. We cover areas from Southern CA to New England, Texas, Arizona, Minnesota, Maryland and more (our engineers are willing to travel). And we all can train a project's own personnel in Ada, embedded systems, and numerous application areas for embedded systems. We do C++ and other languages, but ALL of us would prefer Ada -- it gives us the best way to express our quality engineering approaches. We use OO, OO tools that generate Ada and pay attention to *architecture* as much as implementation. We cover classes to bits and everything in between. And Emenu is NOT, by far, the only source of excellent expertise in Ada and embedded systems. If you look, you will find... Regards, Steve Deller Emenu Incorporated Steve.Deller@Emenu-Inc.com 410 757 6924 > -----Original Message----- > [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Jason Gerry > Sent: Thursday, June 06, 2002 8:19 AM > To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org > Subject: Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools > > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not > to start a flame war or anything, but could you imagine > doing embedded Ada development within a small project team, > and the ada developer was to leave the company..... Yikes! > ... I understand Ada is easier to maintain, but you still > need someone off the street who is adept at embedded systems > programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at night. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry 2002-06-06 16:08 ` Steven Deller @ 2002-06-06 17:03 ` John R. Strohm 2002-06-07 3:59 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-06 19:25 ` Jeffrey Carter ` (4 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: John R. Strohm @ 2002-06-06 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw) Jason, every company that has actually TRIED training programmers to use Ada has learned that it is not at all difficult, and that a good programmer very quickly becomes productive in Ada. When Boeing mandated Ada for the 777, every subcontractor in the country screamed bloody murder. Boeing insisted. None of them wanted to lose out on the biggest contract they would see for a long time, with the biggest airplane manufacturer in the world, that carried the certain knowledge that whoever took this job WOULD get the follow-on work for the NEXT airplane, and the rules would probably be the same next time around. They all toed the line. They ALL came in on time and in budget. Despite training costs. Despite, in at least one case, having to scrap a bunch of already-completed work and start over from scratch. Furthermore, when the companies really, seriously, did the metrics collection and looked at the results, they learned that Ada saved them time and money. The best example is the Pratt & Whitney experience, for which Marin David Condic is the knowledgeable individual who was in the trenches at the time. "Jason Gerry" <jgerry11@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e8a5e1a4.0206060519.ce12ba@posting.google.com... > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to > maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at > embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at > night. > > > Jason Gerry ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 17:03 ` John R. Strohm @ 2002-06-07 3:59 ` Richard Riehle 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Riehle @ 2002-06-07 3:59 UTC (permalink / raw) "John R. Strohm" wrote: > Furthermore, when the companies really, seriously, did the metrics > collection and looked at the results, they learned that Ada saved them time > and money. The best example is the Pratt & Whitney experience, for which > Marin David Condic is the knowledgeable individual who was in the trenches > at the time. Just read my latest edition of Crosstalk. Yet another article that names every programming language ever invented and completely ignores any mention of Ada. And here we have an author whose credibility in implying that Ada is irrelevant is reinforced by having been at AJPO. Even as we educate people about the benefits of Ada, former DoD officials with their focus on consulting dollars throw unnecessary obstacles in the path of wider acceptance. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry 2002-06-06 16:08 ` Steven Deller 2002-06-06 17:03 ` John R. Strohm @ 2002-06-06 19:25 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-06 20:38 ` Bill Tate ` (3 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-06 19:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Jason Gerry wrote: > > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to > maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at > embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at > night. This is FUD, pure and simple. -- Jeff Carter "I fart in your general direction." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-06-06 19:25 ` Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-06 20:38 ` Bill Tate 2002-06-06 20:39 ` Ted Dennison ` (2 subsequent siblings) 6 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Bill Tate @ 2002-06-06 20:38 UTC (permalink / raw) jgerry11@yahoo.com (Jason Gerry) wrote in message news:<e8a5e1a4.0206060519.ce12ba@posting.google.com>... > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to > maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at > embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at > night. > > > Jason Gerry "...small project team..." and "...who is adept..." Ahhh - an image is emerging in my mind :>) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2002-06-06 20:38 ` Bill Tate @ 2002-06-06 20:39 ` Ted Dennison 2002-06-07 4:08 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-07 12:08 ` John English 2002-06-07 13:28 ` Marin David Condic 6 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2002-06-06 20:39 UTC (permalink / raw) jgerry11@yahoo.com (Jason Gerry) wrote in message news:<e8a5e1a4.0206060519.ce12ba@posting.google.com>... > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to > maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at > embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at > night. Presumably you are comparing this with a similar situation using C. Actually, I know of a couple of studies that found that novice Ada programmers who knew C still had more productivity and less bugs when they used Ada instead of C. Plus, Ada's generally considered easier to read and understand than C, which will be a big help once the replacement developer is hired. So actually, I think I'd be way more worried about my embedded programmer for a C system leaving than for an Ada one. -- T.E.D. Home - mailto:dennison@telepath.com (Yahoo: Ted_Dennison) Homepage - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 20:39 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-06-07 4:08 ` Richard Riehle 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Riehle @ 2002-06-07 4:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > Actually, I know of a couple of studies that found that novice Ada > programmers who knew C still had more productivity and less bugs when > they used Ada instead of C. Plus, Ada's generally considered easier to > read and understand than C, which will be a big help once the > replacement developer is hired. I just took a quick tour through a new book from Microsoft Press titled, Writing Secure Code. It would be hilarious if it were not so pathetic. Over and over the authors demonstrate how to avoid the pitfalls of writing code in C and C++. Over and over I find myself reacting with, "This problem simply would not occur if they were writing in Ada." The authors are well-intentioned and intelligent. They even admit, early in the book, that they are writing about C code because that is the more widely used language even though it is clearly less secure and less safe than many other languages. Of course, they never mention Ada since they probably no nothing about it. One of my favorite monthly columns in C++ Report was called "Obfuscated C++." It was also a source of amusement because the obfuscations described simply could not have happened in Ada. Still, these "professionals" continue to sell their souls to the Devil when it would be so much easier to harmonize with the angels. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry ` (4 preceding siblings ...) 2002-06-06 20:39 ` Ted Dennison @ 2002-06-07 12:08 ` John English 2002-06-07 14:09 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-06-07 13:28 ` Marin David Condic 6 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: John English @ 2002-06-07 12:08 UTC (permalink / raw) Jason Gerry wrote: > > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... >THE< Ada developer? What sort of a team is that, with only one developer who understands the language being used? That's a VERY small project team... ----------------------------------------------------------------- John English | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk Senior Lecturer | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je Dept. of Computing | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS ** University of Brighton | -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-07 12:08 ` John English @ 2002-06-07 14:09 ` Larry Kilgallen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2002-06-07 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <3D00A230.F02C0CF4@brighton.ac.uk>, John English <je@brighton.ac.uk> writes: > Jason Gerry wrote: >> >> I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a >> flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada >> development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to >> leave the company..... > >>THE< Ada developer? What sort of a team is that, with only one developer > who understands the language being used? That's a VERY small project > team... What sort of a team is that with other programmers who are incapable of learning the language being used ? What sort of a management is that, who pay the other programmers to do nothing ? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry ` (5 preceding siblings ...) 2002-06-07 12:08 ` John English @ 2002-06-07 13:28 ` Marin David Condic 6 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-07 13:28 UTC (permalink / raw) A couple of things: It isn't *that* hard to find people who know Ada & embedded systems. It isn't *that* hard to get someone up to speed enough on Ada to make them productive. All languages have to start from somewhere & obviously people succeed in learning them as they emerge and needs arise to use them, so I don't really see the problem. (Note that things like C# and .Net are emerging and suddenly everyone wants to find people with 20 years of experience working with them. Too bad. You'll just have to *train* them, eh? :-) By your argument, embedded systems should never have gone outside of assembler because someone might learn the "new" language and quit and you wouldn't be able to find people who knew the new language. Yet it has been done over and over again. Fear not - if the need arises, intelligent programmers will learn whatever language is needed to get the job done. :-) MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Jason Gerry" <jgerry11@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:e8a5e1a4.0206060519.ce12ba@posting.google.com... > I agree with most of the information posted.... and.... not to start a > flame war or anything, but could you imagine doing embedded Ada > development within a small project team, and the ada developer was to > leave the company..... Yikes! ... I understand Ada is easier to > maintain, but you still need someone off the street who is adept at > embedded systems programming and Ada coding.... It would keep me up at > night. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* RE: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry @ 2002-06-06 15:32 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-06-06 19:27 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-07 3:52 ` Richard Riehle 3 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Robert C. Leif @ 2002-06-06 15:32 UTC (permalink / raw) From: Bob Leif To: Marin Condic et al. The simplest way to port Ada to a small processor is to use a J code compiler. This is absolutely not a new idea. It goes back to at least UCSD Pascal. The best approach would be to a have a native J code processor which included an ADC, DAC, watch-dog timer, and USB port. -----Original Message----- From: comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org [mailto:comp.lang.ada-admin@ada.eu.org] On Behalf Of Marin David Condic Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2002 9:55 AM To: comp.lang.ada@ada.eu.org Subject: Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools I've seen Ada for 16-bit processors, but you're point is taken. Most Ada implementations target 32-bit or bigger machines and while this is nice for some of the more grandiose projects, its not where most of the little commercial things live. And of course, even if it were possible to get an Ada compiler to target some small 8-bit processor, we'd still be stuck with that chicken-and-egg problem. Developers have no Ada compiler for these targets from which to choose, so their interests go elsewhere to what they can get. (Generally, C)Compiler-writers won't make something for that target because its a lot of work and they don't see any interested developers to justify the work. Such lack of compilers leads the developers to conclude that it isn't possible to get Ada targeted to their processors and fuels a lot of the misconceptions about Ada (too slow, too big, etc.) Maybe the correct answer is to do what seems to be the current direction - get Ada used in more PC/Workstation apps where the targeting job is a bit easier and as it gets more popular in this domain, it starts making it easier to justify targeting more embedded targets because of programmer familiarity, development of tools, etc. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "John Kern" <jkern3@NOSPAM.visteon.com> wrote in message news:3CFE29BB.A7D22E77@NOSPAM.visteon.com... > > I suspect a lot of embedded projects start off small, (8/16-bit) and > eventually graduate to the 32-bitters where switching to Ada would > involve abandoning proven legacy C code. Ada seems to be mostly for > markets which have always though big (like aerospace) as opposed to the > industries started small (like automotive.) > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry 2002-06-06 15:32 ` Robert C. Leif @ 2002-06-06 19:27 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-07 13:42 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-07 3:52 ` Richard Riehle 3 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-06 19:27 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > I've seen Ada for 16-bit processors, but you're point is taken. Most Ada > implementations target 32-bit or bigger machines and while this is nice for > some of the more grandiose projects, its not where most of the little > commercial things live. And of course, even if it were possible to get an > Ada compiler to target some small 8-bit processor, we'd still be stuck with > that chicken-and-egg problem. Developers have no Ada compiler for these > targets from which to choose, so their interests go elsewhere to what they > can get. (Generally, C)Compiler-writers won't make something for that target > because its a lot of work and they don't see any interested developers to > justify the work. Such lack of compilers leads the developers to conclude > that it isn't possible to get Ada targeted to their processors and fuels a > lot of the misconceptions about Ada (too slow, too big, etc.) Anything that is targeted by an ANSI C compiler is also targeted by Averstar's Ada-to-ANSI-C compiler. -- Jeff Carter "I fart in your general direction." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 19:27 ` Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-07 13:42 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-08 3:16 ` Jeffrey Carter 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-07 13:42 UTC (permalink / raw) True, but its a lousy answer to someone with some small embedded target. "Let me get this straight: I've got to buy *two* compilers and figure out procedures to integrate all that stuff into a development environment? Why don't I just get my little two-month, 5000 line job done with the C compiler that came with my embedded board and just be done with it?" Supposing for a minute that Ada can be made to fit some small SBC - it probably can in most cases. The only way your average developer is going to be willing to go with Ada is if Ada is one of the languages that comes with the development kit for the SBC. Otherwise, there's just way too much work, hassle and risk with trying to cobble something else together and since most really small computers are used for really small jobs, there just isn't going to be enough food value with Ada to justify going to all the extra effort. I respect the fact that Averstar has *an* answer and I'm sure there are times when this makes sense, but you have to look at the realities of the small-computer market and remember that the object of the game isn't to use Ada, but to get your SBC project built and out the door quickly and at the lowest possible cost. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Jeffrey Carter" <jrcarter@acm.org> wrote in message news:3CFFB7A3.178C0549@acm.org... > > Anything that is targeted by an ANSI C compiler is also targeted by > Averstar's Ada-to-ANSI-C compiler. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-07 13:42 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-08 3:16 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-10 14:00 ` Marin David Condic 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-08 3:16 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > > True, but its a lousy answer to someone with some small embedded target. > "Let me get this straight: I've got to buy *two* compilers and figure out > procedures to integrate all that stuff into a development environment? Why > don't I just get my little two-month, 5000 line job done with the C compiler > that came with my embedded board and just be done with it?" Since your board came with a C compiler, you don't have to buy 2 compilers. You only have to buy the Ada-to-C translator once, after which it will work with many such boards. I agree that this approach is not going to win any converts to Ada. But to those who have to develop on such systems, and who would rather use Ada, it may be an attractive alternative. I may recall incorrectly (is that even possible? :), but I think that was the OP's position. -- Jeff Carter "Your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-08 3:16 ` Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-10 14:00 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-11 21:17 ` Michael Bode 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-10 14:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Arguing that since you already have the C compiler, its a sunk cost might get around that part of the expenditure, but you still had to pay for it. I don't think it makes a convincing argument for why someone would want to go to the *extra* effort and cost of buying an Ada-to-C translator, figuring out how to connect everything up into a development kit, dealing with tool compatibility problems (symbolic debuggers, for example), etc. You've *really* got to believe that Ada is going to buy you back all the added cost and risk in some way to be convinced this is what you should do. For lots of small SBC projects, I just don't see it. "I bought a development board and it came with this C compiler, loader, debugger, monitor, etc. It cost me $500. My project is likely to amount to 5000 lines of code and two months of development. I'm going to spend *how much* to buy an Ada to C translator and I've got to invest *how long* to figure out how to connect this up with my $500 development kit???? When is it that I realize the benefit to justify the cost?" As far as I can see, if Ada wants to play in the small SBC market, it needs to come along with that $500 development board as an already integrated item that provides every bit of functionality that the C compiler does, or it just doesn't stand a chance of winning any converts. MDC -- Marin David Condic Senior Software Engineer Pace Micro Technology Americas www.pacemicro.com Enabling the digital revolution e-Mail: marin.condic@pacemicro.com "Jeffrey Carter" <jrcarter@acm.org> wrote in message news:3D0176F9.CBF39FB1@acm.org... > > Since your board came with a C compiler, you don't have to buy 2 > compilers. You only have to buy the Ada-to-C translator once, after > which it will work with many such boards. > > I agree that this approach is not going to win any converts to Ada. But > to those who have to develop on such systems, and who would rather use > Ada, it may be an attractive alternative. I may recall incorrectly (is > that even possible? :), but I think that was the OP's position. > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-10 14:00 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-11 21:17 ` Michael Bode 2002-06-12 19:42 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Michael Bode @ 2002-06-11 21:17 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > As far as I can see, if Ada wants to play in the small SBC market, it needs > to come along with that $500 development board as an already integrated item > that provides every bit of functionality that the C compiler does, or it > just doesn't stand a chance of winning any converts. So is there any $500 (or less) Ada compiler for any small embedded system? ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-11 21:17 ` Michael Bode @ 2002-06-12 19:42 ` Randy Brukardt 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Randy Brukardt @ 2002-06-12 19:42 UTC (permalink / raw) Michael Bode wrote in message ... >"Marin David Condic" <dont.bother.mcondic.auntie.spam@[acm.org> writes: > >> As far as I can see, if Ada wants to play in the small SBC market, it needs >> to come along with that $500 development board as an already integrated item >> that provides every bit of functionality that the C compiler does, or it >> just doesn't stand a chance of winning any converts. > >So is there any $500 (or less) Ada compiler for any small embedded system? Janus/Ada 83 for MS-DOS is still $500. It has been used for embedded 186-based systems using an embedded MS-DOS. (The full bare-machine version costs a lot more than $500, though). Don't know if this is small enough for you, though. Randy Brukardt. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2002-06-06 19:27 ` Jeffrey Carter @ 2002-06-07 3:52 ` Richard Riehle 3 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Riehle @ 2002-06-07 3:52 UTC (permalink / raw) Marin David Condic wrote: > I've seen Ada for 16-bit processors, but you're point is taken. Most Ada > implementations target 32-bit or bigger machines and while this is nice for > some of the more grandiose projects, its not where most of the little > commercial things live. And of course, even if it were possible to get an > Ada compiler to target some small 8-bit processor, we'd still be stuck with > that chicken-and-egg problem. Maybe it's time for RR Software to resurrect that 8-bit Ada compiler they developed back in the Eighties. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-05 15:09 ` John Kern 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-06 0:48 ` Greg Bek 2002-06-06 12:14 ` John English 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Greg Bek @ 2002-06-06 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) John Kern <jkern3@NOSPAM.visteon.com> wrote in message news:<3CFE29BB.A7D22E77@NOSPAM.visteon.com>... > > One of these days, I'm going to buy my son the Lego Mindstorms kit and > get that Ada compiler working. The best way to do this is to start with Barry Fagin's ada2nqc program. It allows you to write pure Ada code and then translate it into NQC for compilation and download to the RCX. I took Barry's code and added tasking and a couple of other things to it, although I think Barry has since done it as well. There is some slight mismatch between Ada tasking semantics and the Lego RCX tasking, but it doesn't stop you writing pure Ada code. The code might not work if ported to another target, but that isn't a real problem in this domain. Here is some sample code in Ada: with Lego; use Lego; procedure scanbot is Angle : constant Sensor_Port := Sensor_1; Eye : constant Sensor_Port := Sensor_3; Left : constant Output_Port := Output_A; Head : constant Output_Port := Output_B; Right : constant Output_Port := Output_C; Slop : constant Integer := 2; Center : constant Integer := 53; Sweep : constant Integer := 48; Align_Time : constant Integer := 300; -- 3 seconds Turn_Time : constant Integer := 50; -- 1/2 second Threshold : constant Integer := 65; procedure Align is Current : Integer; begin Output_Reverse (Head); Clear_Sensor(Angle); Current := Get_Sensor_Value(Angle); Output_On(Head); Wait (100); while ( Current /= Get_Sensor_Value (Angle )) loop Current := Get_Sensor_Value(Angle); Wait (200); end loop; Output_Off(Head); Output_Forward (Head); Clear_Sensor(Angle); end Align; task Steer is entry Start; entry Stop; end Steer; task body Steer is begin accept Start; While (True) loop if (Eye > Threshold) then Output_Off(Head); Play_Sound(Click); if (Angle < Center - Slop) then Output_Reverse(Left); Wait(Turn_Time); Output_Forward(Left); else if (Angle > Center + Slop ) then Output_Reverse(Right); Wait(Turn_Time); Output_Forward(Right); end if; end if; Output_On(Head); end if; end loop; end Steer; begin Config_Sensor(Eye, Config_Light); Config_Sensor(Angle, Config_Rotation); Align; Output_on ( Left + Right + Head ); Steer.Start; while (True) loop if (Angle < (Center - Sweep)) then Output_Forward (Head); else if (Angle > (Center + Sweep)) then Output_Reverse (Head); end if; end if; end loop; end; ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 0:48 ` Greg Bek @ 2002-06-06 12:14 ` John English 2002-06-06 15:59 ` Jerry Petrey 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: John English @ 2002-06-06 12:14 UTC (permalink / raw) Greg Bek wrote: > > John Kern <jkern3@NOSPAM.visteon.com> wrote in message news:<3CFE29BB.A7D22E77@NOSPAM.visteon.com>... > > > > One of these days, I'm going to buy my son the Lego Mindstorms kit and > > get that Ada compiler working. > > The best way to do this is to start with Barry Fagin's ada2nqc program. > It allows you to write pure Ada code and then translate it into NQC > for compilation and download to the RCX. Do you have a URL for this? ----------------------------------------------------------------- John English | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk Senior Lecturer | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je Dept. of Computing | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS ** University of Brighton | -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-06 12:14 ` John English @ 2002-06-06 15:59 ` Jerry Petrey 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Jerry Petrey @ 2002-06-06 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) John English wrote: > > > The best way to do this is to start with Barry Fagin's ada2nqc program. > > It allows you to write pure Ada code and then translate it into NQC > > for compilation and download to the RCX. > > Do you have a URL for this? > > John, here are some links to Barry's work on Ada Mindstorms: http://www.faginfamily.net/barry/Papers/AdaLetters.htm http://www.usafa.af.mil/dfcs/Ada_Mindstorms_manual.htm http://www.faginfamily.net/barry/Papers/IEEERA.htm http://www.acm.org/sigada/conf/sigada2001/private/SIGAda2001-CDROM/SIGAda2001-Proceedings/Fagin-Paper.pdf Jerry -- --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Jerry Petrey -- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Navigation (GPS/INS), Guidance, & Control -- Raytheon Missile Systems - Member Team Ada & Team Forth -- NOTE: please remove <NOSPAM> in email address to reply --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-03 19:24 ` Jim Rogers 2002-06-03 20:47 ` Marin David Condic @ 2002-06-03 23:26 ` Greg Bek 2002-06-07 4:11 ` Richard Riehle 1 sibling, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Greg Bek @ 2002-06-03 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw) Rational Software also provide Ada compilers for embedded systems. See http://www.adaic.org/compilers/cpl/lists/CPLbase.html for the current list of certified compilers. Embedded targets supported: 68K Family, RH32, PowerPC, MIPS, Intel. Embedded Operating Systems: Tornado, LynxOS, and Rational Exec (bare board). (Not all combinations of RTOS/processor supported). Greg Bek Product Manager - Rational Apex "Jim Rogers" <jimmaureenrogers@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:3CFBC246.7020201@worldnet.att.net... > Jason Gerry wrote: > > > I am looking to do embedded developement using Ada. I realize the > > value in working with Ada in a saftey critical environment (as > > compared to C). There seems to be a terrible problem in doing a > > design in Ada in an embedded environment. From what I have seen, > > there are very little tools, besides Green Hills, and limited targets > > for embedded Ada development. > > > There are additional embedded development environment including > GNAT, Aonix, and DDCI. > > Jim Rogers > > ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-03 23:26 ` Greg Bek @ 2002-06-07 4:11 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-07 5:24 ` Michael Bode 0 siblings, 1 reply; 30+ messages in thread From: Richard Riehle @ 2002-06-07 4:11 UTC (permalink / raw) Greg Bek wrote: > Rational Software also provide Ada compilers for embedded systems. > See http://www.adaic.org/compilers/cpl/lists/CPLbase.html for the current > list of certified compilers. > > Embedded targets supported: 68K Family, RH32, PowerPC, MIPS, Intel. > Embedded Operating Systems: Tornado, LynxOS, and Rational Exec (bare board). > (Not all combinations of RTOS/processor supported). HmmmmmMMMMmmmmmmm! Maybe Rational should make the old RR Software Eight Bit compiler part of their compiler portfolio. That would deal with the problem of eight bit compilers. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
* Re: Embedded Ada Development Tools 2002-06-07 4:11 ` Richard Riehle @ 2002-06-07 5:24 ` Michael Bode 0 siblings, 0 replies; 30+ messages in thread From: Michael Bode @ 2002-06-07 5:24 UTC (permalink / raw) Richard Riehle <richard@adaworks.com> writes: > Maybe Rational should make the old RR Software Eight Bit compiler > part of their compiler portfolio. That would deal with the problem > of eight bit compilers. GCC can target the Atmel AVR 8-Bit controllers. But I fear that does not mean one can pick some compiler switches during GCC build and get Gnat for AVR. If someone would find a way to make even a subset of Ada available on the AVR through GCC that would be a nice start. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 30+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2002-06-12 19:42 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 30+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2002-06-03 19:15 Embedded Ada Development Tools Jason Gerry 2002-06-03 19:24 ` Jim Rogers 2002-06-03 20:47 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-05 15:09 ` John Kern 2002-06-05 16:54 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 13:19 ` Jason Gerry 2002-06-06 16:08 ` Steven Deller 2002-06-06 17:03 ` John R. Strohm 2002-06-07 3:59 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-06 19:25 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-06 20:38 ` Bill Tate 2002-06-06 20:39 ` Ted Dennison 2002-06-07 4:08 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-07 12:08 ` John English 2002-06-07 14:09 ` Larry Kilgallen 2002-06-07 13:28 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-06 15:32 ` Robert C. Leif 2002-06-06 19:27 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-07 13:42 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-08 3:16 ` Jeffrey Carter 2002-06-10 14:00 ` Marin David Condic 2002-06-11 21:17 ` Michael Bode 2002-06-12 19:42 ` Randy Brukardt 2002-06-07 3:52 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-06 0:48 ` Greg Bek 2002-06-06 12:14 ` John English 2002-06-06 15:59 ` Jerry Petrey 2002-06-03 23:26 ` Greg Bek 2002-06-07 4:11 ` Richard Riehle 2002-06-07 5:24 ` Michael Bode
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