Re: Beginner

Re: Beginner

[John Herro]

"Joja" <jjhrsak@krapina.com> writes:
> Please drop some useful URLs, and other
> stuf for an ABSOLUTE BEGINNER.

Surely!  Start with http://www.adahome.com.  There are many good
pointers from there.  You can also download my shareware Ada Tutor
program from http://members.aol.com/AdaTutor, or from
ftp://members.aol.com/AdaTutor.

Don't worry about being an absolute beginner.  We were all beginners
once.  You'll learn that Ada programs are easier to read and easier to
modify than programs written in other languages.  Also, Ada compilers
catch errors at compile time that other languages catch only at run
time, or not at all.  You'll like Ada!

- John Herro
Software Innovations Technology
http://members.aol.com/AdaTutor
ftp://members.aol.com/AdaTutor

Beginner

[David Freshwater]

Hi,
   I'm a rank beginner and I am attempting to learn Ada. I was wondering
if there are any good tutorials on the net or if there are any really
good books that I can use or better yet understand ;-).

David
--
http://www.angelfire.com/in/kelewan/Linux.index.html

Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <385C6459.B80BD641@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>,
  David Freshwater <dafresh@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> wrote:
>
> Hi,
>    I'm a rank beginner and I am attempting to learn Ada. I was
wondering
> if there are any good tutorials on the net or if there are any
really
> good books that I can use or better yet understand ;-).


Visit www.adapower.com

This points to tutorials, books, and loads of other resources.


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Re: Beginner

[Preben Randhol]

David Freshwater <dafresh@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:

| Hi,
|    I'm a rank beginner and I am attempting to learn Ada. I was wondering
| if there are any good tutorials on the net or if there are any really
| good books that I can use or better yet understand ;-).

Look at 
	http://www.adapower.com/

under Learn Ada for on-line tutorials.

For books I recommend J. Barnes "Programming in Ada 95" 2.ed. But you
should visit your local library and check if they have Ada 95 books so
that you can find out what you like yourself.

-- 
Preben Randhol -- [randhol@pvv.org] -- [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/]     
         "Det eneste trygge stedet i verden er inne i en fortelling." 
                                                      -- Athol Fugard

Re: Beginner

[Marin D. Condic]

David Freshwater wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>    I'm a rank beginner and I am attempting to learn Ada. I was wondering
> if there are any good tutorials on the net or if there are any really
> good books that I can use or better yet understand ;-).
> 
Others have mentioned Adapower. You might also want to try:
http://www.adahome.com/ where a number of tutorials are referenced. My
web page (see trailer) has a number of useful links and some useful Ada
code on it as well. Specifically, you might want to look at a collection
of "beginner" programs I have put under the heading "GNAT_Examples.chop"
on my Ada programming page. (These are small programs that illustrate
how to use some basic features of Ada which I have used in a course I
teach to engineers who have some programming experience but no Ada
experience.) Feel free to send me an e-mail if there is anything there I
can help you understand and use.

MDC
-- 
=============================================================
Marin David Condic   - Quadrus Corporation -   1.800.555.3393
1015-116 Atlantic Boulevard, Atlantic Beach, FL 32233
http://www.quadruscorp.com/
m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m

Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/

"Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin." 
        --  Allan Meltzer, Economist 
=============================================================

Re: Beginner

[Clifford J. Nelson]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> David Freshwater <dafresh@cyllene.uwa.edu.au> writes:
>
> | Hi,
> |    I'm a rank beginner and I am attempting to learn Ada. I was wondering
> | if there are any good tutorials on the net or if there are any really
> | good books that I can use or better yet understand ;-).
>
> Look at
>         http://www.adapower.com/
>
> under Learn Ada for on-line tutorials.
>
> For books I recommend J. Barnes "Programming in Ada 95" 2.ed. But you
> should visit your local library and check if they have Ada 95 books so
> that you can find out what you like yourself.
>
> --
> Preben Randhol -- [randhol@pvv.org] -- [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/]
>          "Det eneste trygge stedet i verden er inne i en fortelling."
>                                                       -- Athol Fugard

The J. Barnes book comes with a CD ROM, but it is only for Windows. "Ada 95
problem solving and program design" / Michael B. Feldman, Elliot B. Kaufman -
3rd ed.. has a multi-platform CD ROM. Get both books, especially if you have
a Macintosh.

   Cliff Nelson

Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <385D169B.438749BF@quadruscorp.com>,
  "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote:

> Others have mentioned Adapower. You might also want to try:
> http://www.adahome.com/ where a number of tutorials are
> referenced.

Last time I looked adahome had not been updated for a long time,
and had a lot of outdated and incorrect stuff.

As far as I can see, all the useful material there is on
adapower, which contains much more stuff besides, and is very
well kept up to date by David and those helping him.

I always used to refer people to adahome, but at this stage I
think we do a better service for people by forgetting adahome
and sticking with adapower as the primary reference.


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Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <385D169B.438749BF@quadruscorp.com>,
  "Marin D. Condic" <mcondic-nospam@quadruscorp.com> wrote:

> Others have mentioned Adapower. You might also want to try:
> http://www.adahome.com/ where a number of tutorials are
> referenced.

Last time I looked adahome had not been updated for a long time,
and had a lot of outdated and incorrect stuff.

As far as I can see, all the useful material there is on
adapower, which contains much more stuff besides, and is very
well kept up to date by David and those helping him.

I always used to refer people to adahome, but at this stage I
think we do a better service for people by forgetting adahome
and sticking with adapower as the primary reference.


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Re: Beginner

[Ted Dennison]

In article <83k354$28j$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Robert Dewar <dewar@gnat.com> wrote:

> I always used to refer people to adahome, but at this stage I
> think we do a better service for people by forgetting adahome
> and sticking with adapower as the primary reference.

I hate to make a "me too" post (especially with Robert. I wonder if I'm
running a fever or something... :-)  ) but I couldn't agree more with
this. If someone would independently html'ize the LRM, I'd never need to
visit adahome again.

Plus I think it leaves a bad impression with newbies to send them to an
unmaintained site full of dead links and outdated info. Anyone who has
been told that Ada is a "dead" language is liable to have the suspicion
reinforced when they visit adahome.

--
T.E.D.


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Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <83lfe1$v6i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:
> If someone would independently html'ize the LRM, I'd never
> need to visit adahome again.

Seeing as the HTML version of the RM is clearly a derived work
which can only be distributed if the conditions of the original
author are met (see copyright notice in the RM), it seems clear
that this is either not distributable at all, or is freely
distributable. Since it is on the web site, it seems reasonable
to assume that it it freely distributable, and that the terms
of the original copyright notice apply.

It would be nice if Intermetrics would clarify the status
of this document.


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Re: Beginner

[Ted Dennison]

In article <83m0td$cn3$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <83lfe1$v6i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:
> > If someone would independently html'ize the LRM, I'd never
> > need to visit adahome again.
>
> Seeing as the HTML version of the RM is clearly a derived work
> which can only be distributed if the conditions of the original
> author are met (see copyright notice in the RM), it seems clear
> that this is either not distributable at all, or is freely
> distributable. Since it is on the web site, it seems reasonable
> to assume that it it freely distributable, and that the terms
> of the original copyright notice apply.
>
> It would be nice if Intermetrics would clarify the status
> of this document.

Didn't Intermetrics assign the copyright to the U.S. Government?

I don't think this is a GPL-type situation where part is covered by the
GPL and part is not, rendering the whole thing undistributable if the
non-GPL part is incompatable with the GPL. The distribution terms on the
LRM's license don't have any "infectious" clauses like the GPL and LGPL.

I've heard the argument that the copyright on the html-tagging of the
document may be bogus. But as an individual, I don't think I'd want to
risk potentially commiting a violation in hopes that I'd win any court
action that might be instituted against me. The best thing would
probably be to redo it from scratch, as we are doing with the FAQ.

--
T.E.D.


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Re: Beginner

[Marin D. Condic]

Robert Dewar wrote:
> Last time I looked adahome had not been updated for a long time,
> and had a lot of outdated and incorrect stuff.
> 
I know the tutorials are still there, so even if it is inactive, it
still has some value. Your point about outdated material is pretty
important though. Its not a good source for information about any
ongoing developments.

> As far as I can see, all the useful material there is on
> adapower, which contains much more stuff besides, and is very
> well kept up to date by David and those helping him.
> 
Dave Botton certainly has a very nice page there. It looks like there
are plenty of tutorials referenced there, so its a good place for the
beginner to start. I also like the fact that there are code examples
there which can help the beginner to get started on the right foot.

> I always used to refer people to adahome, but at this stage I
> think we do a better service for people by forgetting adahome
> and sticking with adapower as the primary reference.
> 
I'm debating if I should remove the link from my pages. While there is
still some useful material there, it may be best not to send people to a
stale page which may create the impression that there is no active use
of Ada. OTOH, its nice to be as comprehensive as possible...
(Hmmmmm....)

MDC
-- 
=============================================================
Marin David Condic   - Quadrus Corporation -   1.800.555.3393
1015-116 Atlantic Boulevard, Atlantic Beach, FL 32233
http://www.quadruscorp.com/
m c o n d i c @ q u a d r u s c o r p . c o m

Visit my web site at:  http://www.mcondic.com/

"Capitalism without failure is like religion without sin." 
        --  Allan Meltzer, Economist 
=============================================================

Re: Beginner

[Laurent Guerby]

Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> writes:
> In article <83lfe1$v6i$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:
> > If someone would independently html'ize the LRM, I'd never
> > need to visit adahome again.
> 
> Seeing as the HTML version of the RM is clearly a derived work
> which can only be distributed if the conditions of the original
> author are met (see copyright notice in the RM), it seems clear
> that this is either not distributable at all, or is freely
> distributable. Since it is on the web site, it seems reasonable
> to assume that it it freely distributable, and that the terms
> of the original copyright notice apply.

RM Copyright Notice:

RM> Copyright (C) 1992,1993,1994,1995  Intermetrics, Inc.
RM> 
RM> This copyright is assigned to the U.S. Government.  All rights
RM> reserved.
RM> 
RM> This document may be copied, in whole or in part, in any form or
RM> by any means, as is or with alterations, provided that (1)
RM> alterations are clearly marked as alterations and (2) this
RM> copyright notice is included unmodified in any copy.  Compiled
RM> copies of standard library units and examples need not contain
RM> this copyright notice so long as the notice is included in all
RM> copies of source code and documentation.

There is no obligation of making anything "freely available" as far as
I can tell. 

Magnus Kempe owns the copyright on the HTML annotations, and the
license prohibits making the HTML version available on any public web
site (intranet or ftp mirror of the tar.gz version is allowed
though). It is my understanding that he also produced a version with
annotations which available commercially only.

It is on my project list to write an Ada 95 program that takes the
Annotated Ada RM ASCII version (plus may be official and pending AI)
and automatically produces an HTML version, and may be have an
integrated GtkAda AARM browser with nice search capabilities. Not
started yet... May be it could make a good student project though,
exposing string/parsing => some internal structure => HTML output, and
OO GUI with GtkAda or JVM as a second project (GUI, reuse, indexing,
searching).

The HTML version of the Rationale I wrote (by hand plus emacs regexps
from the ASCII file) has no such restriction, and is freely available
to anyone for any use BTW.

--LG

Re: Beginner

[David Botton]

This should confirm your understanding:
http://www.ksce.com/docada/prices.html

David Botton

Laurent Guerby wrote in message
<86puw1qq2m.fsf@ppp-159-176.villette.club-internet.fr>...
>It is my understanding that he also produced a version with
>annotations which available commercially only.

Re: Beginner

[David Botton]

May I mirror your work on AdaPower.com?

David Botton

Laurent Guerby wrote in message
<86puw1qq2m.fsf@ppp-159-176.villette.club-internet.fr>...
>The HTML version of the Rationale I wrote (by hand plus emacs regexps
>from the ASCII file) has no such restriction, and is freely available
>to anyone for any use BTW.
>
>--LG

Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article
<86puw1qq2m.fsf@ppp-159-176.villette.club-internet.fr>,
  Laurent Guerby <guerby@acm.org> wrote:

> RM> This document may be copied, in whole or in part, in any
form or
> RM> by any means, as is or with alterations, provided that (1)
> RM> alterations are clearly marked as alterations and (2) this
> RM> copyright notice is included unmodified in any copy.
Compiled
> RM> copies of standard library units and examples need not
contain
> RM> this copyright notice so long as the notice is included in
all
> RM> copies of source code and documentation.
>
> There is no obligation of making anything "freely available"
as far as
> I can tell.
>
> Magnus Kempe owns the copyright on the HTML annotations, and
the
> license prohibits making the HTML version available on any
public web
> site (intranet or ftp mirror of the tar.gz version is allowed
> though). It is my understanding that he also produced a
version with
> annotations which available commercially only.



OK, a little lesson about copyright!

When Magnus makes a derived version, both he and Intermetrics
(well actually the US govt) have copyright interests.

NEITHER can make copies of this derived work without permission
from the other, and indeed Magnus can't even make the derived
version without permission, but the original copyright gives
him this permission.

However, it ONLY gives him permission if he includes the
original copyright notice.

Does he in fact include it?

If not, then the derived version he is publishing clearly
violates the rights of the original copyright holder since
he is making a copy without following the licensing provisions
of the copyright.

If the derived version he is publishing DOES include the
above copyright notice, then the license to copy the ENTIRE
document is preserved.

The whole point of this copyright and license is to make it
IMPOSSIBLE to have proprietary non-redistributable copies,
modified or otherwise, of this document. Essentially it
functions just like the GPL in this respect.

I can't see any other interpretation of either the intent of
the original copyright holder, or the language that was used
to express this intent.

Now technically of course, only the US Govt is an injured party
if the Magnus distribution is improper. However, in practice it
is extremely difficult to imagine that Magnus could successfully
pursue a copyright claim of his own in this situation. The last
sentence is simply my own personal opinion, and I am not an
attorney :-)


The important thing to remember is that you cannot copy ANY
copyrighted information without permission of the copyright
holder. This applies for example to GPL'ed software. Such
software is fully protected by copyright. You cannot copy
it without permission. The GPL gives you a license to copy
with certain limitations, but if these limitations are violated,
then the copy is a potential copyright violation.

For example, if some company sends you some GPL'ed software
accompanied by an NDA that prevents you from redistributing
 this software, then they are not conforming
to the requirements of the license. Hence the act of sending
you a copy is a copyright violation, since they have no valid
license to copy.


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Re: Beginner

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 975 bytes --]


Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> a �crit dans le message :
83oan6$vk6$1@nnrp1.deja.com...
>[...]
> If the derived version he is publishing DOES include the
> above copyright notice, then the license to copy the ENTIRE
> document is preserved.
>
I just checked the section obscurely titled "Copyright" ;-)
There is a copy of the original copyright, plus an additionnal statement
that "The HTML annotations and hypertext structure [...] are Copyright
Magnus Kempe".

The terms and conditions state that "this package may be freely copied and
distributed", with some restrictions. An important sentence says that
"copies of the package are allowed, but not recommended on other anonymous
FTP sites". So it seems that, irrespective of the legality of Kempe's
Copyright, it can be put on AdaPower.

--
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (Rosen.Adalog@wanadoo.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://pro.wanadoo.fr/adalog

Re: Beginner

[Laurent Guerby]

Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> If the derived version he is publishing DOES include the
> above copyright notice, then the license to copy the ENTIRE
> document is preserved.

The derived version does include the original notice,
and then:

<<
TERMS AND CONDITIONS FOR COPYING AND DISTRIBUTION

The "Ada 95 HTML-Hypertext Reference Manual," hereafter referred to as
the "package", is distributed in the hope that it will be useful, but
WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.

The whole package (wrapped in a compressed "tarfile" or "zip file")
may be freely copied and distributed, if accompanied by this
statement, and provided that integral copies of all files are included
(i.e. no change whatsoever is allowed). You are asked to help keep the
hypertext annotations consistent, identical everywhere in the
world. If you think something needs to be modified, tell me what and
why (see my e-mail address below).

Copies of the package (as a whole) are allowed but not recommended on
other anonymous FTP sites. Copies are NOT allowed on
government-subsidized FTP/WWW sites which require registration and
accounts. This package is intended exclusively for local installation;
individual files extracted from the package may NOT be exported
outside of a site (e.g. company or university) with FTP/WWW servers
other than the Home of the Brave Ada Programmers (HBAP).

TO REPEAT: THIS PACKAGE IS INTENDED EXCLUSIVELY FOR LOCAL
INSTALLATION. IN OTHER WORDS, NO MIRROR IS ALLOWED. PERIOD. YOU MAY
ONLY DISTRIBUTE THE WHOLE PACKAGE FOR LOCAL INSTALLATION, I.E. YOU MAY
NOT PUT THIS ON ANY PUBLIC WWW SITE.

You may not sell these hypertext annotations or include and use them
in any application. If you want to do something with it, ask me for
permission first; we'll work out an agreement.
>>

So even if one thinks that the added term and conditions are void, I
would recommand not putting it on a public web site without being
ready for potential litigation.

May be it would be better to go with Jerry's version anyway (I didn't
check the copyright and license but I guess it's ok ;-).

--LG

Re: Beginner

[Laurent Guerby]

jerry@jvdsys.stuyts.nl (Jerry van Dijk) writes:
> Note that I already did a texinfo conversion of the RM, and texi2html
> produces a HTML version.

Did you do so with some automated mean? It would be nice to get the
annotations too.

--LG

Re: Beginner

[Ted Dennison]

In article <83ojdi$efo$1@wanadoo.fr>,
  "Jean-Pierre Rosen" <rosen.adalog@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
> I just checked the section obscurely titled "Copyright" ;-)
>
> The terms and conditions state that "this package may be freely copied
> and distributed", with some restrictions. An important sentence says
> that "copies of the package are allowed, but not recommended on other
> anonymous FTP sites". So it seems that, irrespective of the legality
> of Kempe's Copyright, it can be put on AdaPower.

I disagree. For one thing, you left off the first half of the sentece,
which says:

The whole package (wrapped in a compressed "tarfile" or "zip file")...

For another, you ignore this part:
--
This package is intended exclusively for local installation; individual
files extracted from the package may NOT be exported outside of a site
(e.g. company or university) with FTP/WWW servers other than the Home of
the Brave Ada Programmers (HBAP).

TO REPEAT: THIS PACKAGE IS INTENDED EXCLUSIVELY FOR LOCAL INSTALLATION.
IN OTHER WORDS, NO MIRROR IS ALLOWED. PERIOD. YOU MAY ONLY DISTRIBUTE
THE WHOLE PACKAGE FOR LOCAL INSTALLATION, I.E. YOU MAY NOT PUT THIS ON
ANY PUBLIC WWW SITE.
--

The above pretty clearly prohibits (and is intended to prohibit) anyone
else from putting it up on their own public website (except as an FTP
download).

--
T.E.D.


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Re: Beginner

[David Botton]

Even if it was in fact it was allowed to mirror on AdaPower, Magnus clearly
did not intend on it being mirrored (even though it is in fact mirrored on a
number of sites other then AdaPower).

It is my express policy on AdaPower not to publish anything with out first
asking permission from the author (as any one here who has articles on
AdaPower knows) and since many of us have over the last year or two tried
contacting Magnus for one issue or another and have not received a responce,
a new HTML RM is the only option if there is to be an RM on AdaPower.

David Botton


Ted Dennison wrote in message <83qrlv$ofs$1@nnrp1.deja.com>...
>This package is intended exclusively for local installation; individual
>files extracted from the package may NOT be exported outside of a site
>(e.g. company or university) with FTP/WWW servers other than the Home of
>the Brave Ada Programmers (HBAP).

Re: Beginner

[Jerry van Dijk]

In article <86puw1qq2m.fsf@ppp-159-176.villette.club-interne guerby@acm.org writes:

>It is on my project list to write an Ada 95 program that takes the
>Annotated Ada RM ASCII version (plus may be official and pending AI)
>and automatically produces an HTML version,

Note that I already did a texinfo conversion of the RM, and texi2html
produces a HTML version. Check if either the GNAT public release (3.12p)
or the latest Ada-Mode (3.4b) includes it.

--
--  Jerry van Dijk  | email: jdijk@acm.org
--  Team-Ada        | www:   stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk
--  Paris, France   | Leiden, Holland

Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article
<86r9ggngum.fsf@ppp-170-129.villette.club-internet.fr>,
  Laurent Guerby <guerby@acm.org> wrote:
> Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > If the derived version he is publishing DOES include the
> > above copyright notice, then the license to copy the ENTIRE
> > document is preserved.
>
> The derived version does include the original notice,
> and then:


The original notice clearly gives permission to copy. it is
intended to do just that, and it can be interpreted in no
other manner. Any other text must simply be considered as
part of the document that is permitted to be copied.

Obviously we cannot force Intermetrics or the US Govt to
protect their rights and demand a clarification of what
is going on here, but the situation is in fact clear enough!


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Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <83rura$2gpc$1@news.gate.net>,
  "David Botton" <David@Botton.com> wrote:
> It is my express policy on AdaPower not to publish anything
with out first
> asking permission from the author (as any one here who has
articles on
> AdaPower knows) and since many of us have over the last year
or two tried
> contacting Magnus for one issue or another and have not
received a responce,
> a new HTML RM is the only option if there is to be an RM on
AdaPower.


By which of course you mean an HTML RM, I assume that it is
still the case that AdaPower will have ASCII and postscript
versions of the RM (personally I find the ASCII versions FAR
more useful than the HTML versions, since I can use regular
editor commands to find things, and write little programs that
read the text to do more interesting stuff).




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Re: Beginner

[Jerry van Dijk]

>> Note that I already did a texinfo conversion of the RM, and texi2html
>> produces a HTML version.
>
>Did you do so with some automated mean? It would be nice to get the
>annotations too.

Alas, no, I used a bunch of macro's for the editor I use.

--
--
--  Jerry van Dijk  | email: jdijk@acm.org
--  Team-Ada        | www:   stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk
--  Paris, France   | Leiden, Holland

Re: Beginner

[Robert Dewar]

In article <3879C66D.28C88D3C@bton.ac.uk>,
  John English <je@bton.ac.uk> wrote:
> > However, it ONLY gives him permission if he includes the
> > original copyright notice.
> >
> > Does he in fact include it?
>
> Yes; see
http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/language/ada/lrm95/cright.htm
>

And of course this included notice gives permission for anyone
to copy the document.


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Re: Beginner

[Ted Dennison]

In article <85cmqc$2g6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> In article <3879C66D.28C88D3C@bton.ac.uk>,
>   John English <je@bton.ac.uk> wrote:
> > Yes; see
> http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/language/ada/lrm95/cright.htm
> >
>
> And of course this included notice gives permission for anyone
> to copy the document.

Where "the document" is the text LRM, yes. It does not say anything
about Magnus' html tags he put around that text. Magnus' license does
talk about that; it says I can't post it on my website in html form.
Lots of Ada books quoted the LRM in places too. That doesn't make the
whole text of the book freely distributable.

Clearly if I want to cut out the actual LRM text and paste it into
something else, the original license applies. But if I want to do
something involving the HTML tagging, I'd think I have to follow Magnus'
license.

--
T.E.D.


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Re: Beginner

[Ted Dennison]

In article <85ct50$7eo$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
  Ted Dennison <dennison@telepath.com> wrote:
> Lots of Ada books quoted the LRM in places too. That doesn't make the
> whole text of the book freely distributable.

Hmmm. But then again, that would might be an example of fair use, where
nothing more than a reference to the other work would be needed anyway.
Not a good example. Oh well.

I guess if I truly understood all this stuff, I'd be making too much
money suing people to do any Ada development. :-)

--
T.E.D.


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Re: Beginner

[John English]

Robert Dewar wrote:
> OK, a little lesson about copyright!
> 
> When Magnus makes a derived version, both he and Intermetrics
> (well actually the US govt) have copyright interests.
> 
> NEITHER can make copies of this derived work without permission
> from the other, and indeed Magnus can't even make the derived
> version without permission, but the original copyright gives
> him this permission.
> 
> However, it ONLY gives him permission if he includes the
> original copyright notice.
> 
> Does he in fact include it?

Yes; see http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/language/ada/lrm95/cright.htm

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 John English              | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk
 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
 Dept. of Computing        | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS **
 University of Brighton    |    -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk
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Re: Beginner

[John English]

Ted Dennison wrote:
> In article <85cmqc$2g6$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   Robert Dewar <robert_dewar@my-deja.com> wrote:
> > In article <3879C66D.28C88D3C@bton.ac.uk>,
> >   John English <je@bton.ac.uk> wrote:
> > > Yes; see
> > http://burks.bton.ac.uk/burks/language/ada/lrm95/cright.htm
> > And of course this included notice gives permission for anyone
> > to copy the document.
> 
> Where "the document" is the text LRM, yes. It does not say anything
> about Magnus' html tags he put around that text. Magnus' license does
> talk about that; it says I can't post it on my website in html form.

As I said in another post, Magnus's copyright notice (at the URL
above) says this:

  "The "Ada 95 HTML-Hypertext Reference Manual," hereafter referred
   to as the "package", is distributed in the hope that it will be
   useful, but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty
   of MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. 

   This package may be freely copied and distributed, if accompanied
   by this statement, and provided that integral copies of all files
   are included (i.e. no change whatsoever is allowed). You are asked
   to help keep the hypertext annotations consistent, identical
   everywhere in the world. If you think something needs to be
   modified, tell me what and why (see my e-mail address below)."

It sounds like your version says something different -- is that so??
The copy I have doesn't seem to say anything about not putting it on
a website...

-----------------------------------------------------------------
 John English              | mailto:je@brighton.ac.uk
 Senior Lecturer           | http://www.it.bton.ac.uk/staff/je
 Dept. of Computing        | ** NON-PROFIT CD FOR CS STUDENTS **
 University of Brighton    |    -- see http://burks.bton.ac.uk
-----------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Beginner

[Marin D. Condic]

Ted Dennison wrote:
> I guess if I truly understood all this stuff, I'd be making too much
> money suing people to do any Ada development. :-)
> 
One would imaging that eventually some judge would say (with respect to
trying to restrict use of the ARM) "That dog don't hunt!" Clearly, the
intent of the government was that the ARM should be distributed and used
as widely as possible. Someone utilizing that work in its entirety with
a relatively small value added does not seem to provide a good reason to
limit that original intent. If the government provided 99% of the work
and you provide 1%, they'd seem like the senior partner here and their
interests would supercede yours.

But then, law school is my next academic ambition, so I'm a long way
from rendering opinions from the bench. :-)

MDC
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