Re: How Ada could have prevented the Red Code distributed denial of service attack.

["Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@home.com>]

Bart.Vanhauwaert@nowhere.be wrote:
> >> Will your junior programmer you just hired program Ada? Really?
> > Very likely, because 'First, 'Last and 'Length are part of the language
> 
> You live in a different world. A junior programmer does generally
> not know anything about Ada.

It is apparently becoming increasingly popular at Universities. I am
not inventing this-- there are refs to this on the net. Even head hunters
in Ontario are aware of this, and we're not a US defence type of "area".
In fact, even Ada jobs are becoming more prevalent (but still a
small segment).

> >> Look : you are coming from an Ada background where arrays are
> >> augmented up to a point where they became a generic object.
> > Whoa! Be careful about your assumptions. I've built my career
> > on C/C++, so don't assume that I come from an Ada background.
> 
> It strikes me as odd that given you have build a career on C/C++
> that you manage to make so many basic mistakes, don't know
> even the basic facts about std::string (see above) and admit
> never have seen a very, very basic construct with std::vector
> earlier in this thread. No way you have done serious work
> in C++ (C maybe, but we all know these are very different
> languages)

First let me formally address your remark from another post :

>> It is true that unless they did something wacky like make it virtual, the
>> C++ inline ++ operator is usually cheap.
>
>Look, you obviously don't know C++ that well, so please refrain from
>going into details and trying to pin C++ as a potentially
>non-optimizeable language on your assumptions which are FALSE.
>There is no question of virtual dispatch in this case as any
>junior C++ programmer will be able to tell you.

You chose to apply my response to an issue that _you_ have
assumed, because it was a personal advantage to you. You
then chose to go beyond that and make what I consider rather
unfriendly remarks. Call me human, but it put me "off". If
I had responded to the remarks at the time, I would have put
you and others _off_. I can now look at it from a distance ;-)

My response was to a more "general case",
since Ted was discussing operator ++() as it is treated in
C++, although admittedly in the loose context of the STL.
Perhaps I should have made that clearer, but I think your
response was unfair and rather unkind.

Finally, I won't get into a "what you know vs what 
I know" kind of debate. This would be counter-productive by
anyone's standards. Nobody cares either.

There may be no question of no "virtual dispatch" in a
specific instance of a STL library component. You may have
assumed a vector class (or some other), but I was speaking 
in C++ general terms about the efficiency of operator ++(). 
Again, addressing Ted's remarks.

So if you reconsider the general case, then yes, you will 
have to admit that of course you can have a virtual 
operator ++() if you should have a reason for it (I can't
imagine one, but when you talk about languages
and features, you don't always care about practical uses).

As for knowledge of the STL:

I'll freely admit that I am no expert on the STL. While you
may have the priviledge to work with STL on your projects, some
of us are still maintaining older projects, with older products.
Hence you can then understand why I don't consider C++ to be
directly liked with the STL (and another reason for it follows).

I have used the STL in the Linux/FreeBSD context, though not
extensively. Part of the reason is the GNU version of it is
not complete nor stable (in terms of changes). I don't like
developing software on a changing "platform". I do expect that
the GNU version of the STL will mature with time, and I look
forward to it (though I'll likely stick with Ada for most of my
Open Sourced work).

I have since been converted to Ada, and so I see even less
reason to go back to the STL, except where my employer may
permit me to use it (ie. making it available, and barring any 
use of Ada).

For my own development, I personally feel that Ada not only 
gives me a superior result and saves me time, it also naturally
encourages better design and modularity. Well goody for me,
I know.

So I hope this helps your understanding ;-)  (emphasis on smiley)

> >> But
> >> only with different syntax on calling the operators than on
> >> a real object.
> > You keep side-stepping the issue, which is:
> >   Ada has safety built into the language.
> >   C++ does not, and users must rely on a library to get safety,
> >       from a library like the STL.
> 
> Yes. But you have not yet proven that one is better than the other.

Well, I may have not done a "convincing" job, but I would think that
it would be somewhat self evident (not necessarily a "proof"). For me
to take Ada seriously, did not take "proof". It only took a reasonable
assurance. The "proof" is coming out in the subsequent experience (I
don't believe there is any real substitute for experience).

If I may summarize with an analogy it would be thusly :

C++ requires you to wear a leather jacket and a helmet (STL) to 
drive your the car.

I am suggesting that neither is necessary in Ada, and hence it 
is much more comfortable to drive a car without a leather 
jacket and helmet. (Safety is already inherent in the language).

Both may tend to the same result, but one is clearly more 
comfortable than the other. A comfortable driver probably encourages
better results, if I extend the analogy further.

Anyway, you'll no doubt discount the analogy as flawed, and so be 
it if you must.

I am just honestly trying to get you (and hopefully others) to 
give honest consideration to the differences and advantages that
may exist in Ada. If after you truly investigate it, and you still 
disagree, then I won't lose any sleep over it. Hopefully however,
you will be a little better informed by the process.

Most people tend to just stay with what they know however, and it 
sometimes takes a little push to get folks to look at something 
new or improved. Especially when marketing says C++ > Ada95.
But Ada95 is definitely in the well _improved_ category, 
since much experience was gained from the original Ada83 language.

[I'm going back to lurking, since my vacation is ending]  :<

For your own benefit (not mine), I hope that you someday take the
time to find out for yourself about Ada95 -- first hand.
-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://members.home.net/ve3wwg