Gratuitous bashing ?

Gratuitous bashing ?

[Wes Groleau]

http://www.cafeaulait.org/1998august.html

Look for the word "Ada" within it....

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Marin David Condic]

I noticed they claim Java was developed for embedded systems. I don't recall
that being the objective behind Java and I don't think I've encountered any
embedded Java projects. Last I heard, it basically went to interpreted byte
code - which is not a typical strategy for embedded computing. This is
rather implying that the author might not be up on all the facts about Java
and hence might not be the best source for information about Ada (which
*was* developed for embedded systems.)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

"Wes Groleau" <wwgrol@sparc01.ftw.rsc.raytheon.com> wrote in message
news:3BC46184.F88496A8@sparc01.ftw.rsc.raytheon.com...
> http://www.cafeaulait.org/1998august.html
>
> Look for the word "Ada" within it....
>
> --
> Wes Groleau
> http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Darren New]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> I noticed they claim Java was developed for embedded systems. I don't recall
> that being the objective behind Java and I don't think I've encountered any
> embedded Java projects.

IIRC, Java was originally called "Green" or "Greentree" or some such,
and was intended for set-top boxes. The idea was to allow stuff like TV
listings and such to not rely on the specifics of the set-top box.

> Last I heard, it basically went to interpreted byte
> code - which is not a typical strategy for embedded computing.

It's getting more common for the parts that aren't real-time. At least
one cell phone has a JVM built into it.

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
                   Who is this Dr. Ibid anyway, 
                  and how does he know so much?

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <3BC47929.A22F574A@san.rr.com>, Darren New says...
>
>Marin David Condic wrote:
>> I noticed they claim Java was developed for embedded systems. I don't recall
>> that being the objective behind Java and I don't think I've encountered any
>> embedded Java projects.
>
>IIRC, Java was originally called "Green" or "Greentree" or some such,
>and was intended for set-top boxes. The idea was to allow stuff like TV
>listings and such to not rely on the specifics of the set-top box.

Which of course explains why it takes my digital cable box 3 seconds to change
the stinking channel...

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

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Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Marin David Condic]

Actually, that has more to do with the difference in Analog and Digital
signals - the digital source has to do a whole bunch more work before you
can start getting an image displaying. (Basically done in hardware) The
Java - if any - isn't operating at that level. (We have no Java in our STB -
yet. {Day ain't over, yet!})

I don't know that Java was invented *specifically* for STBs - I rather
recall it being something developed because they thought web apps would be
multi-platform....

I know it sucks. (channel changing, that is) I sit here at my desk daily
watching it suck over and over again and wondering if there is some way to
decrease its level of suckage. I know its going to be a sore spot for the
consumers and they'll want their old analog sets back. The problem is that
you can get four digital channels in the bandwidth that you currently get
one analog channel in. The cable guys *love* it and so you'll be stuck with
it.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:qT_w7.23239$ev2.31691@www.newsranger.com...
>
> Which of course explains why it takes my digital cable box 3 seconds to
change
> the stinking channel...
>

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Darren New]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> I don't know that Java was invented *specifically* for STBs - I rather
> recall it being something developed because they thought web apps would be
> multi-platform....

Well, I think it was retargetted to that, and renamed "Java".

OK, it was originally called "Oak". (I knew it was something like that.)
Observe http://www.ils.unc.edu/blaze/java/javahist.html which pretty
much implies Java was being offered for sale before Mosaic included the
<IMG> tag.

http://java.sun.com/features/1998/05/birthday.html shows that, wow, it
really was "Green" after all. 

(Note these are the first two Google hits from "Java History" search.)

-- 
Darren New 
San Diego, CA, USA (PST). Cryptokeys on demand.
                   Who is this Dr. Ibid anyway, 
                  and how does he know so much?

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Jeffrey Carter]

Darren New wrote:
> 
> http://java.sun.com/features/1998/05/birthday.html shows that, wow, it
> really was "Green" after all.

"Green"? This thing has more in common with Ada than I realized.

-- 
Jeffrey Carter

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Cesar Rabak]

Jeffrey Carter wrote:
> 
> Darren New wrote:
> >
> > http://java.sun.com/features/1998/05/birthday.html shows that, wow, it
> > really was "Green" after all.
> 
> "Green"? This thing has more in common with Ada than I realized.
> 
In fact, I remember in the early stages of Java being announced
'commercially' that in one list (IIRC 'Objects in the first CS year'),
one poster wrote that "Java" standed for "Just another version of Ada"
;-)

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Wes Groleau]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> I don't know that Java was invented *specifically* for STBs - I rather
> recall it being something developed because they thought web apps would be
> multi-platform....

According to a Sun marketing video, a group was assigned
to develop a set top box or something.  This part of the
video was very unclear.  I had the impression that it was
something like WebTV.

Anyway, they were working in C, and kept having problems
traced to certain kinds of mistakes.  So they invented
a language in which you could not make those kinds of mistakes.

Joy or Gosling (I forgot which, they were both in the video)
held up a book on C with lots of stuff lined out and said
something like, "Basically, we just went through here and
deleted everything that was causing us problems."

Then somebody else saw it and thought, "Hey, we could sell this!"

Really.  I saw it.  It really was like that.  Honest.

OK, my bias may have colored my report a little--but not much!

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Marin David Condic]

O.K. I'll accept that story. However, that sounds more like Necessity being
the Mother of Invention. (Or is it Necessity Is The Mother Of Futile Dodges
:-) In either case, it doesn't sound like somebody said: "Since we have to
program STBs, let's design a language that is suited to STB software
development..." That seems different than "Lets use a subset of C because we
are having trouble with full-up C...  Hey wait a minute! This is a new
language!!!!"

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/

>
> According to a Sun marketing video, a group was assigned
> to develop a set top box or something.  This part of the
> video was very unclear.  I had the impression that it was
> something like WebTV.
>
> Anyway, they were working in C, and kept having problems
> traced to certain kinds of mistakes.  So they invented
> a language in which you could not make those kinds of mistakes.
>
> Joy or Gosling (I forgot which, they were both in the video)
> held up a book on C with lots of stuff lined out and said
> something like, "Basically, we just went through here and
> deleted everything that was causing us problems."
>
> Then somebody else saw it and thought, "Hey, we could sell this!"
>
> Really.  I saw it.  It really was like that.  Honest.
>
> OK, my bias may have colored my report a little--but not much!
>
> --
> Wes Groleau
> http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Wes Groleau]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> O.K. I'll accept that story. However, that sounds more like Necessity being
> the Mother of Invention. (Or is it Necessity Is The Mother Of Futile Dodges
> :-) In either case, it doesn't sound like somebody said: "Since we have to
> program STBs, let's design a language that is suited to STB software
> development..." That seems different than "Lets use a subset of C because we
> are having trouble with full-up C...  Hey wait a minute! This is a new
> language!!!!"

I left out the part where they did add some OO features (with as little
true engineering as the rest of it).

I also left out my own observation that they did _not_ remove some bad
features of C because, being more experienced, they did not have as many
problems with those features.  They also removed _good_ features
"because
they are unsafe" which Ada and other languages had already proven can
be done safely.

-- 
Wes Groleau
http://freepages.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Ted Dennison]

In article <3BC46184.F88496A8@sparc01.ftw.rsc.raytheon.com>, Wes Groleau says...
>
>http://www.cafeaulait.org/1998august.html
>
>Look for the word "Ada" within it....

Didn't see one. I did see yet another reference to that "ADA" language. Whatever
it is, it must be really bad... :-)

---
T.E.D.    homepage   - http://www.telepath.com/dennison/Ted/TED.html

No trees were killed in the sending of this message. 
However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Marin David Condic]

A distinction that will, unfortunately, be lost on The Unwashed Masses. :-(

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Senior Software Engineer
Pace Micro Technology Americas    www.pacemicro.com
Enabling the digital revolution
e-Mail:    marin.condic@pacemicro.com
Web:      http://www.mcondic.com/


"Ted Dennison" <dennison@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:lA_w7.23197$ev2.31582@www.newsranger.com...
>
> Didn't see one. I did see yet another reference to that "ADA" language.
Whatever
> it is, it must be really bad... :-)
>

Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[M. A. Alves]

> >Look for the word "Ada" within it....
>
> Didn't see one. I did see yet another reference to that "ADA"
> language. Whatever it is, it must be really bad... :-)

It must be "Abortational Data and Algorithms".  It has no website yet, any
volunteers? ;-)

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Re: Gratuitous bashing ?

[Robert*]

In article <3BC46184.F88496A8@sparc01.ftw.rsc.raytheon.com>, Wes says...
>
>http://www.cafeaulait.org/1998august.html
>
>Look for the word "Ada" within it....
>
 
I knew the guy who wrote the above article must be an idiot when I read this:


". C and Fortran are excellent languages for numerics,"

C is excellent for numerics? I am falling over laughing now.

Show me 10 lines of C code, and I'll show you a bug.
Show me 10 lines of C code doing floating point and moving numbers around, and
I'll show you 5 bugs.


What a funny world we live in.