* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... [not found] ` <8kfdk9$met$1@nnrp1.deja.com> @ 2000-07-11 0:00 ` Howard W. LUDWIG 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Howard W. LUDWIG @ 2000-07-11 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ted Dennison wrote: > In article <cUsa5.11077$7%3.784289@news.flash.net>, > "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote: > > You want a real-time software engineer, but (s)he has to have a degree > > in electrical engineering? > > I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one bothered by this. An EE major > is no more qualified to do serious software development than a CS major > is for doing serious circuit design. Funny, it didn't bother me a bit--perhaps because my Ph.D. is in physics :). I also beg to differ with your comparison. Software development is much more than just writing code--even more than designing and testing code. The software serves a purpose for some application domain. It is very common to have in the real-time environment rather mathematically, scientifically, or technologically complex domains, which most CS majors were not trained to handle, but the EE, hard science majors, or mathematicians were. Some CS majors do have a strong background in the heavier technical areas because of interest, previous experience, or choice of electives, but most don't and will look at you totally cock-eyed when you try to explain image processing techniques, Kalman filters, coherent signal processing, ... I am a bit surprised, though, that an advanced degree is not desired. The experience at many companies producing high technology products is that you can much more easily teach software development to somebody who has a demonstrated ability to think than you can teach CS majors how to think. That is certainly an overgeneralization, but has some element of truth to it, where a lot of CS majors graduate from some podunk college that thinks it has to provide a CS major because that's the wave of the future but doesn't know what an appropriate CS program is. Not everyone working on a hard-real-time embedded program needs to understand real-time operating systems. I hire a mix, because some people do need to know that; others need real-time architecture experience; still others need domain and algorithm experience. Perhaps the company in question has enough RTOS people and needs the domain experts. (Of course, the company may also be SEI Level 1 and not have any idea what they are doing or what they really need ;-). > Sure, EE's have traditionally been hired to do software development > anyway, and many are good at it. But they had to learn just about > everything on the job. The degree itself no more qualifies one for > software development than a degree English or Music would. That was before the era of separate CS majors, when everything involving computers, whether hardware or software, was taught in EE. At that time, such a person would be more qualified than an English or Music major. However, a lot of English and especially Music majors can run circles around CS majors from schools with bad CS programs (of which, there are far too many). > -- > T.E.D. > > http://www.telepath.com/~dennison/Ted/TED.html > Howard W. LUDWIG ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-11 0:00 ` ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp Howard W. LUDWIG @ 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 2000-07-12 0:00 ` marc mandel 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Robert B. Love @ 2000-07-12 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In <396B8532.49380005@lmco.com> "Howard W. LUDWIG" wrote: > Ted Dennison wrote: > > > In article <cUsa5.11077$7%3.784289@news.flash.net>, > > "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> wrote: > > > You want a real-time software engineer, but (s)he has to have a degree > > > in electrical engineering? > > > > I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one bothered by this. An EE major > > is no more qualified to do serious software development than a CS major > > is for doing serious circuit design. > > Funny, it didn't bother me a bit--perhaps because my Ph.D. is in physics :). > > I also beg to differ with your comparison. Software development is much > more than just writing code--even more than designing and testing code. Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend. That CS grads don't want to do avionics programming. They want to do whatever is cool and in at the moment. Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java. We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this. This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for Avionics type work. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Love rlove@neosoft.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Robert B. Love @ 2000-07-12 0:00 ` marc mandel 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Jerry Petrey 2000-07-13 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 0 siblings, 2 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: marc mandel @ 2000-07-12 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) On 12 Jul 2000 02:45:18 GMT, rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. Love ) wrote: >Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer >may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend. That >CS grads don't want to do avionics programming. They want to do whatever >is cool and in at the moment. Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java. >We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this. >This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been >observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for >Avionics type work. Robert (and others), Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong... I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing / defense industry type work. I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+ booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners. These booths were swamped with people, although I had no interest in them. I concentrated on the defense companies (Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin, Aerospace, Boeing, etc.) The initial responses that I got was positive, although there has been almost no follow-up interest. The representative at one of the above companies recognized my resume by name ("Hi, Marc. We're still looking at you."), although I have heard very little since then. The only news that I have gotten is that there is a opening in which the hiring manager is considering new grads. That was six weeks ago. I stopped at another booth where I happened to mention that I have a SECRET security clearance and was given a very warm response. I have not heard _anything_ from that company, although I have contacted them repeatedly. My first class in structured programming was Ada. Unlike most of my peers, I liked the language. Unfortunately, that has been a few years and only one of my other courses made any use of that the language and that also has been a few years. I am currently finishing my master's degree in computer science. I have one more graduate-level computer science class to finish. I have been trying to find employment now, since it is rather difficult to support myself while I'm taking only one class without a full-time job. (I recently completed a resident 5 month course that was required for my military career.) I'm guessing that my biggest problem is that I have no full-time software development experience in the area that I want to work. Databases are an area in which I am willing to start, although I have no interest in doing exclusively database work for the rest of my life. On the other hand, I do have computer work experience (5 years technical support) and I did 2 years part-time software development while working on my master's degree. It was database related using Visual FoxPro. I also have been a commissioned officer in the Army National Guard (Field Artillery) for the past 10 years. I think that says something about my ability / responsibility / maturity. Is there something that I am doing wrong? Is there something else that I should be doing? I would really appreciate some candid answers. Regards, Marc Mandel ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-12 0:00 ` marc mandel @ 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Jerry Petrey 2000-07-13 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 1 sibling, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Jerry Petrey @ 2000-07-12 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) marc mandel wrote: > > On 12 Jul 2000 02:45:18 GMT, rlove@antispam.neosoft.com (Robert B. > Love ) wrote: > > >Well, besides the issue of domain knowledge that a software engineer > >may lack, my current employer finds another disturbing trend. That > >CS grads don't want to do avionics programming. They want to do whatever > >is cool and in at the moment. Web/E-commerce or game programming. Java. > >We've traditionally found that EE's who program are better at this. > >This certainly is NOT an iron clad rule, just something that's been > >observed enough that some managers are weary of hiring CS grads for > >Avionics type work. > > Robert (and others), > > Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong... > > I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing > / defense industry type work. > > I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+ > booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners. These booths > were swamped with people, although I had no interest in them. I > concentrated on the defense companies (Raytheon, Lockheed-Martin, > Aerospace, Boeing, etc.) The initial responses that I got was > positive, although there has been almost no follow-up interest. > > The representative at one of the above companies recognized my resume > by name ("Hi, Marc. We're still looking at you."), although I have > heard very little since then. The only news that I have gotten is > that there is a opening in which the hiring manager is considering new > grads. That was six weeks ago. > > I stopped at another booth where I happened to mention that I have a > SECRET security clearance and was given a very warm response. I have > not heard _anything_ from that company, although I have contacted them > repeatedly. > > My first class in structured programming was Ada. Unlike most of my > peers, I liked the language. Unfortunately, that has been a few years > and only one of my other courses made any use of that the language and > that also has been a few years. > > I am currently finishing my master's degree in computer science. I > have one more graduate-level computer science class to finish. I have > been trying to find employment now, since it is rather difficult to > support myself while I'm taking only one class without a full-time > job. (I recently completed a resident 5 month course that was > required for my military career.) > > I'm guessing that my biggest problem is that I have no full-time > software development experience in the area that I want to work. > Databases are an area in which I am willing to start, although I have > no interest in doing exclusively database work for the rest of my > life. On the other hand, I do have computer work experience (5 years > technical support) and I did 2 years part-time software development > while working on my master's degree. It was database related using > Visual FoxPro. I also have been a commissioned officer in the Army > National Guard (Field Artillery) for the past 10 years. I think that > says something about my ability / responsibility / maturity. > > Is there something that I am doing wrong? Is there something else > that I should be doing? I would really appreciate some candid > answers. > > Regards, > Marc Mandel One problem with the big defense companies is that no matter how bad they need people, they rarely can act fast due to the massive bureaucracy. I have worked for most of them and have seen this problem time and again. It took almost 6 months between my initial contact with Raytheon before I got an interview. If I had been in a hurry, I would have been long gone by the time they called me. And yet we hired about 2000 engineers last year for this location. We are looking for another 500 now. If anyone is interested, you can email me your resume and I'll try to cut some of the red tape. Jerry -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- Jerry Petrey -- Senior Principal Systems Engineer - Member Team Ada & Team Forth -- Raytheon Missile Systems - Tucson, AZ -- NOTE: please remove NOSPAM in email address to reply ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-12 0:00 ` marc mandel 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Jerry Petrey @ 2000-07-13 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 1 sibling, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Robert B. Love @ 2000-07-13 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In <396c8e63.8005125@news.gwtc.net> marc mandel wrote: > > Robert (and others), > > Then perhaps you can tell me what I am doing wrong... > > I _am_ very interested in avionics / real-time / distributed computing > / defense industry type work. Much like the other responder I can tell you that getting past the HR types in large aerospace companies is a bear. Talking directly with the technical managers is the best way to gain entree but then HR wants to shield those people and do their job. I could tell my personal horror stories but instead, let me suggest that you use whatever personal contacts you have at the companies, try and talk to project managers instead of HR and write follow up letters. Also, don't appear too desparate. And if a less than perfect job comes up, take it. Getting that first 1-2 years experience is the key. Then you can move onto jobs that you consider ideal. Right now I hear Boeing in Seattle, LockMart in Denver, Raytheon in Tucson and, of course, Rockwell Collins in Cedar Rapids are hiring. Also, most of these firms now have web sites you can type in skills or locations and find a list of openings. I don't tailor my resume but I do adapt my cover letter to stress what the potential employer needs. > I went to a job fair in Santa Clara this last March and saw 200+ > booths that had 'Pre-IPO" and "Web/E-commerce" banners. These booths I once worked a job fair for Mother Martin there. Every recruiting trip I was sent on, I was paired with a HR guy. Try to to talk to the technical guy, not the HR guy. Good luck. -- ---------------------------------------------------------------- Bob Love rlove@neosoft.com ---------------------------------------------------------------- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-13 0:00 ` Robert B. Love @ 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-07-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) "Robert B. Love " <rlove@antispam.neosoft.com> wrote in message news:DCF000A95B5BAD31.3A505649CD3F6110.D2ABBC4E67B28381@lp.airnews.net... > Right now I hear Boeing in Seattle, LockMart in Denver, Raytheon in > Tucson and, of course, Rockwell Collins in Cedar Rapids are hiring. > Also, most of these firms now have web sites you can type in skills > or locations and find a list of openings. I don't tailor my resume > but I do adapt my cover letter to stress what the potential employer > needs. Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Company is pretty much desparate for software engineers at our Fort Worth, TX and Marietta, GA locations. I thought they were at our Palmdale (Skunk Works) location as well. To check for openings across the corporation, see http://lmpeople.external.lmco.com/careers/Careers.asp If you find that you're having difficulties getting hooked up at our Fort Worth site, let me know. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington @ 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Simon Brady 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-07-14 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <Rxvb5.16143$7%3.990365@news.flash.net>, "Ken Garlington" <Ken.Garlington@computer.org> writes: > Lockheed Martin Aeronautical Company is pretty much desparate for software > engineers at our Fort Worth, TX and Marietta, GA locations. I thought they > were at our Palmdale (Skunk Works) location as well. If you have any contact with the lmco.com folks who posted here recently, you might let them know they should not leave out location, location, location. I don't understand why _anyone_ would post an opening with no location given. Perhaps they feel their locations are not "attractive". If I were looking for a job, however, finding a location near where I am would be the #1 criterion. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen @ 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Simon Brady 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Simon Brady @ 2000-07-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada programmers? If the answer is what I suspect it is, then maybe that explains why it's so hard to find experienced ones... Simon Brady sjbrady Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept. at University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand acm dot org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Simon Brady @ 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-07-17 0:00 ` Simon Brady 0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread From: Ken Garlington @ 2000-07-15 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) I've certainly heard of them... see, for example: http://www.lmco.com ("Careers" section) http://www.visitastronics.com/index1.html Every program I know about has the same complaint... they can't hire programmers (including Ada programmers) fast enough... "Simon Brady" <see@below.for.email.address> wrote in message news:396F8ACC.2B93DBEE@below.for.email.address... > I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an > interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the > last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada > programmers? If the answer is what I suspect it is, then maybe that > explains why it's so hard to find experienced ones... > > Simon Brady sjbrady > Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept. at > University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand acm dot org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* Re: ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp... 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Ken Garlington @ 2000-07-17 0:00 ` Simon Brady 0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread From: Simon Brady @ 2000-07-17 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw) Ken Garlington wrote: > > I've certainly heard of them... see, for example: > > http://www.lmco.com ("Careers" section) > http://www.visitastronics.com/index1.html > > Every program I know about has the same complaint... they can't hire > programmers (including Ada programmers) fast enough... > > "Simon Brady" <see@below.for.email.address> wrote in message > news:396F8ACC.2B93DBEE@below.for.email.address... > > I've only just noticed this thread, but the subject line raises an > > interesting (and, I confess, personally relevant) question: when was the > > last time anyone on this group heard of an opening for *entry-level* Ada > > programmers? [...] Well Ken, I hereby publically eat my words - the LM careers page appears to be down, but BAe A/c Controls do indeed list an opening for entry-level software engineers, with Ada being one of the preferred languages to have been exposed to. It's rather lonely among the "3-5 years experience" positions, but it is there. Of course they're hardly going to jump through the H1B hoops for an entry-level position, but let's not even get started on that topic :-) Simon Brady sjbrady Research Assistant, Computer Science Dept. at University of Otago, Dunedin, New Zealand acm dot org ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2000-07-17 0:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 10+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <Rkra5.64$tA2.21103@wdc-read-01.qwest.net> [not found] ` <cUsa5.11077$7%3.784289@news.flash.net> [not found] ` <8kfdk9$met$1@nnrp1.deja.com> 2000-07-11 0:00 ` ADA experienced software engineer - great employment opp Howard W. LUDWIG 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 2000-07-12 0:00 ` marc mandel 2000-07-12 0:00 ` Jerry Petrey 2000-07-13 0:00 ` Robert B. Love 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-07-14 0:00 ` Larry Kilgallen 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Simon Brady 2000-07-15 0:00 ` Ken Garlington 2000-07-17 0:00 ` Simon Brady
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