Re: Ada The Best Language?

["Warren W. Gay VE3WWG" <ve3wwg@home.com>]

"Beard, Frank" wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Warren W. Gay VE3WWG [mailto:ve3wwg@home.com]
> > In the UNIX world however, I don't think this thinking is quite so
> mainstream.
> > After all, you want a compiler that fits your
> cost/reliability/conformance/
> > validation requirements. You choose your source control tools on the basis
> > of standards/company mandate/personal preference etc. You choose your
> editor
> > often on religious grounds. You choose your debugger on cost/productivity
> > basis maybe.
> 
> Yes, but a complete bundled package sure would be nice, especially for
> students, novices, and beginners.

OK, I will grant that for perhaps a large number of people _new_ to Ada,
that perhaps a "cohesive whole", an IDE, might be of a great benefit to
many starting out. I was not thinking of students et al, but yes, I'll
concede that to this type of audience, an integrated IDE would eliminate
a lot of "trouble" at a time when they are getting a grip on the other
basics. 

> > Having said all that, I do know that a large portion of these developers
> > like the IDE approach (if given the choice). I myself do not like them,
> > but then, maybe I'm strange that way.
> 
> Well, since you use Ada, I'll still talk to you. ;-)

Ok, good. ;-)

> > I find that the combination of my own modified editor,
> > custom tools, command line editing (emacs mode of course) etc., allow
> > me to be much more effective than any IDE has allowed me to be. Make files
> > do the rest.
> 
> I just don't like the functionality being so disjoint.  I prefer an
> all-in-one tool that automates many things for me in a default kind
> of way.  If I need something special, there is usually a way to change
> the default.

Automation is OK, if sensibly done. I don't like the way the MS Visual
tools work at the "project level". Their make files are basically
unreadable -- I don't like giving up control of my project to any
vendor, Red Hat or not.  After all, there are some things any IDE
will not handle, or handle correctly. There will be times, when I
want to tweak or take control of things manually. Most IDEs don't
leave room for this.

> > Yet I grant that others do like IDEs, and perhaps perform better that
> > way.
> 
> I seem to.

I find that the editors provided with these IDE's, cripple me. If they
would integrate better with user supplied editors, I'd be more generally
favourable towards them.  The MS Visual suite and the Aonix IDE etc,
all have nice colourfull editors -- but crippled in functionality beyond
linking errors to source code. I found myself constantly dropping out
of the IDE, to return to a more editor efficient emacs (BTW, I use a
custom version MicroEMACS, because I have been able to port it to every
UNIX that I've landed on, without much trouble-- saving me from vi, in
most cases. It's small footprint means that you can bring it with you
on one floppy).

> > I personally don't see this "integration matter" as the issue. Management
> > doesn't argue against it at this level -- they site the cost of finding
> > Ada developers, the fact that it is "unusual" or "not popular". They also
> > site that we cannot train people on "Ada" because they themselves may not
> > want to be in that area as a career choice. These are the types of issues
> > I see and hear.  Rarely is the resistance based upon technical/packaging
> > details.
> 
> While I understand what you're saying, having come from a similar
> background, I think the lack of a complete/integrated environment
> is exactly the reason you have the shortage of Ada developers.  I
> like Marin's idea of the "Red Hat" approach to bundling a complete
> and powerful environment.  If someone had the time and inclination,
> they could bundle a package for Unix and one for Windows that
> contained something like (forgive me if I get the tools confused):
> 
> - GtkAda
> - GLIDE
> - GLADE
> - ODBC bindings
> - a database
> - COM/DCOM
> - CORBA
> - etc (whatever I'm forgetting)
> - documentation and examples
> 
> I think it would make an incredible difference.  Being one of those
> that like the IDE approach, I see it all the time in the Windows
> environment.  You can't tell me so many migrated to Windows because
> they like Bill Gates and just want to make him rich.  I have no desire..

You've convinced me, that it would be a "good thing" (tm) (especially,
if the above list was included). It would probably help many to get 
"started". Whether this is going to make the "revolution" or not, I 
guess remains to be tested ;-)

As far as management is concerned, I suppose if developers clamour for
a particular IDE, then this may be important-- at least if management
is sympathetic to its developers.

> Frank

So when will we see version 1.0 ? ;-)

-- 
Warren W. Gay VE3WWG
http://members.home.net/ve3wwg