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From: "Michael P. Card" <michael.p.card@lmco.com>
Subject: Death by analogy Part 2 (was Re: is ada dead?)
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 15:52:39 -0400
Date: 2001-07-09T19:52:39+00:00	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <3B4A0B87.B166655D@lmco.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 3B49D87C.6B349412@PublicPropertySoftware.com

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Hello CLA-

I considered the implied cost/benefit analogy for Ada here to be incorrect, and I addressed that in "Part 1".

As a separate topic, I would also say that RE: development tools for C/C++, the old adage "you get what you pay for" is still true. I have been on
jobs which used the freebie "gcc" tools that come from the RTOS vendor, and I have compared the kind of multi-threaded debugging/etc support that
you get with these tools to those available from third party compiler vendors.

I have heard people make arguments similar to this wire-cutter analogy, e.g. "Yeah, but we get a C/C++ compiler FOR FREE with the operating
system; these other tools cost thousands of dollars per seat! We can't afford that! How much difference could there be?"

It is unfortunate that these kinds of decisions are made at the beginning of a project before their full impact can be known. Only later do
problems like excessive memory usage, poor debugging support, erroneous or inefficient code generation, lack of exception handling etc. become
apparent, and by then it's too late to switch. Money gets wasted in lost productivity every day, and in the end you end up spending far more than
you would have to buy a better tool at the outset.

So, I would say again that even beyond Ada vs. C/C++/Java/C#/fad du jour arguments, there is a "cheap toolset vs. expensive toolset" argument
which is similar in that the "best" answer depends on what kind of job you are doing.

- Mike

Al Christians wrote:

> Jerry Petrey wrote:
> >
> > This is certainly not nonsense.  But don't feel bad.  Many people in
> > the industry are unable to understand the true cost of developing
> > software and only look at the up-front coding costs, tool costs, etc.  > That is one of the main reasons most software is over budget and of
> > poor quality or not even ever delivered.
> >
>
> Suppose you are an electrician and you hear about a new kind of
> wirecutter.  There are studies that say this wirecutter improves
> average productivity by 2%.  If you do the math, you can figure that
> this is worth $2,000 to you over the expected 5 year life of the
> wirecutters.  You go to the store and see $1,295 wirecutter on sale
> next to all the others at $11.  Which pair do you buy?  Which toolmaker
> has biggest market share and good cash flow to finance ways to improve
> their product?
>
> For $1,284 most can think up a reason why they are not average.
>
> Al

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2001-07-09 19:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 161+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2001-07-05 21:56 is ada dead? tyler spivey
2001-07-05 23:11 ` James Rogers
2001-07-06  0:21 ` Gerhard Häring
2001-07-06  2:31 ` wzm
2001-07-06  7:47 ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-06 12:12 ` Martin Dowie
2001-07-06 21:33   ` Bobby D. Bryant
2001-07-06 14:04 ` Marin David Condic
     [not found]   ` <3B45E0E9.E3E7BB55@nokia.com>
2001-07-06 16:45     ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-06 18:28 ` Robert Dewar
2001-07-06 19:12 ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-07  1:57   ` Adrian Hoe
2001-07-06 21:36     ` Bobby D. Bryant
2001-07-07 10:53       ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-07 18:44         ` James Rogers
2001-07-07 21:19           ` String support (was: is Ada dead?) Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-08  3:15           ` is ada dead? Stephen J. Bevan
2001-07-08  3:46             ` James Rogers
2001-07-08  5:29               ` Stephen J. Bevan
2001-07-09 14:27                 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-08 11:07             ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-08 14:57               ` Stephen J. Bevan
2001-07-08 13:34       ` Me
2001-07-07 18:33     ` James Rogers
2001-07-07 22:41       ` Andrzej Lewandowski
2001-07-08  0:58         ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-09  1:33           ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-08  1:45         ` Jeffrey Carter
2001-07-08 17:19           ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-08 21:28             ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-09  2:46               ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-09 10:36                 ` Mandating code quality (was: is Ada dead?) Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-08 10:52         ` is ada dead? Michal Nowak
2001-07-08 22:38           ` Andrzej Lewandowski
2001-07-09  1:20             ` James Rogers
2001-07-09 14:45               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-09 15:54                 ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-09 20:27                   ` Jerry Petrey
2001-07-09 21:08                     ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-14 16:49                     ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-10 23:59                   ` Why " raj
2001-07-14 16:53                     ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-14 23:14                       ` James Rogers
2001-07-15 22:57                         ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-16 14:00                         ` Trains in the US (was: Why is ada dead?) Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 23:56                 ` Why is ada dead? raj
2001-07-11  2:59                   ` James Rogers
2001-07-09 16:50             ` Michal Nowak
2001-07-15 18:14             ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-16 15:38               ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-16 17:32                 ` Mark Lundquist
2001-07-16 22:18                   ` tmoran
2001-08-01 18:53                     ` "first-mover (dis)advantage" (was Re: is ada dead?) Mark Lundquist
2001-08-02 15:44                       ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-21 16:30                   ` is ada dead? Bertrand Augereau
2001-07-16 18:19                 ` Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-16 18:21                   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-16 20:14                     ` Gary Scott
2001-07-16 18:26                   ` Mark Lundquist
2001-07-16 21:21               ` Michal Nowak
2001-07-10 23:31         ` raj
2001-07-10 23:32         ` raj
2001-07-10 23:46         ` "garbage dumps are full of superior solutions" raj
2001-07-10 23:47         ` Managers believe that Ada programmers are hard to find raj
2001-07-11  9:38           ` Martin Dowie
2001-07-11 12:39           ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-11 17:32           ` Jeffrey Carter
2001-07-11 19:05             ` Pat Rogers
2001-07-07 22:37     ` is ada dead? Andrzej Lewandowski
2001-07-08  1:10       ` James Rogers
2001-07-08  1:47       ` Jeffrey Carter
2001-07-08  9:01       ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-08 10:52       ` Michal Nowak
2001-07-08 22:40         ` Andrzej Lewandowski
2001-07-09  1:48           ` James Rogers
2001-07-09 15:11           ` Jerry Petrey
2001-07-09 16:14             ` Al Christians
2001-07-09 19:35               ` Death by analogy Part 1 (was Re: is ada dead?) Michael P. Card
2001-07-09 19:52               ` Michael P. Card [this message]
2001-07-09 22:07                 ` Death by analogy Part 2 " Al Christians
2001-07-10  3:38                   ` Michael P. Card
2001-07-10  4:54                     ` Al Christians
2001-07-10 10:54                       ` Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-10 16:58                         ` Al Christians
2001-07-10 17:58                           ` William Dale
2001-07-10 18:39                           ` Michael P. Card
2001-07-10 20:10                             ` Ed Falis
2001-07-10 20:46                               ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 20:54                                 ` Ed Falis
2001-07-10 21:15                                   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 21:29                                     ` Ed Falis
2001-07-10 21:10                               ` Al Christians
2001-07-10 21:26                                 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-10 21:26                                 ` Ed Falis
2001-07-10 21:48                                   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 21:56                                   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-11  1:59                                     ` Ed Falis
2001-07-11  2:38                               ` DuckE
2001-07-11 21:00                                 ` Ed Falis
2001-07-12  1:42                                   ` DuckE
2001-07-12 10:54                                   ` UML for Ada raj
2001-07-12  8:03                                 ` Death by analogy Part 2 (was Re: is ada dead?) David Humphris
2001-07-13  2:43                                   ` DuckE
2001-07-23 21:53                                     ` Greg Bek
2001-07-20  7:49                                   ` Lao Xiao Hai
2001-07-10 20:26                             ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 20:39                             ` Al Christians
2001-07-10 20:42                               ` Ed Falis
2001-07-10 20:53                                 ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-10 21:11                               ` Michael P. Card
2001-07-11  5:25                                 ` Ada and UML raj
2001-07-11  9:40                                   ` David C. Hoos, Sr.
2001-07-13 19:00                                   ` Nick Williams
2001-07-13 19:46                                     ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-17  8:25                                       ` David Humphris
2001-07-16  0:56                                     ` Ken Garlington
2001-07-16  1:57                                       ` Ada and UML - Rational dropping Ada? Jeff Creem
2001-07-16 17:37                                         ` Ken Garlington
2001-07-17 18:59                                       ` Ada and UML Simon Wright
2001-07-23 14:38                                         ` John Kern
2001-08-04  6:29                                           ` Simon Wright
2001-07-11  0:25                             ` Sure FIRM is lost, but really, who cares raj
2001-07-11  0:33                             ` Death by analogy Part 2 (was Re: is ada dead?) Robert C. Leif, Ph.D.
2001-07-10 12:58                     ` John Kern
2001-07-10 13:59                   ` Marin David Condic
2001-07-10  1:21               ` is ada dead? Pat Rogers
2001-07-10  2:29                 ` Al Christians
2001-07-09  1:44       ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-08 21:05         ` Bobby D. Bryant
2001-07-09 10:43           ` One True Language (was: is Ada dead?) Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-09 15:09           ` is ada dead? Ted Dennison
2001-07-14 18:40           ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-09  2:37       ` Adrian Hoe
2001-07-07 23:03 ` chris.danx
2001-07-09 15:22   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-09 16:13     ` chris.danx
2001-07-10  9:02     ` Emmanuel Briot
2001-07-10 10:29       ` Contributing patches to GPL Ada projects (was: Is Ada dead?) Larry Kilgallen
2001-07-10 12:44         ` Emmanuel Briot
2001-07-10 15:24           ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 22:33             ` Robert Dewar
2001-07-11  7:46               ` Florian Weimer
2001-07-11 13:07               ` Marc A. Criley
2001-07-11 16:26                 ` Robert Dewar
2001-07-11 13:41               ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-11 16:30                 ` Robert Dewar
2001-07-11 17:45                   ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-14 14:05                     ` Robert Dewar
2001-07-16 15:38                       ` Ted Dennison
2001-07-16 17:37                         ` Ken Garlington
2001-07-11 12:35           ` McDoobie
2001-07-12  8:16             ` Emmanuel Briot
2001-07-14 19:48               ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-15  0:16                 ` McDoobie
2001-07-18 16:17                 ` Stephen Leake
2001-07-18 17:55                   ` Pascal Obry
2001-07-19 23:13                   ` Stefan Skoglund
2001-07-20 17:05                     ` Stephen Leake
2001-07-10 13:58       ` is ada dead? Ted Dennison
2001-07-10 17:04       ` Pascal Obry
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2001-07-09 21:59 Death by analogy Part 2 (was RE: is Ada dead?) Michael P. Card
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