Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Howard W. LUDWIG]

Ted Dennison wrote:

> In article <cUsa5.11077$7%3.784289@news.flash.net>,
>   "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote:
> > You want a real-time software engineer, but (s)he has to have a degree
> > in electrical engineering?
>
> I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one bothered by this. An EE major
> is no more qualified to do serious software development than a CS major
> is for doing serious circuit design.

Funny, it didn't bother me a bit--perhaps because my Ph.D. is in physics :).

I also beg to differ with your comparison.  Software development is much
more than just writing code--even more than designing and testing code.
The software serves a purpose for some application domain.  It is very
common to have in the real-time environment rather mathematically,
scientifically, or technologically complex domains, which most CS majors
were not trained to handle, but the EE, hard science majors, or
mathematicians were.  Some CS majors do have a strong background in
the heavier technical areas because of interest, previous experience,
or choice of electives, but most don't and will look at you totally
cock-eyed when you try to explain image processing techniques, Kalman
filters, coherent signal processing, ...

I am a bit surprised, though, that an advanced degree is not desired.
The experience at many companies producing high technology products
is that you can much more easily teach software development to somebody
who has a demonstrated ability to think than you can teach CS majors
how to think.  That is certainly an overgeneralization, but has some
element of truth to it, where a lot of CS majors graduate from some
podunk college that thinks it has to provide a CS major because that's
the wave of the future but doesn't know what an appropriate CS program is.

Not everyone working on a hard-real-time embedded program needs to
understand real-time operating systems.  I hire a mix, because some
people do need to know that; others need real-time architecture
experience; still others need domain and algorithm experience.
Perhaps the company in question has enough RTOS people and needs
the domain experts.  (Of course, the company may also be SEI Level 1
and not have any idea what they are doing or what they really need ;-).

> Sure, EE's have traditionally been hired to do software development
> anyway, and many are good at it. But they had to learn just about
> everything on the job. The degree itself no more qualifies one for
> software development than a degree English or Music would.

That was before the era of separate CS majors, when everything involving
computers, whether hardware or software, was taught in EE.  At that time,
such a person would be more qualified than an English or Music major.
However, a lot of English and especially Music majors can run circles
around CS majors from schools with bad CS programs (of which, there are
far too many).

> --
> T.E.D.
>
> http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html
>

Howard W. LUDWIG

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Jerry Petrey]

marc mandel wrote:
> 
> On 12 Jul 2000 02:45:18 GMT, rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B.
> Love ) wrote:
> 
> >Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer
> >may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend.  That
> >CS grads don't want to do avionics programming.  They want to do whatever
> >is cool and in at the moment.  Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java.
> >We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this.
> >This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been
> >observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for
> >Avionics type work.
> 
> Robert (and others),
> 
> Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong...
> 
> I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing
> / defense industry type work.
> 
> I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+
> booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners.  These booths
> were swamped with people, although I had no interest in them.  I
> concentrated on the defense companies (Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin,
> Aerospace, Boeing, etc.)  The initial responses that I got was
> positive, although there has been almost no follow-up interest.
> 
> The representative at one of the above companies recognized my resume
> by name ("Hi, Marc.  We're still looking at you."), although I have
> heard very little since then.  The only news that I have gotten is
> that there is a opening in which the hiring manager is considering new
> grads.  That was six weeks ago.
> 
> I stopped at another booth where I happened to mention that I have a
> SECRET security clearance and was given a very warm response.  I have
> not heard _anything_ from that company, although I have contacted them
> repeatedly.
> 
> My first class in structured programming was Ada.  Unlike most of my
> peers, I liked the language.  Unfortunately, that has been a few years
> and only one of my other courses made any use of that the language and
> that also has been a few years.
> 
> I am currently finishing my master's degree in computer science.  I
> have one more graduate-level computer science class to finish.  I have
> been trying to find employment now, since it is rather difficult to
> support myself while I'm taking only one class without a full-time
> job.  (I recently completed a resident 5 month course that was
> required for my military career.)
> 
> I'm guessing that my biggest problem is that I have no full-time
> software development experience in the area that I want to work.
> Databases are an area in which I am willing to start, although I have
> no interest in doing exclusively database work for the rest of my
> life.  On the other hand, I do have computer work experience (5 years
> technical support) and I did 2 years part-time software development
> while working on my master's degree.  It was database related using
> Visual FoxPro.  I also have been a commissioned officer in the Army
> National Guard (Field Artillery) for the past 10 years.  I think that
> says something about my ability / responsibility / maturity.
> 
> Is there something that I am doing wrong?  Is there something else
> that I should be doing?  I would really appreciate some candid
> answers.
> 
> Regards,
> Marc Mandel


One problem with the big defense companies is that no matter how bad
they need people, they rarely can act fast due to the massive 
bureaucracy.  I have worked for most of them and have seen this problem
time and again.  It took almost 6 months between my initial contact
with Raytheon before I got an interview.  If I had been in a hurry, I
would have been long gone by the time they called me.  And yet we
hired about 2000 engineers last year for this location.

We are looking for another 500 now.  If anyone is interested, you can
email me your resume and I'll try to cut some of the red tape.


Jerry

-- 
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-- Jerry Petrey                                                
-- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Member Team Ada & Team Forth
-- Raytheon Missile Systems - Tucson, AZ
-- NOTE: please remove NOSPAM in email address to reply                  
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Robert B. Love]

In <396B8532.49380005@lmco.com> "Howard W. LUDWIG" wrote:
> Ted Dennison wrote:
> 
> > In article <cUsa5.11077$7%3.784289@news.flash.net>,
> >   "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote:
> > > You want a real-time software engineer, but (s)he has to have a 
degree
> > > in electrical engineering?
> >
> > I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one bothered by this. An EE 
major
> > is no more qualified to do serious software development than a CS 
major
> > is for doing serious circuit design.
> 
> Funny, it didn't bother me a bit--perhaps because my Ph.D. is in 
physics :).
> 
> I also beg to differ with your comparison.  Software development is 
much
> more than just writing code--even more than designing and testing code.

Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer
may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend.  That
CS grads don't want to do avionics programming.  They want to do whatever
is cool and in at the moment.  Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java.  
We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this. 
This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been
observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for
Avionics type work.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
 Bob Love                                   
 rlove@neosoft.com                            
----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[marc mandel]

On 12 Jul 2000 02:45:18 GMT, rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B.
Love ) wrote:

>Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer
>may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend.  That
>CS grads don't want to do avionics programming.  They want to do whatever
>is cool and in at the moment.  Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java.  
>We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this. 
>This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been
>observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for
>Avionics type work.

Robert (and others),

Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong...

I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing
/ defense industry type work.

I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+
booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners.  These booths
were swamped with people, although I had no interest in them.  I
concentrated on the defense companies (Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin,
Aerospace, Boeing, etc.)  The initial responses that I got was
positive, although there has been almost no follow-up interest.

The representative at one of the above companies recognized my resume
by name ("Hi, Marc.  We're still looking at you."), although I have
heard very little since then.  The only news that I have gotten is
that there is a opening in which the hiring manager is considering new
grads.  That was six weeks ago.

I stopped at another booth where I happened to mention that I have a
SECRET security clearance and was given a very warm response.  I have
not heard _anything_ from that company, although I have contacted them
repeatedly.

My first class in structured programming was Ada.  Unlike most of my
peers, I liked the language.  Unfortunately, that has been a few years
and only one of my other courses made any use of that the language and
that also has been a few years.

I am currently finishing my master's degree in computer science.  I
have one more graduate-level computer science class to finish.  I have
been trying to find employment now, since it is rather difficult to
support myself while I'm taking only one class without a full-time
job.  (I recently completed a resident 5 month course that was
required for my military career.)

I'm guessing that my biggest problem is that I have no full-time
software development experience in the area that I want to work.
Databases are an area in which I am willing to start, although I have
no interest in doing exclusively database work for the rest of my
life.  On the other hand, I do have computer work experience (5 years
technical support) and I did 2 years part-time software development
while working on my master's degree.  It was database related using
Visual FoxPro.  I also have been a commissioned officer in the Army
National Guard (Field Artillery) for the past 10 years.  I think that
says something about my ability / responsibility / maturity.

Is there something that I am doing wrong?  Is there something else
that I should be doing?  I would really appreciate some candid
answers.

Regards,
Marc Mandel

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Robert B. Love]

In <396c8e63.8005125@news.gwtc.net> marc mandel wrote:
> 
> Robert (and others),
> 
> Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong...
> 
> I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing
> / defense industry type work.

Much like the other responder I can tell you that getting past the
HR types in large aerospace companies is a bear.  Talking directly
with the technical managers is the best way to gain entree but
then HR wants to shield those people and do their job.

I could tell my personal horror stories but instead, let me suggest
that you use whatever personal contacts you have at the companies,
try and talk to project managers instead of HR and write follow up
letters.  Also, don't appear too desparate.  And if a less than 
perfect job comes up, take it.  Getting that first 1-2 years experience
is the key.  Then you can move onto jobs that you consider ideal.

Right now I hear Boeing in Seattle, LockMart in Denver, Raytheon in
Tucson and, of course, Rockwell Collins in Cedar Rapids are hiring.
Also, most of these firms now have web sites you can type in skills
or locations and find a list of openings.  I don't tailor my resume
but I do adapt my cover letter to stress what the potential employer
needs.
 
> I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+
> booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners.  These booths

I once worked a job fair for Mother Martin there.  Every recruiting 
trip I was sent on, I was paired with a HR guy.  Try to to talk to
the technical guy, not the HR guy.

Good luck.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------
 Bob Love                                   
 rlove@neosoft.com                            
----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Ken Garlington]

"Robert B. Love " <rlove@antispam.neosoft.com> wrote in message
news:DCF000A95B5BAD31.3A505649CD3F6110.D2ABBC4E67B28381@lp.airnews.net...

> Right now I hear Boeing in Seattle, LockMart in Denver, Raytheon in
> Tucson and, of course, Rockwell Collins in Cedar Rapids are hiring.
> Also, most of these firms now have web sites you can type in skills
> or locations and find a list of openings.  I don't tailor my resume
> but I do adapt my cover letter to stress what the potential employer
> needs.

Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Company is pretty much desparate for software
engineers at our Fort Worth, TX and Marietta, GA locations. I thought they
were at our Palmdale (Skunk Works) location as well. To check for openings
across the corporation, see

http://lmpeople.external.lmco.com/careers/Careers.asp

If you find that you're having difficulties getting hooked up at our Fort
Worth site, let me know.

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <Rxvb5.16143$7%3.990365@news.flash.net>, "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> writes:

> Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Company is pretty much desparate for software
> engineers at our Fort Worth, TX and Marietta, GA locations. I thought they
> were at our Palmdale (Skunk Works) location as well.

If you have any contact with the lmco.com folks who posted here recently,
you might let them know they should not leave out location, location,
location.  I don't understand why _anyone_ would post an opening with
no location given.  Perhaps they feel their locations are not "attractive".
If I were looking for a job, however, finding a location near where I am
would be the #1 criterion.

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Simon Brady]

I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an
interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the
last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada
programmers? If the answer is what I suspect it is, then maybe that
explains why it's so hard to find experienced ones...
 
Simon Brady                                            sjbrady
Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept.               at
University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand            acm dot org

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Ken Garlington]

I've certainly heard of them... see, for example:

http://www.lmco.com ("Careers" section)
http://www.visitastronics.com/index1.html

Every program I know about has the same complaint... they can't hire
programmers (including Ada programmers) fast enough...


"Simon Brady" <see@below.for.email.address> wrote in message
news:396F8ACC.2B93DBEE@below.for.email.address...
> I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an
> interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the
> last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada
> programmers? If the answer is what I suspect it is, then maybe that
> explains why it's so hard to find experienced ones...
>
> Simon Brady                                            sjbrady
> Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept.               at
> University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand            acm dot org

Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp...

[Simon Brady]

Ken Garlington wrote:
> 
> I've certainly heard of them... see, for example:
> 
> http://www.lmco.com ("Careers" section)
> http://www.visitastronics.com/index1.html
> 
> Every program I know about has the same complaint... they can't hire
> programmers (including Ada programmers) fast enough...
> 
> "Simon Brady" <see@below.for.email.address> wrote in message
> news:396F8ACC.2B93DBEE@below.for.email.address...
> > I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an
> > interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the
> > last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada
> > programmers? [...]

Well Ken, I hereby publically eat my words - the LM careers page appears
to be down, but BAe A/c Controls do indeed list an opening for
entry-level software engineers, with Ada being one of the preferred
languages to have been exposed to. It's rather lonely among the "3-5
years experience" positions, but it is there.

Of course they're hardly going to jump through the H1B hoops for an
entry-level position, but let's not even get started on that topic :-)

Simon Brady                                            sjbrady
Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept.               at
University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand            acm dot org