* No Go To's Forever!
@ 2000-03-21 0:00 Bill Dale
2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson
` (5 more replies)
0 siblings, 6 replies; 105+ messages in thread
From: Bill Dale @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
dis90072 wrote:
>
> Having learned ada for the past six months, I have found no reference to
> the 'jump' command. In MSDOS you can use the 'goto' command. Even in
> damn assembler you can jump. What is the equivalent in ada? I have had
> enough of endless 'IF' statements and everlasting case statements. I
> know it might make the program hard to follow, but I don't care! I must
> have it!
> Please......!
> Regards,
> Matt.
Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period.
OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me.
--------------------
No-GOTO Bill
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar ` (2 more replies) 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner ` (4 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Charles Hixson @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Bill Dale wrote: > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. > > -------------------- > No-GOTO Bill Now, now. I'm sure that I've use a goto instruction at least 6 times in the last decade. Well, maybe 5 times. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Ken Garlington 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Gautier 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D7B83B.27DC06C8@earthlink.net>, Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote: > Bill Dale wrote: > > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. Actually the other concern here, apart from having someone who is so ready to use goto despite knowing it will damage the code, is to have someone who cannot *easily* track down for themselves that of course Ada has a goto statement. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Andrew Berg 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Ken Garlington 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > In article <38D7B83B.27DC06C8@earthlink.net>, > Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Bill Dale wrote: > > > > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > > > > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. > > Actually the other concern here, apart from having someone > who is so ready to use goto despite knowing it will damage > the code, is to have someone who cannot *easily* track down > for themselves that of course Ada has a goto statement. > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. Goto damages the code? Is this something like BASIC causing brain damage? Mike Walsh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Andrew Berg 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Andrew Berg @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Michael P. Walsh" wrote: > Robert Dewar wrote: > > > In article <38D7B83B.27DC06C8@earthlink.net>, > > Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote: > > > > Actually the other concern here, apart from having someone > > who is so ready to use goto despite knowing it will damage > > the code, is to have someone who cannot *easily* track down > > for themselves that of course Ada has a goto statement. > > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > > Before you buy. > > Goto damages the code? > > Is this something like BASIC causing brain damage? > > Mike Walsh Only if you don't have protected memory. Now, does BASIC cause brain damage, or does brain damage cause BASIC? That's the question. -andrew ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Andrew Berg @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) dis90072 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > Now, does BASIC cause brain damage, or does brain damage cause BASIC? I once thought it was the former. But then Kemeny & Kurtz decided to release "True BASIC" years after non-programmers were finally starting to use other languages. If that wasn't an odd thing to do, what is? -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Wes Groleau @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` dis90072 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: dis90072 @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Jesus, did the thread really have to be this long? I only asked a question... now I've got replies that fill up a whole screen! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) dis90072 @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) >I only asked a question... now I've got replies that fill up a whole screen! In the absence of actual empirical evidence, everyone is free to have strongly held opinions. ;) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <HKhC4.6117$ZT3.38832@news.pacbell.net>, tmoran@bix.com writes: >>I only asked a question... now I've got replies that fill up a whole screen! > In the absence of actual empirical evidence, everyone is free > to have strongly held opinions. ;) I am sure Tom did not mean to commit the group to avoiding discussion where there _is_ empirical evidence. :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Now, now... he asked for a "jump" statement, not a "goto," and the LRM does not use the word "jump" in section 5.8. Besides, section 5.8 is way down at the end of section 5; it might have been scrolled off his screen... What I want to know is, where the heck is the computed IF statement? This dang language won't even let me assign numeric labels to a line! "Robert Dewar" <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8b8fha$m1h$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > In article <38D7B83B.27DC06C8@earthlink.net>, > Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote: > > Bill Dale wrote: > > > > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > > > > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. > > Actually the other concern here, apart from having someone > who is so ready to use goto despite knowing it will damage > the code, is to have someone who cannot *easily* track down > for themselves that of course Ada has a goto statement. > > > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ken Garlington wrote: > What I want to know is, where the heck is the computed IF statement? This > dang language won't even let me assign numeric labels to a line! > Or more importantly, how does one do the equivalent of an "alter" statement (Cobol) in Ada? What good is a goto statement if you can't dynamically alter its destination? I mean, how can you possibly write serious programs without it? :-) MDC -- ============================================================= Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - 1.800.555.3393 1015-116 Atlantic Boulevard, Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 http://www.quadruscorp.com/ m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m ***PLEASE REMOVE THE "-NOSPAM" PART OF MY RETURN ADDRESS*** Visit my web site at: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Because that's where they keep the money." -- Willie Sutton when asked why he robbed banks. ============================================================= ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <38D8EAC1.2563A49C@quadruscorp.com> "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> writes: > > Ken Garlington wrote: > > What I want to know is, where the heck is the computed IF statement? This > > dang language won't even let me assign numeric labels to a line! > > > Or more importantly, how does one do the equivalent of an "alter" > statement (Cobol) in Ada? What good is a goto statement if you can't > dynamically alter its destination? I mean, how can you possibly write > serious programs without it? I remember using a Basic in which the parameter to the return statement modified the return address in terms of the number of lines before or after the line containing the invoking GoSub statement. A better introduction to the benefits of KISS would be difficult to find. -- Roger Barnett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <550178307wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>, Roger@natron.demon.co.uk (Roger Barnett) writes: > I remember using a Basic in which the parameter to the return statement > modified the return address in terms of the number of lines before or > after the line containing the invoking GoSub statement. > > A better introduction to the benefits of KISS would be difficult to find. And why didn't DEC's legal department sue them for copying the PDP-6 instruction set "skip-return" mechanism ? :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <2000Mar22.131336.1@eisner>, Kilgallen@eisner.decus.org.nospam wrote: > And why didn't DEC's legal department sue them > for copying the PDP-6 instruction set "skip-return" mechanism ? :-) Because there was prior art! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> writes: [...] > Or more importantly, how does one do the equivalent of an "alter" > statement (Cobol) in Ada? What good is a goto statement if you can't > dynamically alter its destination? I mean, how can you possibly write > serious programs without it? > > :-) If you want Intercal, you know where to find it. 8-)} For those not familiar with it, Intercal does not have a goto statement. It has a "come from" statement. The name Intercal, of course, stands for "Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym". But Malbolge is much much worse. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst> Welcome to the last year of the 20th century. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-25 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Richard D Riehle 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Keith Thompson wrote: > > But Malbolge is much much worse. > Never heard of that language. I *did* hear of Befunge, which was probably the most sick, twisted concept for a programming language I've ever seen. Could Malbolge be related to that? MDC -- ============================================================= Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - 1.800.555.3393 1015-116 Atlantic Boulevard, Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 http://www.quadruscorp.com/ m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m ***PLEASE REMOVE THE "-NOSPAM" PART OF MY RETURN ADDRESS*** Visit my web site at: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Because that's where they keep the money." -- Willie Sutton when asked why he robbed banks. ============================================================= ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-25 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Richard D Riehle 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <yecu2hwgakn.fsf@king.cts.com>, Keith Thompson <kst@cts.com> wrote: > "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> writes: > [...] > > Or more importantly, how does one do the equivalent of an "alter" > > :-) > > If you want Intercal, you know where to find it. 8-)} > > For those not familiar with it, Intercal does not have a goto > statement. It has a "come from" statement. The "come from" statement is actually a lot more powerful than the goto statement though. For instance, multiple "come from"s for the same line is one way to implement a multi-threaded algorithm. -- T.E.D. http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-28 0:00 ` Come From Forever! (was: No Go To's Forever!) Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> writes: [...] > The "come from" statement is actually a lot more powerful than the goto > statement though. For instance, multiple "come from"s for the same line > is one way to implement a multi-threaded algorithm. Not the way it's defined in Intercal. If I recall correctly, only one "come from" for a given label can be active at a time. -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst> Welcome to the last year of the 20th century. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Come From Forever! (was: No Go To's Forever!) 2000-03-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-28 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-28 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <yecog80f1vr.fsf@king.cts.com>, Keith Thompson <kst@cts.com> wrote: > Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> writes: > [...] > > The "come from" statement is actually a lot more powerful than the > > goto statement though. For instance, multiple "come from"s for the > > same line is one way to implement a multi-threaded algorithm. > > Not the way it's defined in Intercal. If I recall correctly, only one > "come from" for a given label can be active at a time. That is true for the old C-Intercal (Intercal73?). But for Threaded Intercal multiple "come from"'s are the means of starting new threads. A discussion of the proposed standard is available at http://www.cse.unsw.edu.au/~malcolmr/threaded_intercal.html Here is the relevant exerpt: Initially there is only one thread. New threads are created by using COME FROM statements. Unlike standard C-Intercal, multiple COME FROM statements are allowed for a particular line number. If more than one such COME FROM exists, then the thread shall split into several threads, one for each COME FROM. -- T.E.D. http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: Come From Forever! (was: No Go To's Forever!) 2000-03-28 0:00 ` Come From Forever! (was: No Go To's Forever!) Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> writes: [...] > Initially there is only one thread. New threads are created by using > COME FROM statements. Unlike standard C-Intercal, multiple COME FROM > statements are allowed for a particular line number. If more than one > such COME FROM exists, then the thread shall split into several threads, > one for each COME FROM. hurts. Thank brain you hurts. Thank my very hurts. Thank brain you hurts. Thank Now much. hurts. Thank brain you hurts. Thank my very hurts. Thank brain you hurts. Thank -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst> Welcome to the last year of the 20th century. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-25 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Richard D Riehle @ 2000-03-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <yecu2hwgakn.fsf@king.cts.com>, Keith Thompson <kst@cts.com> wrote: >The name Intercal, of course, stands for "Compiler Language With No >Pronounceable Acronym". > >But Malbolge is much much worse. I personally prefer the DWIM language. All problems are solved with no errors, there is never a run-time error, and one can define fuzzy requirements at any point in the development or maintenance lifecycle. DWIM = Do What I Mean. Richard Riehle ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Gautier 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Gautier @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Charles Hixson wrote: > Now, now. I'm sure that I've use a goto instruction at least 6 times in the > last decade. Well, maybe 5 times. Hum hem. Don't tell it too loud, but -ahem- I confess I've put a *provisory* one in the last month, to debug an interrupt in a sound blaster driver for gnat. Will disappear as soon as possible... _____________________________________________ Gautier -- http://members.xoom.com/gdemont/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Gautier @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Tim Gahnström @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 21 Mar 2000, Charles Hixson wrote: > Bill Dale wrote: > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. > > Now, now. I'm sure that I've use a goto instruction at least 6 times in the > last decade. Well, maybe 5 times. I notice that alot of people really hate gotos... But why is it sooo bad can someone tell me that??? eg. this little snipet to eat spaces andnewlines in a textfiles to get to the first character look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); <<start>> while bool loop skipline(infile); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; if ch=' ' then while ch=' ' loop get(infile,ch); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; goto start; end if; Start_reading the words I assume this is a typical example of bad goto use but I canot figure out why, I think it is nice and easy to read and it takes care of potential ' ',' ','\n','\n',' ',' ','\n' I realize everything is posible to do without gotos but I canot figure out why it is so horible. Please enlighten me. Is goto statments particular slow? Tim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: David Starner @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 22 Mar 2000 00:00:10 +0100, Tim Gahnstr�m <md9tim@mdstud.chalmers.se> wrote: >I notice that alot of people really hate gotos... >But why is it sooo bad can someone tell me that??? This is some real code (from Axelrod's simulation of the Prisoner's Dillema). This, mind you, is opening up the file and basically randomly grabing a function - there is much, much worse in that file alone. FUNCTION K58R(J,M,K,L,R, JA) C BY GLEN ROWSAM C TYPED BY JM k58r=ja ! Added 7/27/93 to report own old value IF (M .GT. 1) GOTO 99 KAM = 0 NPHA = 0 99 IF (KAM .GT. 6) GOTO 87 IF (NPHA .GE. 1) GOTO 89 IF ((M / 18) * 18 .EQ. M .AND. KAM .GT. 2) KAM = KAM - 1 IF ((M / 6) * 6 .NE. M) GOTO 88 IF (K .LT. M) GOTO 10 IF (K * 10 .LT. M * 15) GOTO 11 IF (K .LT. M * 2) GOTO 12 IF (K * 10 .LT. M * 25) GOTO 13 GOTO 88 10 KAM = KAM + 2 11 KAM = KAM + 1 12 KAM = KAM + 1 13 KAM = KAM + 1 NPHA = 2 GOTO 87 89 NPHA = NPHA - 1 IF (NPHA .EQ. 0) GOTO 87 88 K58R = 0 GOTO 86 87 K58R = 1 86 RETURN END Much of the blame for goto hating must go to FORTRAN <= 77, which requires goto's for common stuff and provides only numeric labels. >I assume this is a typical example of bad goto use At first glance I don't think it works, and it would be a little easier to read if you used control structures instead of gotos, but it's not a typical example. >Is goto statments particular slow? No, but a modern compiler can frequently handle the other control structures faster (more information to optimize with.) Anyway, the arguments against gotos has always been that they're hard to read, and that readibility should come before optimization. -- David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org Only a nerd would worry about wrong parentheses with square brackets. But that's what mathematicians are. -- Dr. Burchard, math professor at OSU ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Tim Gahnstr�m 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.0003212347450.15450-100000@fraggel81.mdstud.chalm ers.se>, =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Tim_Gahnstr=F6m?= <md9tim@mdstud.chalmers.se> wrote: > I realize everything is posible to do without gotos > but I canot figure out why it is so horible. > Please enlighten me. > Is goto statments particular slow? > > Tim Gotos often make simple code hard to read. Your example is a good one! <<start>> while bool loop skipline(infile); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; if ch=' ' then while ch=' ' loop get(infile,ch); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; goto start; end if; The following is preferable in every way. It makes the exit condition from the outer loop far clearer (not to mention making it clearer that there *is* an outer loop! loop while bool loop skipline(infile); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; exit when ch /= ' '; while ch=' ' loop get(infile,ch); look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); end loop; end loop; It is shorter and clearer. <<Is goto statments particular slow?>> No, the concern is not for efficiency at all! There are (rare) cases where gotos are appropriate, but they are few and far between, and your example is a good one showing why gotos should not generally be used. In fact gotos are so often misused that some people go to the extreme of saying they should never ever be used. This approach is excessive, but has the advantage of completely eliminating the kind of misuse you illustrate in your example. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Keith Thompson ` (2 more replies) 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Tim Gahnstr�m 1 sibling, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert Dewar" <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8b93n3$8ai$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > <<Is goto statments particular slow?>> > No, the concern is not for efficiency at all! You're the expert, of course, but I'm surprised by this answer. I thought that structured code in general allowed for easier determination of scope, making certain optimizations more likely to be applied. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> writes: > "Robert Dewar" <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:8b93n3$8ai$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > <<Is goto statments particular slow?>> > > No, the concern is not for efficiency at all! > > You're the expert, of course, but I'm surprised by this answer. I thought > that structured code in general allowed for easier determination of scope, > making certain optimizations more likely to be applied. It depends on the compiler. In the old TeleSoft compiler, certain optimizations were turned off for any scope containing a goto statement. This wasn't strictly necessary, but performing the necessary analysis would have required substantial extra time (development time, not necessarily compilation time), and it wasn't considered worth the effort. I suspect most compiler back-ends work on a lower level and are not as easily intimidated by gotos. As for stylistic concerns, IMHO gotos are very rarely appropriate. The exceptions are: to simulate a structured construct missing from the language (e.g., a multi-level break or exception handler in C, or *possibly* a continue statement in Ada), or when a goto accurately reflects the abstraction being modeled (e.g., in a finite state machine). -- Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst> San Diego Supercomputer Center <*> <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst> Welcome to the last year of the 20th century. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Keith Thompson @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <TnVB4.10962$624.1043257@news.flash.net>, "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote: > "Robert Dewar" <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote in message > news:8b93n3$8ai$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > > <<Is goto statments particular slow?>> > > No, the concern is not for efficiency at all! > > You're the expert, of course, but I'm surprised by this answer. I thought > that structured code in general allowed for easier determination of scope, > making certain optimizations more likely to be applied. Well that is true in some cases, but if gotos are simply used to duplicate more rational control structures, then typical optimizers are not affected. For example, for the two pieces of code here (the original version with a goto, and the replacement version with a loop), most optimizers will produce identical code. I really think that the concern with not using gotos has nothing to do with efficiency. Indeed, it takes a very strong optimizer to recover the efficiency of a goto in some cases. FOr example, consider the two representations of a finite state machine <<state1>> .... goto state2; case state1 is .... current_state := state2; it is quite difficult for an optimizer to recover the goto structure from the case statement, and indeed I have not worked with any compiler that manages to eliminate the loop and case statement in the second case. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <TnVB4.10962$624.1043257@news.flash.net>, "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote: > You're the expert, of course, but I'm surprised by this > answer. I thought > that structured code in general allowed for easier > determination of scope, making certain optimizations more > likely to be applied. Here is another way of answering this that may be clearer. Yes, structured code is easier to optimize But, a goto does not make code unstructured per se. The goto makes it possible to write nasty hard-to-optimize code in this respect, but the mere use of a goto does not mean that you are in fact creating unstructured code. After all the little example here that was given (the blanks eater with the goto) is perfectly well structured (single entry-single exit, well formed loops etc, just not very clear! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert Dewar" <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:8bapmj$2o0$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > > Here is another way of answering this that may be clearer. > > Yes, structured code is easier to optimize > > But, a goto does not make code unstructured per se OK, sure. I thought you were making a more general statement. Maybe my sensitivity to the issue has to do with all those years working with that TeleSoft widget :) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Tim Gahnstr�m 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Tim Gahnstr�m @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) >Gotos often make simple code hard to read. Your example is >a good one! Gusch I just tried my exact exampel in a lab I handed in. I got this answer when i got it back. "Usch you have used gotos in your lab, I can never make my fingers approve a lab where gotos have been used" (translated it myself so it is not the exact words). So I assume it must be verry ugly in some peoples eys :-( Tim ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); > <<start>> > while bool loop > skipline(infile); > look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); > end loop; > > if ch=' ' then > while ch=' ' loop > get(infile,ch); > look_ahead(in_file,ch,bool); > end loop; > goto start; > end if; How about: loop look_ahead(in_file,ch,got_eol); if got_eol then skipline(infile); elsif ch = ' ' get(infile, ch); else exit; end loop; It's shorter, the logic of what's going on is clearer, only a single line needs to be changed to add tab skipping, there's only one way to enter the code sequence (no distant "goto start") so the first reference to bool or ch is guaranteed to come *after* the look_ahead call that sets their values, and, since the compiler can tell the control flow, it can do better optimization. >I realize everything is posible to do without gotos >but I canot figure out why it is so horible. A piece of logic expressed with loops, ifs, cases, and subroutine calls is almost always clearer (and therefore less likely to be erroneous) and is commonly also shorter than the (attempted) equivalent using goto. In MSDOS .bat and assembler you have no choice but to use a jump/goto. Your toolset is bigger now, learn to use it. >I know it might make the program hard to follow, but I don't care! But a hard to follow program is hard to debug and hard to extend, and therefore worth less. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-24 0:00 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <0mVB4.193$2K6.17499@news.pacbell.net>, tmoran@bix.com wrote: > How about: > > loop > look_ahead(in_file,ch,got_eol); > if got_eol then > skipline(infile); > elsif ch = ' ' > get(infile, ch); > else > exit; > end loop; OK, but that is really changing the algorithm, which is not always a satisfactory response. FOr example, if I offer the following sorting algorithm: <<Do_It_Again>> for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop if D (J) < D (J + 1) then Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); goto Do_It_Again; end if; end loop; then you could show me a (much more efficient) bubble sort (which zips along at O(N**2) instead of the shorter algorithm above which is O(N**3)) but that would not really speak to the use of a goto in the above algorithm (I actually prefer the above statement with a goto, which really in this case is just a neat way of writing tail recursion) to the use of boolean flags etc. Of course you could argue that it is easier to find your refined superior form from my syntactic expression with nested loops than from the original with a goto, and that would be an interesting argument to make. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-24 0:00 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > Of course you could argue that it is easier to find your refined > superior form from my syntactic expression with nested loops > than from the original with a goto, and that would be an > interesting argument to make. I'll make that argument. "while" etc make the flow clearer, and thus easier to understand and improve, than goto's. > <<Do_It_Again>> > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > goto Do_It_Again; > end if; > end loop; I personally find this clearer, even if a tad longer: loop J := D'first; while J < D'last and then D(J) >= D(J+1) loop J := J+1; end loop; exit when J >= D'last; Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); end loop; > After all the little example here that was given (the blanks > eater with the goto) is perfectly well structured (single > entry-single exit, well formed loops etc, just not very clear! Actually, it had two different entrances: one at the top just before the initial lookup, and another, which presumably should never be used, at the label just after that lookup. One could imagine a program with a typo where a "goto starter" was mis-written as "goto start". The result might be nasty, the compiler not help, and that kind of typo is notoriously hard to spot. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <yP9C4.1507$ZT3.32509@news.pacbell.net>, tmoran@bix.com wrote: > I personally find this clearer, even if a tad longer: > loop > J := D'first; > while J < D'last and then D(J) >= D(J+1) loop > J := J+1; > end loop; > exit when J >= D'last; > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > end loop; Well that's a different algorithm. It tests J against D'Last twice as often as my formulation. Yes, perhaps a clever compiler will be able to rescue this, but algorithmically, this simply is not equivalent. Actually most compilers won't fix this, so you will find that your version actually does run noticably slower that the original. Yes, code duplication is one way of getting around the goto here, but again you are changing the algorithm. Please tackle the harder problem: Take the algorithm *I* presented, and remove the goto without changing the sequence of computations, and see if that result is clearer. P.S. I don't find your changed algorithm clearer, precisely because of the peculiar duplicated check. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) >Well that's a different algorithm. It tests J against D'Last >twice as often as my formulation. I would hardly call that a different algorithm. Rather a different implementation of the same algorithm. But if you want to call it different... >Actually most compilers won't fix this, so you will find that >your version actually does run noticably slower that the >original. Right. For each call on Swap and restart of the scanning, plus one additional time, J will be compared against D'last. That's going to be a relatively miniscule slowdown. If the data is in order, yours does N comparisons against J and mine does N+1. If the data is sorted backwards, the worst case, yours does N + N*(N-1)/2 + N*(N-1)*(N-2)/6 comparisons against J and mine does an additional N*(N-1)/2+1 That's 66% more when N=2 (5 vs 3) declining to 3% more when N=100 (171,701 vs 166,750) and so forth. Hardly "twice as many". And nobody who cared would use this algorithm anyway. >Please tackle the harder problem: Take the algorithm *I* >presented, and remove the goto without changing the sequence >of computations, and see if that result is clearer. > <<Do_It_Again>> > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > goto Do_It_Again; > end if; > end loop; This should be pretty close to the same run-time sequence of machine operations, so I hope you'll accept it as "the same algorithm". I don't find it as clear as the "changed algorithm" method. J := D'first; while J < D'last loop if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far J := J+1; -- continue else Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item J := D'first; -- and start over end if; end loop; >P.S. I don't find your changed algorithm clearer, precisely >because of the peculiar duplicated check. Perhaps some comments would help? loop J := D'first; while J < D'last and then D(J) >= D(J+1) loop -- compare J := J+1; -- continue if in order end loop; exit when J >= D'last; -- If at end, we can't swap, but are done. Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- Otherwise move item end loop; -- and start over So gotos may be appropriate for Adventure games and other FSMs, but a goto doesn't buy much for this sort algorithm. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <HRkC4.1999$U95.38761@news.pacbell.net>, tmoran@bix.com wrote: > >Well that's a different algorithm. It tests J against D'Last > >twice as often as my formulation. > I would hardly call that a different algorithm. Rather a > different implementation of the same algorithm. But if you > want to call it different... Of course it is different, it does a different sequence of computations. The algorithm you give is computationally equivalent, but you actually need to prove this, it is not self evident! An algorithm is a prescription for a sequence of computations, a different sequence is a different algorithm! > That's > going to be a relatively miniscule slowdown. If the data is > in order, yours does N comparisons against J and mine does > N+1. > If the data is sorted backwards, the worst case, yours does > N + N*(N-1)/2 + N*(N-1)*(N-2)/6 comparisons against J and mine > does an additional N*(N-1)/2+1 That's 66% more when N=2 (5 vs 3) > declining to 3% more when N=100 (171,701 vs 166,750) and so forth. > Hardly "twice as many". And nobody who cared would use this > algorithm anyway. Yes, but we are not talking efficiency here, we are talking expression of algorithms. It is a sloppy response to change the algorithm and then claim that pragmatically it is just as good. That's not the point here at all. We are not trying to write efficient sorting algorithms (this particular algorithm is of course chosen to be space efficient). Now let's look at your attempted rewrite: J := D'first; while J < D'last loop if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far J := J+1; -- continue else Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item J := D'first; -- and start over end if; end loop; The objection here is again to the duplicated code. You have to study this to see that the two assignments to J are identical. Yes, in a trivial case like this, the code duplication is small, but you must see that it is interesting that your only solutions so far involve code duplication to get rid of the goto. It is not at ALL clear that this is a good trade off. Additional code, other things being equal is unlikely to be a good thing. In a larger example, you can find the code duplication getting worse, and even need to introduce a procedure to minimize it. (side comment: from a pragmatic point of view, the reason we use this algorithm is that it is short, so making it longer by duplicating code is a bit counter productive). Pragmatically of course, the whole idea of the that J is always D'First. Unlike my original, where this is evident without scanning the program, here you have a loop whose advertised invariant. I still find the original far clearer. Note that you felt it was necesary to comment the reassignment to J as "start over", but what could be clearer code to match the conceptual idea of "start over" than going back to the beginning. Really it is just like an instruction in a manual saying, "Now you have completed your first reading, turn back to page 1 and start reading again". Let's once again look at my original: > <<Do_It_Again>> > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > goto Do_It_Again; > end if; > end loop; Just for interest, note that my version has 7 lines, 48 tokens ' yours has 9 lines, 60 tokens Furthermore, you have lost the fundamental point that the inner loop is a FOR loop. We always prefer for loops to while loops since they lead to a much clearer notion of total correctness. Yes, it is true that the outer loop is a while loop and that is fundamental, but I find your formulation really obscures the fact that we have two nested loops here. In fact I would NEVER rewrite this algorithm the way you did if I did not have a goto. Instead I would write it this way if I had a continue statement: Outer : loop Inner : for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop if D (J) < D (J + 1) then Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); continue Outer; end if; end loop Inner; exit Outer; end loop Outer; That's also 9 lines, and 58 tokens, but preserves the essential element of two nested loops. If your coding standards allow limited use of gotos to simulate CONTINUE then that's the best approach if you are not allowed the original goto. If you are writing in Ada with your hands tied behind your back (no gotos) then the clearest formulation is Continue := True; Outer : while Continue loop Continue := False; Inner : for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop if D (J) < D (J + 1) then Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); Continue := True; exit Inner; end if; end loop Inner; end loop Outer; I am not very fond of this idiom for continue (I prefer the goto idiom for continue), but it is very familiar, so it seems fine. This again avoids any code duplication, and preserves the essential structure of the algorithm as two nested loops. Indeed the more I look at your rewriting, the less I like it, you have replaced a goto you don't like with spaghetti assignments that obscure the structure of the algorithm. Replacing a for loop with a while loop with an increment is bad in any case. Replacing it with a while loop that plays games with the control variable to obtain the effect of two nested loops expressed with one loop at the syntactic level is really quite nasty. I am always amazed by the extent to which people are willing to go in writing obscure code to avoid gotos; A triumph of form over substance :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Jeff Carter @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > Let's once again look at my original: > > > <<Do_It_Again>> > > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > > goto Do_It_Again; > > end if; > > end loop; > Continue := True; > Outer : while Continue loop > Continue := False; > Inner : for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > Continue := True; > exit Inner; > end if; > end loop Inner; > end loop Outer; Personally, I find both of these a bit difficult to follow due to the lack of documentation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a variation on the goto-less version is easier to document because the 2 loop are explicit: -- Sort D into descending order Repeat_Until_Sorted : loop Sorted := True; -- Assume D is sorted Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair : for J in D'First .. D'Last - 1 loop if D (J) < D (J + 1) then -- Found an out-of-order pair if True Swap (D (J), D (J + 1) ); Sorted := False; -- We have not determined that D is sorted exit Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair; -- Repeat to see if D now sorted end if; end loop Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair; exit Repeat_Until_Sorted when Sorted; -- Did not find out-of-order pair if Sorted end loop Repeat_Until_Sorted; Now I can see what the algorithm is doing: It scans D looking for an out-of-order pair of adjacent values. If it doesn't find one, then D is sorted. If it does find one, it swaps them and repeats the entire process. This looks like elimination of tail-recursion: Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair : for J in D'First .. D'Last - 1 loop if D (J) < D (J + 1) then Swap (D (J), D (J + 1) ); Sort (D); exit Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair; end if; end loop Find_Out_Of_Order_Pair; -- Jeff Carter "Now go away or I shall taunt you a second time." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38DA9505.F1AE2989@acm.org>, jrcarter@acm.org wrote: > Robert Dewar wrote: > > Let's once again look at my original: > > > > > <<Do_It_Again>> > > > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > > > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > > > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > > > goto Do_It_Again; > > > end if; > > > end loop; > > > Continue := True; > > Outer : while Continue loop > > Continue := False; > > Inner : for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > > Continue := True; > > exit Inner; > > end if; > > end loop Inner; > > end loop Outer; > > Personally, I find both of these a bit difficult to follow due to the > lack of documentation. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think a variation on the > goto-less version is easier to document because the 2 loop are explicit: I must say it never occured to me that anyone would have trouble following how this algorithm works. I deliberately chose something so simple that this should not be an issue! But if you do want to document, I suggest doing it with formal proof conditions, you will find my point clearer if you do that. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) >Of course it is different, it does a different sequence of Either you disallow "a different sequence of operations", in which case "Continue := True;" is disallowed, or you allow irrelevant differences and thus the first of the goto-less algorithms. You can't have it both ways. >Yes, but we are not talking efficiency here, Fine. Sorry you brought it up. > J := D'first; > while J < D'last loop > if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far > J := J+1; -- continue > else > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item > J := D'first; -- and start over > end if; > end loop; > > The objection here is again to the duplicated code. You have to > study this to see that the two assignments to J are identical. Huh? Do you mean the two places it does a "J := D'first;"? Hardly what I'd call an obscure statement. >but you must see that it is interesting that your only solutions >so far involve code duplication to get rid of the goto. Yes, gotos allow you to reuse arbitrary segments of code. I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. > We always prefer for loops to while loops since they lead to a > much clearer notion of total correctness. A maintenance programmer, on first glance, will probably see the For 1 .. N-1 and think "Oh, we're doing something N-1 times", which of course is false. On second glance he'll notice the label and realize he needs to study the code further to figure out the exit condition. A While both raises a red flag that this might take a while, and shows directly the exit condition. I find the latter clearer. It's also easier to see the kind of running time with the While loop than with the two, nested, with the inner one aborted, loops. > but I find your formulation really obscures the fact that we have > two nested loops here. Right. I think it's a single code sequence being iterated until everything is in order. It keeps trying to get all the way through D without discovering anything out of order. If it fails, it does a swap and keeps trying. You think of it as two loops, a For and an "if ... goto" loop. > Replacing a for loop with a while loop with an increment is bad > in any case. Replacing it with a while loop that plays games > with the control variable to obtain the effect of two nested > loops expressed with one loop at the syntactic level is really > quite nasty. A While loop by nature does not have an incremented "control variable". It has a condition. It is expected that the actions inside will bring about a state of affairs where that condition is true. This may involve incrementing variables, setting them to D'first, or anything else. > I am always amazed by the extent to which people are willing to > go in writing obscure code to avoid gotos; A triumph of form over > substance :-) I don't think either of the goto-less versions was at all obscure. I do think the goto version requires more study to understand what is going on and thus is more obscure. It also requires examination of the rest of the code to see if there are any other gotos to the label. I prefer the original, shorter, goto-less version, but if the exact same sequence of operations is also required, the second version satisfies. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <tNwC4.964$q41.1034@news.pacbell.net>, tmoran@bix.com wrote: > >Of course it is different, it does a different sequence of > Either you disallow "a different sequence of operations", > in which case "Continue := True;" is disallowed, or you allow > irrelevant differences and thus the first of the goto-less > algorithms. You can't have it both ways. Actually you can, but this is very standard stuff in any formal algorithms book, not worth repeating here. > > >Yes, but we are not talking efficiency here, > Fine. Sorry you brought it up. No, it was not just a matter of efficiency > > > J := D'first; > > while J < D'last loop > > if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far > > J := J+1; -- continue > > else > > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item > > J := D'first; -- and start over > > end if; > > end loop; > > > > The objection here is again to the duplicated code. You have to > > study this to see that the two assignments to J are identical. > Huh? Do you mean the two places it does a "J := D'first;"? > Hardly what I'd call an obscure statement. You are missing the conceptual point here entirely. I can only recommend rereading my previous posts. > >but you must see that it is interesting that your only solutions > >so far involve code duplication to get rid of the goto. > Yes, gotos allow you to reuse arbitrary segments of code. > I don't think that's necessarily a good thing. > > > We always prefer for loops to while loops since they lead to a > > much clearer notion of total correctness. > A maintenance programmer, on first glance, will probably see > the For 1 .. N-1 and think "Oh, we're doing something N-1 > times", which of course is false. On second glance he'll notice > the label and realize he needs to study the code further to > figure out the exit condition. A While both raises a red flag > that this might take a while, and shows directly the exit > condition. I find the latter clearer. It's also easier to see > the kind of running time with the While loop than with the two, > nested, with the inner one aborted, loops. > > > but I find your formulation really obscures the fact that we have > > two nested loops here. > Right. I think it's a single code sequence being iterated until > everything is in order. It keeps trying to get all the way through > D without discovering anything out of order. If it fails, it does > a swap and keeps trying. You think of it as two loops, a For and > an "if ... goto" loop. > > > Replacing a for loop with a while loop with an increment is bad > > in any case. Replacing it with a while loop that plays games > > with the control variable to obtain the effect of two nested > > loops expressed with one loop at the syntactic level is really > > quite nasty. > A While loop by nature does not have an incremented "control > variable". It has a condition. It is expected that the actions > inside will bring about a state of affairs where that condition > is true. This may involve incrementing variables, setting them > to D'first, or anything else. > > > I am always amazed by the extent to which people are willing to > > go in writing obscure code to avoid gotos; A triumph of form over > > substance :-) > I don't think either of the goto-less versions was at all > obscure. I do think the goto version requires more study to > understand what is going on and thus is more obscure. It also > requires examination of the rest of the code to see if there are > any other gotos to the label. I prefer the original, shorter, > goto-less version, but if the exact same sequence of operations > is also required, the second version satisfies. Well if you don't understand why obscuring the two loop structure is a problem, then I guess there is no explaining it any further. But there really is a very fundamental point here. If you want to study it further, try generating the full denotational semantics and in fact try generating the full proof conditions. That will make things clearer I think. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8berdq$j2p$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote: > But there really is a very fundamental point here. If you want > to study it further, try generating the full denotational > semantics and in fact try generating the full proof > conditions. > That will make things clearer I think. To expand on this a bit. There are two loops here. Both are trivially tail recursive. The problem is of course proving *total* correctness in this algorithm, partial correctness is immediately obvious. If you separate the two loops clearly, you find that the proof conditions are very nicely separated. You have of course to introduce the auxiliary variable that shows how sorted the set of data is. You then concentrate on showing that the inner loop increments this auxiliary variable, and that is easy to show in isolation, i.e. by analyzing the inner loop separately. Now once this is shown a simple monotonicity argument applied to the outer loop proves correctness. I continue to be sure that the version in which the two loops are explicit is far clearer to understand and to analyze. It is very interesting that usually we object to gotos because they obscure the control structure, and that here the desparate attempt to get rid of the goto actually ends up *helping* to obscure the control structure. I wonder why it is that people are so allergic to gotos. Oddly this kind of furious allergy seems much more common in the US. Perhaps it is the conviction of the more recently converted. Those who grew up on Algol tend to have an easier time of maintaining a balanced view point :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Kenneth Almquist @ 2000-04-16 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > But there really is a very fundamental point here. If you want > to study it further, try generating the full denotational > semantics and in fact try generating the full proof conditions. > That will make things clearer I think. Here is the "one loop" version of the algorithm, with statement numbers added for reference: 1 J := D'first; 2 while J < D'last loop 3 if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far 4 J := J+1; -- continue 5 else 6 Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item 7 J := D'first; -- and start over 8 end if; 9 end loop; To avoid special cases in the rest of the analysis, we first consider the case where D'last < D'first. To prove termination in this case, we observe that when the loop is first encountered, J = D'first, which is greater than D'last, so the loop is never executed. Since the loop is never executed, it cannot be an infinite loop. To prove correctness, we observe that if D'last < D'first, then D has only one possible value, which is sorted by definition. Therefore the value of D is unchanged by this algorithm, and D is sorted when the algorithm terminates. When D'first <= D'last, the loop invariant is (1) J in D'range and (2) D(D'first .. J) is sorted and (3) D is a permutation of the original D. Condition (1) holds on initial entry to the loop because statement 1 makes it true. Considition (2) holds on initial entry to the loop because J = D'first, and a one element array is sorted by definition. Condition (3) holds because D has not yet been modified. The loop preserves condition (1) because the only statements that modify J are statements 4 and 7. The condition on the while loop ensures means that J < D'last is a precondition to statement 4. After adding 1 to J, J will be less than or equal to D'last. Statement 7 preserves condition (1) because D'first is in D'range. The loop preserves condition (2). Presonditions of statement 4 are D(D'first .. J) is sorted and D(J) >= D(J+1). Since we are sorting in descending order (largest element first), these preconditions imply that D(D'first .. J+1) is sorted. Thus D(D'first .. J) is sorted after J is incremented. Condition (2) is true after statement 7 because a one elment arrary is sorted by definition. The loop preserves condition (3) because the only modifications to D are due to the swap operation in statement 6. A swap operation always results in the value of D being a permuation of the previous value of D. On exit from the loop, we have J <= D'last (due to condition 1 of the loop invariant) and J >= D'last due to the condition on the while loop. Thus J = D'last and condition 2 assures us that D is sorted. Condition 3 assures us that the sorted values correspond to the original values of D. Therefore the algorithm sorts D. To prove termination, we observe that the variables which change while the loop is executing are D and J. Let S be the set of all ordered pairs <D1, J1>, where D1 is a permutation of D and J is in D'range. Let Out_Of_Order(D) be the number of pairs <I, J> such that I < J and D(I) < D(J). (If D is sorted, then Out_Of_Order(D) will be zero.) We define a partial ordering on the possible values of D by sayiung that D1 > D2 if Out_Of_Order(D1) < Out_Of_Order(D2). The possible values of J are already ordered by the integer ">". We now order S lexographically. In other words, <D1, J1> > <D2, J2> iff D1 > D2 or (D1 = D2 and J1 > J2). Each iteration of the while loop will change the state from some state S1 to some new state S2. We observe that S2 > S1. If the condition tested on line 3 is true, then statement 4 will be executed, which increments J and so S2 > S1. If the condition is false, then statement 6 will be executed. Let M be the mapping <I1, K1> -> <I2, K2> where I2 = if I1 = J then J+1 else if I1 = J+1 then J else I1 K2 = if J1 = J then J+1 else if K1 = J+1 then J else K1 For all <I, K> such that I < K and <I, K> /= <J, J+1>, the pair D(I) and D(K) are out of order after statement 6 is executed iff D(I2) and D(K2) are out of order before statement 6 is executed, order, where <I2, K2> = M(I, K). Since M is bijective, the number of out of order pairs, exclusive of <J, J+1>, is not changed by the execution of statement 6. The conditional on line 3 ensures that the pair D(J), D(J+1) is out of order before statement 6 is executed. After the swap operation in statement 6 is performed, this pair will no longer be out of order, so the number of out of order pairs will be decreased by one and again we have S2 > S1. The number of elements in S is finite, because S is the cross product of a finite set of permutations (Ada does not permit an array with an infinite number of elements to be declared) and a finite set of integer values (again, D'range must be finite). Since the program state inside the loop consists of a series of nonrepeating values chosen from a finite set, the loop must terminate. This concludes the proof. Now consider the two loop version, rewritten using the 'first and 'last attributes to match the previous code: 1 <<Do_It_Again>> 2 for J in D'first .. D'last - 1 loop 3 if D (J) < D (J + 1) then 4 Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); 5 goto Do_It_Again; 6 end if; 7 end loop; As with the previous algorithm, we cover the case where D'first > D'last separately. By the same argument, the algorithm terminates with the correct result in this case. To handle the normal case (D'first <= D'last), we start with the "for" loop on line 2. Rather than define a loop invariant, we define a condition that will hold on entry to the loop and will be preserved by the loop unless conditional on line 3 becomes true. This "semi-invariant" is: (1) J in D'range, and (2) D(D'first .. J) is sorted Condition (1) holds on entry to the loop because D'first is in D'range. Condition (2) holds on entry to the loop because a one element array is sorted by definition. The loop preserves condition (1) because the loop will exit when J = (D'last - 1) + 1. The loop preserves condition (2) unless the conditional on line 3 becomes true. Since we are sorting in descending order, if the conditional on line 3 is false then when we increment J at the end of the loop condition (2) remains true. The program terminates when the "for" loop exits normally (as opposed to via the goto statement). When this happens, the "semi-invariant" for the "for" loop will be true becase if the conditional on line 3 had become true the "for" loop would have exited via the goto statement instead of exiting normally. The loop conditional implies that J = (D'last - 1) + 1 = D'last. Thus D(D'first .. D'last) is sorted. To complete the proof of correctness, we need to add a global invariant to the program: The value of D is a permuation of the original value of D. This invariant is true at the start of the program because the original value of D is a permuation of itself. The program preserves this invariant because the only statement that modifies D is the swap operation at line 4, and swaping preserves the invariant. Thus the final value of D is a sorted permutation of the original value of D, which proves partial correctness. To prove termination, we first observe that the "for" loop on line 2 will terminate because all "for" loops terminate. We then define an ordering on the set of all possible values of D using the same definition as we used for the other algorithm. Using an argument similar to the one we used for the "one loop" algorithm, we prove that the value of D after statement 4 is executed will be greater than the value of D before statement 4 is executed (using the ordering on the values of D specified in the preceding sentence). Since the number of possible values of D is finite, and since no statements other than statement 4 modify D, statement 4 can only be executed a finite number of times. Therefore the goto at line 5 can only be executed a finite number of times, and both loops in the program will terminate. Therefore, the program will terminate, which completes the proof. This is considerably shorter than the proof for the "one loop" algorithm, but most of the difference is because I haven't repeated details that were spelled out in the first proof. The proof of termination is simpler because we don't have to worry about J; it is now the control variable of a "for" loop. On the other hand, the second algorithm has a more complicated flow of control, which complicates the proof in various small ways. Overall I don't see much difference in the complexity of the proofs. What does differ, at least for me, is the difficulty of finding the proofs. The first proof is basicly a "fill in the blanks" proof. I know the overall structure of a correctness proof for a "while" loop; the work consists of filling in the details. The second algorithm consists of two overlapping loops. I've never tried to prove correctness of an algorithm with this structure before, and thus had no idea of how to begin to construct the proof. I suppose that this is a matter of inexperience; if I had done more work with correctness proofs I might have found both proofs about equally easy to construct. I expect that many people besides myself lack experience in proving correctness of programs containing goto statements, because goto statements are used infrequently in modern software, and even less frequently in computer science texts. Kenneth Almquist ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist @ 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-17 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <sfke9p2pivv17@corp.supernews.com>, ka@exit109.com (Kenneth Almquist) wrote: > Robert Dewar wrote: > > But there really is a very fundamental point here. If you > > want > > to study it further, try generating the full denotational > > semantics and in fact try generating the full proof conditions. > > That will make things clearer I think. Interesting post, but I am afraid not quite I asked for, the most important word in my above quote here is denotational. You gave a proof in terms of operational semantics, and I will repeat my claim that you will more easily see the fundamental difference between the two algorithms if you look at things at a higher level, which is where the denotational semantics will lead you. Basically you want to think in terms of what the parts of the program *mean* instead of what they *do*, and that of course is the fundamental distinction between denotational and operational semantics. True the distinction is not always clear. Indeed Ada/Ed was in many respects an operational version of a denotational semantic definition for Ada. At an operational level, it is fairly easy to see that the two forms are equivalent, as you show in your proof, but it is much more difficult to see this equivalence at the denotational semantic level. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-17 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <sfke9p2pivv17@corp.supernews.com>, ka@exit109.com (Kenneth Almquist) wrote: > Robert Dewar wrote: > > But there really is a very fundamental point here. If you want > > to study it further, try generating the full denotational > > semantics and in fact try generating the full proof conditions. > > That will make things clearer I think. Incidentally, one more point, to construct the denotational semantics of the original formulation with the goto is not quite trivial. Obviously you don't want to describe the goto as a general goto (the denotational semantics of general gotos are gruesome, see the original Ada/Ed implementation for some indication of what I mean). This goto is really a special kind of loop construct, and indeed in a language with a bit more general control over loops (e.g. SETL) you would not use a goto at all for the outer loop, since it can be formulated more clearly. Basically the goto here is a "repeat loop q" construct, and that has a fairly simple denotational semantics. Indeed in this particular case, you can of course get rid of the goto by replacing it with a simple tail recursion, and the denotational semantics should reflect such a replacement. I sometimes wonder if people who have a hard time with gotos in general also have a hard time with recursion. For me, the goto that replaces a tail recursive call is a very special case, and I regard it as simply a minor syntactic variation on the tail recursive call (a good compiler will convert such a tail recursion to the goto in any case). Yes, general gotos can be a horrible mess, but the special case used here of a goto that simply reflects a normal tail recursive structure seems quite straightforward to me, and I see no more reason for forbidding it than I would see for forbidding tail recursion :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough 2000-04-18 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Dale Stanbrough @ 2000-04-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > (a good compiler will convert such > a tail recursion to the goto in any case) I suppose the stand out question is... "is gnat a good compiler?" dale :-) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough @ 2000-04-18 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: David Starner @ 2000-04-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:33:38 +1000, Dale Stanbrough <dale@cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote: >Robert Dewar wrote: > >> (a good compiler will convert such >> a tail recursion to the goto in any case) > > >I suppose the stand out question is... > > "is gnat a good compiler?" Current versions of gnat will do some, but not a whole lot of tail recursion. Future versions based on gcc 3.0 will be better at this, or so I am lead to believe. You can always make some sample programs and dump to assembly and check if it does where you need it to. -- David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org Only a nerd would worry about wrong parentheses with square brackets. But that's what mathematicians are. -- Dr. Burchard, math professor at OSU ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough 2000-04-18 0:00 ` David Starner @ 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-18 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <dale-32C6F4.09333818042000@news.rmit.edu.au>, Dale Stanbrough <dale@cs.rmit.edu.au> wrote: > Robert Dewar wrote: > > > (a good compiler will convert such > > a tail recursion to the goto in any case) > > I suppose the stand out question is... > > "is gnat a good compiler?" > > dale :-) gcc certainly recognizes tail recursion and optimizes it, so the answer (in this limited respect at least :-) is yes! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar ` (2 more replies) 2 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Martin Dowie @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) speaking of proving things... one of the reasons I had always been told for avoiding using gotos, was that it makes a program unprovable. a) was this true; and if so, b) is this still true? Robert Dewar wrote: > Of course it is different, it does a different sequence of > computations. The algorithm you give is computationally > equivalent, but you actually need to prove this, it is not > self evident! An algorithm is a prescription for a sequence > of computations, a different sequence is a different algorithm! ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38E1F6D5.8303903C@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk>, Martin Dowie <martin@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk> wrote: > speaking of proving things... > > one of the reasons I had always been told for avoiding using gotos, was > that it makes a program unprovable. a) was this true; and if so, b) is > this still true? Well it's an overstatement, obviously limited forms of gotos are totally equivalent to simple control structures and thus neither harder or easier to prove correct. It is true that the denotational semantics of a general goto is very tricky. If any of you can dig out ancient materials, have a look at the source code of Ada/Ed. This was basically an executable denotational semantics. At this level, an if statement was coded something like: if evaluate (expression) = true then replace if with then part else replace if with else part end; the coding for goto was really complex and horrible (and interestingly REALLY inefficient :-) So yes, general gotos can definitely make proof of correctness more difficult. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Martin Dowie <martin@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk> writes: > one of the reasons I had always been told for avoiding using gotos, was > that it makes a program unprovable. a) was this true; No. > and if so, b) is this still true? No. (Why should it have changed, BTW? I wouldn't call something unprovable unless it has been proven to be unprovable.) One of the standard textbooks in computer science uses gotos quite heavily, and it contains correctness proofs. Although the proofs are not "formal", and neither is the algorithm description, they are more substantial than the "formal" proofs which I've seen at the local CS department. BTW: What does "formal program verification" mean in practice? I was told that it must involve quantifiers and other fancy stuff. Is this true, or are rigid, but non-formal proofs considered sufficient (i.e. proofs whose formalization is easy, but tedious work, and which would result in proofs nobody could understand). After attending some CS courses, I should probably know it, but our formal program verification exercises where quite a nightmare (for example, we should prove the correctness of an implementation without having the specification). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Florian Weimer @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-30 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <874s9p7jwi.fsf@deneb.cygnus.argh.org>, Florian Weimer <fw-usenet@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> wrote: > Martin Dowie <martin@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk> writes: > > > one of the reasons I had always been told for avoiding using gotos, was > > that it makes a program unprovable. a) was this true; > > No. I disagree as per previous note > > > and if so, b) is this still true? > > No. I disagree as per previous node >Why should it have changed, BTW? Becauswe proof of correctness techniques have improved! > One of the standard textbooks in computer science uses gotos > quite > heavily, and it contains correctness proofs. Although the proofs are > not "formal", informal proofs are a long way from proof of correctness. For formal proof of correctness you need a formal specification of the language, and that formal specification is definitely made much more complex by the inclusion of a general goto statement. > and neither is the algorithm description, they are more > substantial than the "formal" proofs which I've seen at the > local CS department. I have no idea what substantial means in this respect, but a formal proof of correctness of a program is a rather definite process, involving typically the use of a program to resolve proof obligations (have a look for example at the Praxis tools in this area). > BTW: What does "formal program verification" mean in practice? It means a formal proof of semantic equivalence of a program with a form spec, where the languages are formally defined. > I was told that it must involve quantifiers and other fancy > stuff. Well there is nothing "fancy" about a quantifier. Certainly most proof of correctness techniques make use of predicate algebra and set theory, and other simple basic mathematics. > Is this true, or are rigid, but non-formal proofs considered > sufficient I have no idea what a "rigid" proof might be. Any non-formal proof is suspect. For example, it is infeasible to prove any program written in Ada 95 as such, due to a lack of a formal definition of the semantics of Ada 95. Praxis uses a well defined (i.e. formally defined) subset of the language for its proof arena. > (i.e. proofs whose formalization is easy, but tedious work, > and which would result in proofs nobody could understand). It is not really important if a human can understand a proof, if all proof obligations have been satisfied algorithmicly using a verifier. > After attending some CS > courses, I should probably know it, but our formal program verification > exercises where quite a nightmare (for example, we should prove the > correctness of an implementation without having the specification). Obviously that's not quite right as stated, the concept of total correctness requires a specification of what correct means. On the other hand, you can prove certain properties of a program without a spec, e.g. that it terminates for all inputs, or that it cannot raise an exception etc. > Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-30 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2000-03-30 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > On the other hand, you can prove certain properties of a program > without a spec, e.g. that it terminates for all inputs, or that > it cannot raise an exception etc. To me, that seems like a more useful approach in most circumstances. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-30 0:00 ` Robert A Duff @ 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <wcczorgbgwi.fsf@world.std.com>, Robert A Duff <bobduff@world.std.com> wrote: > Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > > > On the other hand, you can prove certain properties of a program > > without a spec, e.g. that it terminates for all inputs, or that > > it cannot raise an exception etc. > > To me, that seems like a more useful approach in most > circumstances. I would have said more practical. Obviously it is more useful if you can indeed prove your program meets the formal specification, but often no such exists, or it is infeasible to carry out the full proof. On the other hand, tasks like the ones mentioned above may be feasible even if both these conditions hold :-) That is why proof of correctness techniques are a valuable tool that all programmers should have a good awareness of, even if you are not in situations where full proofs are feasible. Unfortunately, especially in this country, things are better in Europe, too many programmers are allergic to formalism, and lack the necessary training. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2000-04-01 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > In article <wcczorgbgwi.fsf@world.std.com>, > Robert A Duff <bobduff@world.std.com> wrote: > > Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > > > > > On the other hand, you can prove certain properties of a > program > > > without a spec, e.g. that it terminates for all inputs, or > that > > > it cannot raise an exception etc. > > > > To me, that seems like a more useful approach in most > > circumstances. > > I would have said more practical. Agreed. And we should never forget that there are some things that can't be proven because they can't be formalized, but are still important requirements. Eg informative error messages from a compiler. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert A Duff @ 2000-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-02 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <wcc7lehg5yd.fsf@world.std.com>, Robert A Duff <bobduff@world.std.com> wrote: > And we should never forget that there are some things that > can't be proven because they can't be formalized, but are > still important requirements. Eg informative error messages > from a compiler. My favorite example (as Bob knows :-) although I usually like to say "good" error messages, since that is really the specification (being informative is one, but not the only, ingrediant in a good error message, for example clarity and brevity are important too, a compiler which printed the entire RM for every message would be VERY informative :-) Another example is to generate a GUI with good ergonomics. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-30 0:00 ` Robert A Duff @ 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Florian Weimer @ 2000-04-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > >Why should it have changed, BTW? > > Becauswe proof of correctness techniques have improved! Well, I thought that "unprovable" and "difficult to prove" mean different things. But you are the native speaker, and I won't argue with you. ;) > > and neither is the algorithm description, they are more > > substantial than the "formal" proofs which I've seen at the > > local CS department. > > I have no idea what substantial means in this respect, The "formal" proofs I was shown had severe gaps, which could have been filled, but doing so would have made them incomprehensible (at least for me, the only thing which I could do with such proofs is checking step by step whether they are valid, but I'm sure I couldn't learn anything about proof techniques or the structure of the underlying problem from them). > > (i.e. proofs whose formalization is easy, but tedious work, > > and which would result in proofs nobody could understand). > > It is not really important if a human can understand a proof, > if all proof obligations have been satisfied algorithmicly > using a verifier. That's the point. I didn't know that such tools are available. If you use them, formal proofs suddenly make much more sense. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Florian Weimer @ 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-04-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <87wvlshudn.fsf@deneb.cygnus.argh.org>, Florian Weimer <fw-usenet@deneb.cygnus.argh.org> wrote: > That's the point. I didn't know that such tools are > available. If you use them, formal proofs suddenly make much > more sense. I would say that formal proofs *ONLY* make sense in the context of a proof verifier, and this is hardly new, proof of correctness aided by proof verifiers goes back 30-40 years as a concept and these tools have steadily improved over time. A company that deals with such technologies in the Ada context is Praxis, and a visit to their website is informative. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Florian Weimer @ 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-29 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38E1F6D5.8303903C@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk>, Martin Dowie <martin@dowie-cs.demon.co.uk> wrote: > speaking of proving things... > > one of the reasons I had always been told for avoiding using gotos, was > that it makes a program unprovable. a) was this true; and if so, b) is > this still true? Well it's an overstatement, obviously limited forms of gotos are totally equivalent to simple control structures and thus neither harder or easier to prove correct. It is true that the denotational semantics of a general goto is very tricky. If any of you can dig out ancient materials, have a look at the source code of Ada/Ed. This was basically an executable denotational semantics. At this level, an if statement was coded something like: if evaluate (expression) = true then replace if with then part else replace if with else part end; the coding for goto was really complex and horrible (and interestingly REALLY inefficient :-) So yes, general gotos can definitely make proof of correctness more difficult. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` tmoran 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: tmoran @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) >Of course you could argue that it is easier to find your refined >superior form from my syntactic expression with nested loops >than from the original with a goto, and that would be an >interesting argument to make. For example: > following sorting algorithm: > > <<Do_It_Again>> > for J in 1 .. N - 1 loop > if D (J) < D (J + 1) then > Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); > goto Do_It_Again; > end if; > end loop; re-written with While instead of goto is J := D'first; while J < D'last loop if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far J := J+1; -- continue else Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item J := D'first; -- and start over end if; end loop; which practically makes you trip over an obvious improvement in the algorithm to J := D'first; while J < D'last loop if D (J) >= D (J + 1) then -- sorted so far J := J+1; -- continue else Swap (D (J), D (J + 1)); -- out of order, move item if J > D'first then -- and start checking at J := J-1; -- the first changed spot end if; end if; end loop; ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale ` (2 more replies) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle ` (3 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: David Starner @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:40:45 -0800, Bill Dale <william.dale.jr@lmco.com> wrote: >dis90072 wrote: >> >> Having learned ada for the past six months, I have found no reference to >> the 'jump' command. In MSDOS you can use the 'goto' command. Even in >> damn assembler you can jump. What is the equivalent in ada? I have had >> enough of endless 'IF' statements and everlasting case statements. I >> know it might make the program hard to follow, but I don't care! I must >> have it! >> Please......! >> Regards, >> Matt. > >Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. This seems absurd. I occasionally come upon situations where it's either a goto statment or a boolean variable, and the boolean variable is no more readable. The GNAT sources contain 300-400 goto statements and a brief glance at parts shows that the goto statements are highly readable. (I do realize the evil that a goto statement can be - I spent much of my youth typing in Basic programs from books. This does not prove that a judicious use of goto statements in a language with appropriate control structures like C or Ada is wrong.) -- David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org Only a nerd would worry about wrong parentheses with square brackets. But that's what mathematicians are. -- Dr. Burchard, math professor at OSU ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner @ 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Bill Dale @ 2000-03-21 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) David Starner wrote: > > On Tue, 21 Mar 2000 09:40:45 -0800, Bill Dale <william.dale.jr@lmco.com> wrote: > >dis90072 wrote: > >> > >> Having learned ada for the past six months, I have found no reference to > >> the 'jump' command. In MSDOS you can use the 'goto' command. Even in > >> damn assembler you can jump. What is the equivalent in ada? I have had > >> enough of endless 'IF' statements and everlasting case statements. I > >> know it might make the program hard to follow, but I don't care! I must > >> have it! > >> Please......! > >> Regards, > >> Matt. > > > >Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > This seems absurd. I occasionally come upon situations > where it's either a goto statment or a boolean variable, > and the boolean variable is no more readable. > The GNAT sources contain 300-400 goto statements and > a brief glance at parts shows that the goto statements > are highly readable. > > (I do realize the evil that a goto statement can be - > I spent much of my youth typing in Basic programs from > books. This does not prove that a judicious use of goto > statements in a language with appropriate control structures > like C or Ada is wrong.) > > -- > David Starner - dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org > Only a nerd would worry about wrong parentheses with > square brackets. But that's what mathematicians are. > -- Dr. Burchard, math professor at OSU OK, I'll jump back in on this. I just left an assignment (incomplete BTW) updating a Fortan program. Some of the source was 50% GOTOs - no kidding. Line numbers, too. IF (FRED.EQ.0) GO TO 124 IF (BARNY.EQ.1) GO TO 234 IF (WILMA.EQ.2) GO TO 180 Line after obscure line. Awful crap. Life is too short to deal with this stuff. I can confidently say I have never used a GOTO in Ada. Never had to. -- No-GOTO Bill ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D81DF6.D4AA73FC@lmco.com>, william.dale.jr@lmco.com wrote: > Line after obscure line. Awful crap. Life is too short > to deal with this stuff. Yes, but showing an example of a feature being misused is not an argument for never using the feature, unless you are incapable of distinguishing good from bad use. > > I can confidently say I have never used a GOTO in Ada. Never > had to. No one ever *has* to use a GOTO, there are always other ways to write things, and indeed you can't find an example where the prohibition of gotos severely damages the code. You can certainly find cases where the use of a goto clarifies the code (e.g. the simple use for a 'continue' function in a loop, where "goto Continue;" is clearer than rigging up an extra if to skip the rest of the loop in many situations. What is interesting to me is that I often find that people like no-goto-Bill are actually allergic not to the notion of a goto (which would make some sense) but to the actual keyword GOTO, and are still quite happy to do a RETURN or EXIT from a deeply nested structure (or even (mis)use a RAISE statement to get a goto without using the dreaded keyword. Now if no-goto-Bill says that he would NEVER EVER use such horrible things, at least he is consistent :-) I once was looking at a COBOL program, where I found PERFORM CLOSE-FILES in a deeply nested structure. I was puzzled because I could not see any way the program could continue after return from CLOSE-FILES. Digging into many levels of calls, I finally found a STOP RUN. statement, so in fact the PERFORM could not return. The code would have been far clearer if it had said: GO TO CLOSE-FILES I asked why this was not done -- "Oh, we are not allowed to use GO TO in our programs" was the absurd reply! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett ` (2 more replies) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8b8m2e$8201@news.cis.okstate.edu>, dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org wrote: > The GNAT sources contain 300-400 goto statements and > a brief glance at parts shows that the goto statements > are highly readable. It's actually quite instructive to look through these goto statements. About 60% are in the finite state machine that is part of the SPITBOL pattern matching unit. I have always felt that gotos are a very natural representation of the arcs of a finite state machine, and I invite people to look at the code of g-spipat.adb to see if you agree :-) Another section are for the finite state machine in the scanner. Another big bunch are continue gotos. Ada lacks a continue statement, and thus this facility must be simulated with a goto as in loop if ... then goto Continue; <<Continue>> null; end loop; This is actually quite a structured use of goto There are only about 8 other instances of gotos in the several hundred thousand lines of sources. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <8b9fk3$l18$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > > Another big bunch are continue gotos. Ada lacks a continue > statement, and thus this facility must be simulated with a goto > as in > > loop > > if ... then goto Continue; > > <<Continue>> null; > end loop; > > This is actually quite a structured use of goto I would argue that this use is clearer than the continue statement as provided by C. But then I've been known to suggest compulsory use of labels when using exit in nested loops. Like the original poster to this thread, these and other prejudices come from cruel and unnatural software maintenance. -- Roger Barnett Interbroker is a registered trademark. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Charles Hixson @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Roger Barnett wrote: > -- snip > I would argue that this use is clearer than the continue statement > as provided by C. > > -- snip Personally I find that if the break and contiue constructs are supplemented with named break and continue statements, I never have the need (or desire) for a GoTo. Unfortunately, these constructs are not always available, so it is sometimes necessary to simulate (emulate?) them. Back in the CP/M days I'd occasionally write a driver where I'd need to either use a goto or drop into assembler. Usually I choose to use "sort-of" C, with go-to instructions for ease in understanding. But it was nearly a tossup. OTOH, those were *VERY* small modules. A couple of branches in a 20 line routine is acceptable if there is a good reason. For that matter I'd rather use a state machine implemented with goto's than one that was implemented with function variables. I find them to be "pretty near" the same concept, and even less intelligible (the true touchstone!). -- Charles Hixson -- charleshixson@earthling.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert A Duff @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > loop > > if ... then goto Continue; > > <<Continue>> null; > end loop; This sort of example is more convincing if you make the if statement more deeply nested. - Bob ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert A Duff @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Paul Graham @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > Another big bunch are continue gotos. Ada lacks a continue > statement, and thus this facility must be simulated with a goto > as in ... Why is there no 'continue' statement in Ada? You've shown that the function of 'continue' is desirable. Paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D8DFC2.778826FB@cadence.com>, Paul Graham <pgraham@cadence.com> wrote: > Why is there no 'continue' statement in Ada? You've shown > that the function of 'continue' is desirable. Yes, the *function* of continue is desirable, but on the other hand a continue is indeed a goto, so why not say so? That's the other point of view, and as you see from the previous post, some people find it clearer to use a goto here. We did discuss this in the language revision but there was insufficient support for this language addition. I guess the burden here is to explain why the goto formulation is so horrible. Yes, it slightly discourages this control flow form, but that's probably a good idea, if you can avoid exit's and continue's in loops without doing damage to the code that's a good idea. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Paul Graham @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) I think the goto implementation of the 'continue' statement is fragile in the sense that it depends on the "<<continue>> null;" being the last statement in the loop. A maintainer who wasn't familar with this idiom might add statements at the end of the loop body, thereby breaking your construct. On the other hand, the continue statement in C is really best used in a for loop, because you want some guarantee that the loop state will advance. In a while loop it is all too easy for a misplaced continue to create an infinite loop. Paul Robert Dewar wrote: > > In article <38D8DFC2.778826FB@cadence.com>, > Paul Graham <pgraham@cadence.com> wrote: > > > Why is there no 'continue' statement in Ada? You've shown > > that the function of 'continue' is desirable. > > Yes, the *function* of continue is desirable, but on the other > hand a continue is indeed a goto, so why not say so? That's the > other point of view, and as you see from the previous post, > some people find it clearer to use a goto here. We did discuss > this in the language revision but there was insufficient > support for this language addition. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D9233B.D51B16A3@cadence.com>, Paul Graham <pgraham@cadence.com> wrote: > I think the goto implementation of the 'continue' statement is fragile > in the sense that it depends on the "<<continue>> null;" being the last > statement in the loop. A maintainer who wasn't familar with this idiom > might add statements at the end of the loop body, thereby breaking your > construct. But surely you would enforce this usage with a tool. There are no general defences against sufficiently incompetent maintainers. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8bbsl4$ani$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote: > In article <38D9233B.D51B16A3@cadence.com>, > > But surely you would enforce this usage with a tool. There are > no general defences against sufficiently incompetent > maintainers. A tool? How would such a tool be written? It looks to me like you'd need an Ada parser to hook it to. Not everyone has the ability or permission to hack stuff like this into their compiler. Perhaps ASIS could help, but not every compiler supports ASIS. And even if you did have the tool, how are you going to force maintainers to use it? Perhaps its a bit easier for you to make edicts like that at ACT, but I often write code that is owned by the government and will be maintained by whoever they decide to hire to do the job. Really this is no more of a solution that "lint" is a solution to C's weak type checking. -- T.E.D. http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Paul Graham @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > > In article <8bbsl4$ani$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote: > > In article <38D9233B.D51B16A3@cadence.com>, > > > > But surely you would enforce this usage with a tool. There are > > no general defences against sufficiently incompetent > > maintainers. > > A tool? How would such a tool be written? It looks to me like you'd need > an Ada parser to hook it to. Not everyone has the ability or permission > to hack stuff like this into their compiler. Perhaps ASIS could help, > but not every compiler supports ASIS. I was wondering the same thing. I suppose AdaLint could issue a warning for any goto statement within a loop that jumped to a label within the loop, unless the label was immediately followed by a null statement and an end loop. Indeed, many of Ada's features address the "incompetent maintainer" problem. For instance, the problem of maintaining an if statement in C if there is no brace: if (condition) stmt1; stmt2; Here the maintainer thinks he's adding stmt2 to the then-clause of the if statement. The Ada if syntax prevents this from happening. Paul ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38DA2F9C.BAFF8C60@cadence.com>, Paul Graham <pgraham@cadence.com> wrote: > For instance, the problem of maintaining an if statement in C > if there is no brace: > > if (condition) > stmt1; > stmt2; > > Here the maintainer thinks he's adding stmt2 to the then-clause of the > if statement. The Ada if syntax prevents this from happening. Sure, but in a C environment the above code should be ruled out by the coding rules for indentation, which should most certainly be checked by a tool (note that EMACS will do this checking by automatically identing the above code as > if (condition) > stmt1; > stmt2; which will help avoid this. I consider careful choice and enforcement of stylistic coding rules to be an essential element in high quality software engineering. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8bd9ve$r1c$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote: > A tool? How would such a tool be written? It looks to me like > you'd need > an Ada parser to hook it to. Not everyone has the ability or > permission > to hack stuff like this into their compiler. Perhaps ASIS > could help, > but not every compiler supports ASIS. Most compilers do support ASIS, and indeed this is a good way or providing such checking tools. This particular check of course is trivial to program, you do not need ASIS > And even if you did have the tool, how are you going to force > maintainers to use it? Perhaps its a bit easier for you to > make edicts like that at ACT, but I often write code that is > owned by the government and will be maintained by whoever they > decide to hire to do the job. Maintainers who are under no constraints can do anything they like, including replacing all your if statements with gotos. Every significant body of code should be accompanied by a rigorous set of coding standards, and competent maintenance should maintain the same set of standards. Yes, Ted, I know you have often complained of living in an environment with limited ability compilers, lack of control over procedures etc, but you should not assume that every environment is like this :-) > Really this is no more of a solution that "lint" is a solution > to C's weak type checking. You definitely need tools to enforce coding standards. There are third party tools, e.g. the Xinotech Composer (hope I am spelling name right) that can do a good job here. As you know GNAT itself includes some extensive style checks corresponding to a significant part of our internal coding standards. Of course this does not include restrictions on gotos, since we have no codified restrictions (it is merely a feature in the language, that, like all other features, should be used when and only when it is appropriate to do so). Again you may complain that you work in an environment where programmers cannot make this kind of decision correctly, but that is not the universal situation. Actually at ACT, we have a systematic procedure where all changes made by one person are reviewed by another person, for both logic and stylistic issues. I consider such a procedure to be essential in any environment, and it is even more important in a maintenance situation. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8bd9ve$r1c$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> writes: > In article <8bbsl4$ani$1@nnrp1.deja.com>, > Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote: >> In article <38D9233B.D51B16A3@cadence.com>, >> >> But surely you would enforce this usage with a tool. There are >> no general defences against sufficiently incompetent >> maintainers. > > A tool? How would such a tool be written? It looks to me like you'd need > an Ada parser to hook it to. Not everyone has the ability or permission > to hack stuff like this into their compiler. Perhaps ASIS could help, > but not every compiler supports ASIS. > > And even if you did have the tool, how are you going to force > maintainers to use it? If I wanted to enforce use of a checking tool, I would put it into the checkin mechanism. Unless you are running in an environment where you have terribly intertwined the source control and programming functions, any mid-sized shop should not be permitting direct write-access to the source code repository. Programmers can check code in by using the approved mechanism, but a COPY command will not do it. If your code does not pass muster, it does not get checked in. I am not offering an opinion on what the rules should be that will be enforced, just on how to enforce them. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > I guess the burden here is to explain why the goto formulation > is so horrible. Yes, it slightly discourages this control flow > form, but that's probably a good idea, if you can avoid exit's > and continue's in loops without doing damage to the code that's > a good idea. Is it so hard to say that the problem with the goto is not the goto function, but what many people have done with it? People are quite capable of writing good code in assembly language, but it is likely to be quite hard to read and understand unless it is well commented. I spent many years as a Fortran programmer and started out writing quite a bit of "spaghetti code". Then I read some of the articles on structured program and decided they made sense. I also note that you can write good structured code while using goto's and write some very poorly organized code without a single goto. As far as this Ada newsgroup, I will note that this is a far more general programming language discussion and actually has little to do with Ada which, as mentioned, does have a goto function. Mike Walsh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-04-06 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Charles Hixson @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Michael P. Walsh" wrote: > -- snip > > People are quite capable of writing good code in assembly > language, but it is likely to be quite hard to read and > understand unless it is well commented. > > -- snip It is true that nearly any computer language creates the possibility of writing well structured code. The problem come from a little thing that Linguists call Zipf's law. Basically it says that people prefer to do things that are easy, and language tends to structure itself to make easy those things that people do frequently. At this point I tend to apply the weak form of Whorf's law, which states (essentially) if there are two ways to think about something, people will tend to choose to think about it in the way most harmonious with their most familiar linguistic habits. In other words, if you get into the habit of using goto's, you will tend to become more comfortable with using them. And if it is twice as hard to write well structured code, you will tend to write unstructured code. To elaborate on the matter, if code is written first in a quick and dirty fashion, with the intention of cleaning it up once you get it working, it will probably never get cleaned. So the better environment is the one that makes it easy to write it correctly the first time. I don't like goto label constructs unless the label MUST be attached to a well-marked feature, like the beginning or end of a loop or routine, and those feature had better be well marked for manyn other reasons than the goto label. If the label just happens to be at the start or end of the routine, and not attached to it, then it might be advantageous to insert intervening statements for cleanup or initialization. And they may become modified by code repairs. And all of a sudden you notice that the code doesn't look very structured at all. Let's just get off this slope! I support continue <label> and break <label> where the label is on a block, preferably at both the beginning and the end. GoTo <label> is a much too general substitute. The whole purpose of this is to cause the code that is written to be more legible, both later and at the time! -- Charles Hixson -- charleshixson@earthling.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson @ 2000-04-06 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 2000-04-07 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Wes Groleau @ 2000-04-06 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) > ...I support continue <label> > and break <label> where the label is on a block, preferably at both > the beginning and the end. GoTo <label> is a much too general > substitute. Label: loop .... continue label; is surely less error-prone than the goto equivalent, but I see no reason to add break Label; when it has no practical difference from exit Label; And allowing case branches to flow into each other when one forgets to "break" would be very foolish. -- Wes Groleau http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-04-06 0:00 ` Wes Groleau @ 2000-04-07 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Charles Hixson @ 2000-04-07 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Wes Groleau wrote: > > ...I support continue <label> > > and break <label> where the label is on a block, preferably at both > > the beginning and the end. GoTo <label> is a much too general > > substitute. > > Label: > loop > .... > continue label; > > is surely less error-prone than the goto equivalent, but > I see no reason to add > > break Label; > > when it has no practical difference from > > exit Label; > > And allowing case branches to flow into each other when > one forgets to "break" would be very foolish. > > -- > Wes Groleau > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~wgroleau ummm.... The reason that I used the break/continue pairing is that they exist as a pair in C. Of course "exit label" has the same meaning (and the meaning of the word exit more nearly approaches the meaning of the use as a programming construct). I'm not particularly fond of the word "continue" rather than "recycle" or "next" either, which both seem to carry a better semantic mapping to the intended use, but in the language that I was drawing from the pairing is break/continue. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Brian Rogoff @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Wed, 22 Mar 2000, Robert Dewar wrote: > In article <38D8DFC2.778826FB@cadence.com>, > Paul Graham <pgraham@cadence.com> wrote: > > > Why is there no 'continue' statement in Ada? You've shown > > that the function of 'continue' is desirable. > > Yes, the *function* of continue is desirable, but on the other > hand a continue is indeed a goto, so why not say so? That's the > other point of view, and as you see from the previous post, > some people find it clearer to use a goto here. We did discuss > this in the language revision but there was insufficient > support for this language addition. I agree with Roger Barnett who wrote that he preferred your "goto" form to C's continue since it made explicit the flow of control. Adding continue to Ada would be a mistake IMO (like adding "use type" was. There, get those flames going ;-) > I guess the burden here is to explain why the goto formulation > is so horrible. Because the great Dijkstra said goto is bad, and therefore it is, at least if it is spelled that way. Dijkstra also wrote that CS students should be kept away from a computer for their first year and focus on pencil and paper proofs (no problem for me, I was a Math major) and he probably didn't like Ada anyways so phooey on him :-) -- Brian ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <Pine.BSF.4.21.0003220851480.3555-100000@shell5.ba.best.com>, Brian Rogoff <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote: > Dijkstra also wrote that CS students should be kept away from a > computer for their first year and focus on pencil and paper proofs (no > problem for me, I was a Math major) and he probably didn't like Ada > anyways so phooey on him :-) I don't ever really expect to agree with Dijkstra. But that's because Basic was my first language, therefore I am "mentally mutilated beyond all hope of saving", or somesuch. For the record, I think my wife would agreee with him on that point. :-) -- T.E.D. http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > In article <Pine.BSF.4.21.0003220851480.3555-100000@shell5.ba.best.com>, > Brian Rogoff <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote: > > Dijkstra also wrote that CS students should be kept away from a > > computer for their first year and focus on pencil and paper proofs (no > > problem for me, I was a Math major) and he probably didn't like Ada > > anyways so phooey on him :-) > > I don't ever really expect to agree with Dijkstra. But that's because > Basic was my first language, therefore I am "mentally mutilated beyond > all hope of saving", or somesuch. > > For the record, I think my wife would agreee with him on that point. :-) > > -- > T.E.D. > http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html > In addition to being a noted computer expert Dijkstra is noted for his ascerbic remarks and ability to make thought provoking comments. Anyone taking some of Dijkstra's words completely literally is quite likely rising to his bait. In some ways you could call Dijkstra a "trolling" academic. Note that I am in no way disparaging Dijkstra's truly great capabilities as a computer scientist. Mike Walsh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <Pine.BSF.4.21.0003220851480.3555-100000@shell5.ba.best.com>, Brian Rogoff <bpr@shell5.ba.best.com> wrote: Adding > continue to Ada would be a mistake IMO (like adding "use type" was. Ah ha, very nice Brian, a nested troll :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <8b8m2e$8201@news.cis.okstate.edu>, dstarner98@aasaa.ofe.org wrote: > > > >Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > This seems absurd. Yes, of course it *is* absurd, but some people just don't understand when goto's are OK, and when they are not, and just can't grasp this distinction. For such people the above prohibition is less damaging to their code than the improper use of gotos. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic ` (2 subsequent siblings) 5 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Richard D Riehle @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D7B41D.B3494C6A@lmco.com>, Bill Dale <william.dale.jr@lmco.com> wrote: >Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > >OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. When Dijkstra wrote his letter to the Communications of the ACM in 1968, "Goto Considered Harmful," lots of people read the title but not the letter. COBOL and Fortran code was mangled by programmers under the management of people who made up rules based on the title of the article. Early languages were not well-designed to intelligently avoid occasional use of a "jump" or "goto." The early adoption of this admonition may have caused as much damage as good in those early programs. Later languages, starting with Pascal (some might argue for PL/I or some other language), introduced well-formed structures with improved scoping rules. This eliminated many situations that might have required a "goto." It did not eliminate all of them. I recall a program where we were able to more effectively meet a deadline by modifying one little piece of code with a "goto". It was the correct decision at the time. There was no equvilaent of a pragma Inline for the language in use and we could not tolerate the overhead of heavy access to a subprogram call. We would solve the problem differently today. In my humble opinion, we should not design with the goto. However, it is sometimes an important mechanism when all other options have been exhausted. I have seen some excellent programs that have used the goto, including some very recent Ada code. In one example, the programmer used it to emulate the "continue" statement one finds in some other programming languages. I recall a posting a long time ago where Dr. Dewar presented an example of an FSM that lent itself to design with a goto. I remember someone once saying that "people who make up rules about programming tend to be people who no longer write real programs." That may be an extreme point-of-view, but it is a point-of-view from the trenches and programming managers need to know what the people who are laying down source code think of such doctrinaire approaches to software development. Richard Riehle richard@adaworks.com ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Jeff Carter @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Richard D Riehle wrote: > When Dijkstra wrote his letter to the Communications of the ACM > in 1968, "Goto Considered Harmful," lots of people read the > title but not the letter. Quite true. For example, IIRC the letter was about program correctness proofs, and argued that the goto made such proofs much harder, not that the goto made human understanding or modification of software harder. Few of us perform correctness proofs, but we avoid the goto because it usually makes the software harder to understand and modify. I think the message that started this was a troll; I'm sure the author is please at the response generated. -- Jeff Carter "English bed-wetting types." Monty Python & the Holy Grail ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D9B88B.366CC1AE@acm.org>, jrcarter@acm.org wrote: > Richard D Riehle wrote: > > When Dijkstra wrote his letter to the Communications of the ACM > > in 1968, "Goto Considered Harmful," lots of people read the > > title but not the letter. > > Quite true. For example, IIRC the letter was about program correctness > proofs, and argued that the goto made such proofs much harder, not that > the goto made human understanding or modification of software harder. That's not really a fair formulation of the letter (please reread it). But what is important is to realize that in the environment that EWD was operating (Europe) he was not saying something new. Everyone who ever wrote in Algol-60 knows that you don't often need goto statements. Really the letter was an interesting commentary on the damage that was being done in the US by using junk languages like Fortran that lacked decent structural alternatives to the excessive use of gotos. It is interesting to note that in 1971 (I think that was the year), there was a survey of programming language use in unversities in the British Journal of Computing (I think that's the right citation, I no longer have this at hand). It asked what language you are teaching now, and what would you like to teach. Overwhelming response was England, now teaching Algol-60, would like to teach Algol-68 (*) Europe (certainly at that time, England did not consider itself part of Europe, whether it does now is debatable :-) now teaching Algol-60, would like to teach Simula-67 USA, now teaching Fortran, would like to teach Fortran :-) (*) a reflection of the govt policy of forcing universities to buy ICL machines, and the excellent Algol-68 compiler available for the ICL series at that time. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Jeff Carter wrote: > Richard D Riehle wrote: > > When Dijkstra wrote his letter to the Communications of the ACM > > in 1968, "Goto Considered Harmful," lots of people read the > > title but not the letter. > > Quite true. For example, IIRC the letter was about program correctness > proofs, and argued that the goto made such proofs much harder, not that > the goto made human understanding or modification of software harder. > Few of us perform correctness proofs, but we avoid the goto because it > usually makes the software harder to understand and modify. > > I think the message that started this was a troll; I'm sure the author > is please at the response generated. > > -- > Jeff Carter > "English bed-wetting types." > Monty Python & the Holy Grail If you follow some of the more highly publicized comments of Dijkstra over the years you will find he has labeled some excellent advice with some pithy and over-simplified comments. He also has made some comments about anthromorphizing computer software designations that, in my opinion, are just sheer old fogyism. As far as trolls go, Dijkstra is something of an academic troll. Mike Walsh ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Brian Rogoff @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On Thu, 23 Mar 2000, Michael P. Walsh wrote: > Jeff Carter wrote: > > I think the message that started this was a troll; I'm sure the author > > is please at the response generated. > > If you follow some of the more highly publicized comments of > Dijkstra over the years you will find he has labeled some excellent > advice with some pithy and over-simplified comments. > > He also has made some comments about anthromorphizing > computer software designations that, in my opinion, are > just sheer old fogyism. Yes, Ada should have been named after a computer, naming a computer language after a person is a digusting anthropomorphism. Indeed, even calling them computer "languages" is a horrible mistake according to Wirth. > As far as trolls go, Dijkstra is something of an academic > troll. Well sure, but his trolls are usually pretty funny, and that's quite an achievement considering that he's Dutch. Hmmm, I wonder if the original troller was Edsger Dijkstra himself? Probably not, he would have been more inventive, and attacked the omission on out mode functions, or the inclusion of ATC (tip of the hat to RBKD) or some other Ada "misfeature", and not tried to cover old ground. -- Brian PS: Insert ":-)" after all but one of the preceding sentences ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar ` (3 more replies) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663> 5 siblings, 4 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Bill Dale wrote: > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > > OK, I'll put you down as not interested in working for me. > While I will concede that there are times when a goto might make sense, I'll say this much: I have been writing software in Ada since the original standard was published and it must total up to millions of lines of code by now. Not only have I never once used the goto (except possibly in experimental code designed to illustrate its use) but I have never once encountered it in a fielded, working body of code. Anyone who says they "need" a goto in order to code has probably not given the problem enough thought. Or possibly, they have learned a coding style based on assembler or Fortran and have just never been shown how to code the same things without the goto. Don't fight the language! Learn to do it "The Ada Way" MDC -- ============================================================= Marin David Condic - Quadrus Corporation - 1.800.555.3393 1015-116 Atlantic Boulevard, Atlantic Beach, FL 32233 http://www.quadruscorp.com/ m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m ***PLEASE REMOVE THE "-NOSPAM" PART OF MY RETURN ADDRESS*** Visit my web site at: http://www.mcondic.com/ "Because that's where they keep the money." -- Willie Sutton when asked why he robbed banks. ============================================================= ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar ` (2 subsequent siblings) 3 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D8E9DE.14E93706@quadruscorp.com>, "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote: > Bill Dale wrote: > > > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > Don't fight the language! Learn to do it "The Ada Way" It suddenly occurs to me that people might not have read Knuth's paper here (Structured programming with gotos) and of course this is absolutely required reading for participating in this thread :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Chris Morgan 3 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D8E9DE.14E93706@quadruscorp.com>, "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote: > Bill Dale wrote: > > > > Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. > Don't fight the language! Learn to do it "The Ada Way" It suddenly occurs to me that people might not have read Knuth's paper here (Structured programming with gotos) and of course this is absolutely required reading for participating in this thread :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Chris Morgan 3 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D8E9DE.14E93706@quadruscorp.com>, "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote: > Don't fight the language! Learn to do it "The Ada Way" Last I looked, Ada included a goto statement, it is people who absolutely forbid goto's who are failing to follow the above advice. The Ada way is to use a goto if and only if it improves the readability and maintainability of the code. Yes, you can argue that there are zero such cases, but obviously many programmers and the designers of the Ada language disagree with you :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 2 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Jon S Anthony @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > > In article <38D8E9DE.14E93706@quadruscorp.com>, > "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote: > > > Don't fight the language! Learn to do it "The Ada Way" > > Last I looked, Ada included a goto statement, it is people > who absolutely forbid goto's who are failing to follow the > above advice. I seem to recall that (at least in the "early days") the designers put the goto statement in Ada due to a belief that there would be a significant amount of machine generated Ada (presumably from much higher level problem descriptions). Anyone with a clue knows that in this case goto is mighty handy. /Jon -- Jon Anthony Synquiry Technologies, Ltd. Belmont, MA 02478, 617.484.3383 "Nightmares - Ha! The way my life's been going lately, Who'd notice?" -- Londo Mollari ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) So I guess this is not the group to discuss the goto label_variable construct ? [ essentially a poor man's exception handler from the 1970s ] -- Roger Barnett [ purveyor of RTL/2 software products & consultancy ] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <577547997wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>, Roger@natron.demon.co.uk wrote: > > So I guess this is not the group to discuss the goto label_variable > construct ? Probably not :-) Note that most safety critical protocols ban this kind of construct for very good reasons. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article: <8bdc3i$tc1$1@nnrp1.deja.com> Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes: > > In article <577547997wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>, > Roger@natron.demon.co.uk wrote: > > > > So I guess this is not the group to discuss the goto > > label_variable construct ? > > > Probably not :-) > Note that most safety critical protocols ban this kind of > construct for very good reasons. That must depend on the associated semantics and rules, and how they are enforced. -- Roger Barnett ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <255373925wnr@natron.demon.co.uk>, Roger@natron.demon.co.uk wrote: > That must depend on the associated semantics and rules, and > how they are enforced. That's right. But I was assuming from the questin a facility where the expected and actual implementation is a label address and an indirect jump. So I was really referring to the *implementation level* here. A parellel situation would be to say "Ah you can't use C pointers here, because we don't allow the use of addresses in registers at any time." "But C does not require this implementation model" And yes, that's true, but in practice this is the only model likely to be implemented :-) (after all in Ada, even access types, which are much more abstract, are often implemented this way :-) Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 1 sibling, 1 reply; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <38D947B9.6C50@synquiry.com>, Jon S Anthony <jsa@synquiry.com> wrote: > I seem to recall that (at least in the "early days") the designers > put the goto statement in Ada due to a belief that there would be > a significant amount of machine generated Ada (presumably from > much higher level problem descriptions). Anyone with a clue knows > that in this case goto is mighty handy. That's certainly a consideration, but if you recall that this was the *only* reason then you recall wrong :-) Jean Ichbiah is not goto-allergic, and agrees that there are some legitimate uses. Once he was looking at some of my code and asked what the gotos were there for. I said the magic words "finite state machine", and he immediately agreed the usage was not just acceptable but desirable. Encoding the state into the PC is an efficient and easy to read and follow representation of FSM's. Actually relatively few people are completely goto allergic. Wirth for example feels quite free to use an occasional goto (see his coding of heap sort in the algorithms book). Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 0 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Jon S Anthony @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Robert Dewar wrote: > > In article <38D947B9.6C50@synquiry.com>, > Jon S Anthony <jsa@synquiry.com> wrote: > > I seem to recall that (at least in the "early days") the > designers > > put the goto statement in Ada due to a belief that there would > be > > a significant amount of machine generated Ada (presumably from > > much higher level problem descriptions). Anyone with a clue > knows > > that in this case goto is mighty handy. > > That's certainly a consideration, but if you recall that this > was the *only* reason then you recall wrong :-) I should have been more accurate: I had a vague recollection of _reading_ this somewhere. I have no recollection of any of the actual discussions at the time - if for no other reason than Ada83 had already existed a few years before I even got into this business :-). > usage was not just acceptable but desirable. Encoding the > state into the PC is an efficient and easy to read and follow > representation of FSM's. Seems reasonable. /Jon -- Jon Anthony Synquiry Technologies, Ltd. Belmont, MA 02478, 617.484.3383 "Nightmares - Ha! The way my life's been going lately, Who'd notice?" -- Londo Mollari ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic ` (2 preceding siblings ...) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Chris Morgan 3 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Chris Morgan @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> writes: > While I will concede that there are times when a goto might make sense, > I'll say this much: I have been writing software in Ada since the > original standard was published and it must total up to millions of > lines of code by now. Not only have I never once used the goto (except > possibly in experimental code designed to illustrate its use) but I have > never once encountered it in a fielded, working body of code. Do not ever enter HMS ImNotTellingYou. On that boat, IIRC, there are programs made from hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of lines of Ada with a high density of gotos. They naturally express a state machine for each concurrent application process. The design says "I go into a loop, I read my input buffer and process these messages until some condition terminates the loop". The implementation makes that a function which is called with the next message. Loops that persist over several invocations of a function obviously have to be "faked" one way or another. A goto is as good as and possibly more honest than any other way. -- Chris Morgan <cm at mihalis.net> http://mihalis.net "O gummier hum warder buffer-lore rum Enter dare enter envelopes ply" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale ` (3 preceding siblings ...) 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic @ 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663> 5 siblings, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Pascal Obry @ 2000-03-22 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) [-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --] [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 222 bytes --] Bill Dale a �crit dans le message <38D7B41D.B3494C6A@lmco.com>... >dis90072 wrote: >> >Never use a GOTO - ever. At all. Anywhere. Period. Thansk a lot Bill, we are going to have a very lengthy thread :) Pascal. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663>]
* Re: No Go To's Forever! [not found] ` <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663> @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Let's hope he never retires or gets sick! "William Thomas" <bthomas@aisvt.bfg.com> wrote in message news:01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663... > > > People can say what they may about goto's but I have an Uncle that owns a > software company down in Texas. > > I'v tried all the "convert it to Ada arguments", all of the "people don't > use goto's" arguments, he just laughs and keeps coding. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
* Re: No Go To's Forever! [not found] ` <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663> 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington @ 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 1 sibling, 0 replies; 105+ messages in thread From: Robert Dewar @ 2000-03-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663>, "William Thomas" <bthomas@aisvt.bfg.com> wrote: > > > People can say what they may about goto's but I have an Uncle that owns a > software company down in Texas. He has more software in the military > inventory than most of the large military contractors. His customers love > his stuff, its dead simple to use and solves the needs of the end user, > which he claims is the most important aspect of software. > > In all his software, which takes several CD's to back up (18 years worth) > there is not one single 'if then else statement', nore is there a single > 'loop statement'. But there's more goto's than you can shake a stick at. > > I'v tried all the "convert it to Ada arguments", all of the "people don't > use goto's" arguments, he just laughs and keeps coding. Yes, well there are still people writing assembler, but that's not an argument for writing assembler! Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 105+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-04-21 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 105+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2000-03-21 0:00 No Go To's Forever! Bill Dale 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Andrew Berg 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! (I'm sorry I spoke...) dis90072 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-03-22 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Ken Garlington 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-27 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-28 0:00 ` Come From Forever! (was: No Go To's Forever!) Ted Dennison 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-25 0:00 ` No Go To's Forever! Richard D Riehle 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Gautier 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Tim Gahnström 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Keith Thompson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Tim Gahnstr�m 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-16 0:00 ` Kenneth Almquist 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-17 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Dale Stanbrough 2000-04-18 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-04-18 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Martin Dowie 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-30 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-01 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-04-02 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Florian Weimer 2000-04-21 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-29 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-24 0:00 ` tmoran 2000-03-21 0:00 ` David Starner 2000-03-21 0:00 ` Bill Dale 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert A Duff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Paul Graham 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-04-06 0:00 ` Wes Groleau 2000-04-07 0:00 ` Charles Hixson 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Ted Dennison 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Jeff Carter 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Michael P. Walsh 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Brian Rogoff 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Marin D. Condic 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Roger Barnett 2000-03-24 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Jon S Anthony 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Chris Morgan 2000-03-22 0:00 ` Pascal Obry [not found] ` <01bf9436$9c054880$2c5101be@bthomas4663> 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-03-23 0:00 ` Robert Dewar
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