Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Jean-Etienne Doucet]

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In article <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com>, Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:
| 
| I am wondering if Ada is unique among ANSI/ISO standardized languages with
| respect to the ready availability of the standards on-line? I don't think I've
| seen, for example, the ANSI-C or the C++ standard as a freely available download

not to mention the brand new ASIS standard :-(

| - much less having an on-line version in hypertext. It certainly makes
| learning/using Ada easier since you can download the standard without even having
| to cough up a credit card number ;-)
| 
| MDC

_______________________________________________________________________________
Jean-Etienne Doucet / LAAS-CNRS / Toulouse, France       E-mail: doucet@laas.fr
"S'il n'y a pas de solution, c'est qu'il n'y a pas de probl�me."  (Les Shadoks)

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Ted Dennison]

In article <37E79DB3.9EE51A39@pwfl.com>,
  e108678@pwflcom wrote:

> I am wondering if Ada is unique among ANSI/ISO standardized languages
> with respect to the ready availability of the standards on-line? I
> don't think I've seen, for example, the ANSI-C or the C++ standard as
> a freely available download

Typically that won't happen, as selling the standards is about the only
source of income ISO has. But often folks make draft versions of the
standards available. For example, a late draft version of the C++
standard is available at
http://www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/cpp/pub/wp/html/cd2/

There's also a C9X effort ( http://www.c9x.org/ ) which contains a draft
version of the next C standard. But the text there implies it will not
be made available after the standard is approved. Of course they are
running out of time for "9X". :-)

Hmm. I also find it quite intriguing that their webpage has a picture of
a lemming on it. :-)

I guess this is one area where the RFC process is superior to ISO.

--
T.E.D.


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Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Marin David Condic]

Ted Dennison wrote:

> Typically that won't happen, as selling the standards is about the only
> source of income ISO has. But often folks make draft versions of the
> standards available. For example, a late draft version of the C++
> standard is available at
> http://www.maths.warwick.ac.uk/cpp/pub/wp/html/cd2/
>

Oh, I don't object to ISO trying to make a buck. Somebody has to pay the
bills, right? I just think that even a relatively low price still acts as a
barrier to learning and using the language. You'll have people with casual
curiosity or a one-shot question who won't want to pay just for a quick
peek. There are college students without much money who will be inhibited.
There are corporate rules that make it difficult for me to get reimbursed
for shelling out cash for a document or book I think I need - Sure, I could
pay for it out of my own pocket, but that has a way of adding up to
non-trivial cash after a while and why should I do that when its a benefit
for the company? I'm sure you can think up even more reasons why "free" is
better than "cheap".

The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with
teaching my in-house Ada class. Many of my students are curious enough to
want to learn more on their own so I let them borrow books off of my shelf &
I get them their own personalized print-out of the standard so they can
refer to it while studying. The on-line hypertext version is also useful to
them when they've got a quick question about some feature.

>
> There's also a C9X effort ( http://www.c9x.org/ ) which contains a draft
> version of the next C standard. But the text there implies it will not
> be made available after the standard is approved. Of course they are
> running out of time for "9X". :-)
>
> Hmm. I also find it quite intriguing that their webpage has a picture of
> a lemming on it. :-)

I'm brushing up on C and learning C++ in anticipation of needing these
skills as I go about looking for a new job. Its been a couple of years since
I've had to do anything in C and I guess as time passes, one tends to forget
about all the pain that goes with it. As I plow through the C++ book, I keep
asking myself "Why would anybody do this if they weren't being forced to?"
The only answer I can come up with is that there is a huge mound of
available resources to go with it, so you live with screwy pointer
references to everything and the null terminated strings and all the
obfuscating operator symbols because this is the way you get at all the GUI
builders, debuggers, databases, OS calls, etc. etc, etc.

I know Ada has the ability to do most or all of what you can do with C++ in
terms of interfacing to all those spiffy tools, but it still lacks a nice,
full up, one-stop-shopping, kit where you get the whole ball of wax in one
shot. Sure, you can pull things together from a variety of sources and get
the same capabilities, but that's difficult and tends to force you to be
spending time fooling with the toolset rather than moving the mission
forward. And even if you had the integrated toolset, it wouldn't be doing
things "The Ada Way" - you'd be writing Ada++ code. (For example: I think
callbacks from a GUI are a kludge when you've got a language that will do
tasking.)

Granted, we've made advances, but C/C++ continue to sell IMHO more because
of the infrastructure than because of technical superiority.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Mark Lundquist]

Marin David Condic wrote:

> I know Ada has the ability to do most or all of what you can do with C++ in
> terms of interfacing to all those spiffy tools, but it still lacks a nice,
> full up, one-stop-shopping, kit where you get the whole ball of wax in one
> shot. Sure, you can pull things together from a variety of sources and get
> the same capabilities, but that's difficult and tends to force you to be
> spending time fooling with the toolset rather than moving the mission
> forward.

That is absolutely right.

Mark

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[David Botton]

Marin David Condic wrote in message <37E90673.697F68E1@pwfl.com>...
>The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with
>teaching my in-house Ada class.

If it wasn't for the free standards document and GNAT, I don't know if I
would have ever gotten in to Ada.

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Marin David Condic]

David Botton wrote:

> Marin David Condic wrote in message <37E90673.697F68E1@pwfl.com>...
> >The ability to download the Ada standard in .PS format has helped me with
> >teaching my in-house Ada class.
>
> If it wasn't for the free standards document and GNAT, I don't know if I
> would have ever gotten in to Ada.

IMHO, This is one of the things that the Ada community has done *right* in
promoting Ada. "Here's your compiler free of charge. Here's your standard
document free of charge. Here's some on-line tutorials to get you started free
of charge, etc. etc. etc." That makes it *very* easy for the student or
curious developer to charge off and start playing games with it.

I also think it helps that GNAT installs easily and reliably so that the
relatively new & unsophisticated computer programmer doesn't hit snags which
may discourage them.

Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a CD that had GNAT
on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a printed copy of the
ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or "Ada95 For Smart
People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the whole thing in a
shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that says "All this for
the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the
shelf next to the Visual C++ boxes. That and maybe a few guest appearances on
the computer-oriented radio chat shows and there may be a real surge in Ada
usage, eh?

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Preben Randhol]

Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:

| Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a CD that had GNAT
| on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a printed copy of the
| ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or "Ada95 For Smart
| People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the whole thing in a
| shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that says "All this for
| the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the
                                $29.95 I'd say.


-- 
Preben Randhol     [randhol@pvv.org]    [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] 
 "If you had just boarded an airliner and discovered that your team 
  of programmers had been responsible for the flight control software, 
  how many of you would disembark immediately?"             -- unknown

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Marin David Condic]

Preben Randhol wrote:

> Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:
> | the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA would stick it on the
>                                 $29.95 I'd say.

Well, first you need to be a little high so you have somewhere to mark it down to in
the "closeout" racks when a newer version becomes available. :-)

I've purchased plenty of programming textbooks alone that cost $29.95 and up.
Throwing in a compiler and some other spiffy stuff ought to bring the value up a
bit. Or did you have in mind the notion of simply writing a "Learn Ada95 In 21 Days"
book and including the compiler glued to the back cover and getting it some shelf
space at Waldenbooks? Sounds more like a $39.95 price point. Ultimately, we need to
set MR = MC and finding that price point could be complicated ;-)

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Robert Dewar]

In article <m3905xfsbq.fsf@kiuk0156.chembio.ntnu.no>,
  Preben Randhol <randhol@pvv.org> wrote:
> Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:
>
> | Now suppose for a minute that someone were to put together a
CD that had GNAT
> | on it along with a good hypertext/interactive tutorial, a
printed copy of the
> | ARM and a book entitled "Teach Yourself Ada95 In 21 Days" or
"Ada95 For Smart
> | People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". Put the
whole thing in a
> | shrink wrapped box with spiffy graphics and a sticker that
says "All this for
> | the amazing discount price of $99.95" and see if CompUSA
would stick it on the
>                                 $29.95 I'd say.



Is the Walnut Creek CD ROM really so very far from this goal???b


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Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[P.S. Norby]

Marin David Condic wrote:
>
>"Ada95 For Smart
> People (because all the dummies are using C++!)". 

Oh, foo!  You stole my book title.  ;-)

P.S.N.

 "Software engineers are, in many ways, similar to normal people"

        --  Scott Adams

"No excuses.  No embarrassment.  No apologies...
 Ada -- the most trusted and powerful programming language
 on earth, or in space." -- S. Tucker Taft
 
\\\    \\\    \\\    \\\    \\\    \\\    \\\    \\\    \\\ 
( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)   ( :)
///    ///    ///    ///    ///    ///    ///    ///    /// 
(Speaking only for myself)

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Marin David Condic]

"P.S. Norby" wrote:

> Marin David Condic wrote:
> >
> >"Ada95 For Smart
> > People (because all the dummies are using C++!)".
>
> Oh, foo!  You stole my book title.  ;-)

O.K. So we just co-author it, eh?

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Robert Dewar]

In article <37EB8375.41BD@cacd.rockwell.com>,
  "P.S. Norby" <psnorby@cacd.rockwell.com> wrote:
> Marin David Condic wrote:
> >
> >"Ada95 For Smart
> > People (because all the dummies are using C++!)".


If you think about it the book "C++ for Dummies" is pretty
frightening. The idea that software is appropriately written
by people willing to think of themselves as dummies does NOT
seem a good thing :-(



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Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Marin David Condic]

Robert Dewar wrote:

> If you think about it the book "C++ for Dummies" is pretty
> frightening. The idea that software is appropriately written
> by people willing to think of themselves as dummies does NOT
> seem a good thing :-(
>

I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For
Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so
pejorative as it might seem. The 'For Dummies' probably works because it
makes people feel comfortable with the book, believing that it won't
contain material so turgid or murky that only a rocket scientist could
figure it out.

I suppose that everyone has to start out learning programming somewhere,
but I'd agree that it would be better if people approached it with the
attitude that it is something which requires good mental capabilities
and hard work. It shouldn't be viewed as something that anyone can do
with a week's worth of training.

MDC
--
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

Visit my web page at: http://www.mcondic.com/

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Preben Randhol]

Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:

| I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For
| Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so
| pejorative as it might seem. The 'For Dummies' probably works because it
| makes people feel comfortable with the book, believing that it won't
| contain material so turgid or murky that only a rocket scientist could
| figure it out.

I actually saw a book on crystallisation (it was scientific and
supposedly good) called "Crystallization for beginners". I guess
Crystallization for dummies would be a bad sales trick in the
scientific community at least ;-)
 
| I suppose that everyone has to start out learning programming somewhere,
| but I'd agree that it would be better if people approached it with the
| attitude that it is something which requires good mental capabilities
| and hard work. It shouldn't be viewed as something that anyone can do
| with a week's worth of training.

I agree.

-- 
Preben Randhol     [randhol@pvv.org]    [http://www.pvv.org/~randhol/] 
 "If you had just boarded an airliner and discovered that your team 
  of programmers had been responsible for the flight control software, 
  how many of you would disembark immediately?"             -- unknown

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Keith Thompson]

Marin David Condic <condicma@bogon.pwfl.com> writes:
> I suspect the 'XXX For Dummies' titles have really come to mean 'XXX For
> Those With No Experience In The Area At All' and is not quite so
> pejorative as it might seem.

Still, I've always been tempted to go into a bookstore with a bunch of
yellow on black "is" stickers.  "XXX (Is) For Dummies".

-- 
Keith Thompson (The_Other_Keith) kst@cts.com  <http://www.ghoti.net/~kst>
San Diego Supercomputer Center           <*>  <http://www.sdsc.edu/~kst>
"Oh my gosh!  You are SO ahead of your time!" -- anon.

Re: GUI - "The Ada Way"

[Vladimir Olensky]

tmoran@bix.com wrote in message ...
>  This is the way we went in CLAW (Class Library of
>  Ada for Windows).

Just wondering - when there will be the next great release
of CLAW with new exiting features?

We have generic version of CLAW (r.1.2) and paid additionally
for one year maintenance  hoping to have the next release of
the enhanced CLAW with bug fixes and new features
before the end of the year.
I hoped that we would have something additional   for
 that additional money.
Generally I have very high opinion of CLAW though I think there
are areas where it could be improved.
RR Software has my suggestions which I sent   to Randall Brukardt
at the beginning of this year.
Generally they included suggestions to add more components to it including
additional functionality regarding communications in addition to sockets
( including overlapped serial async communications package, mailslots,
pipes, memory mapped files ) ,  thick ODBC bindings and may be some
other things.
 Idea was to make it more close to Delphi in functionality and to have
 something  more or less close to TAO regarding communications.

My opinion  is that CLAW could  be a very good  foundation for
Windows Ada framework that is much more than a class library
and GUI builder for just building  Ada Windows GUIs.


What's interesting some time ago Sun introduced new standard Java class
library for doing serial communications. So this is indicator that
professional
serial communication package is a MUST for any serious development
environment.
Having TCP/IP, Serial Communications and ODBC allows  quickly build any kind
of proxies between equipment and (remote) control applications.
In addition to that  named pipes and mailslots is effective way for
communications
between different applications and threads  that may reside on different NT
machines.
In this respect  Java didn't went that far. It uses anonymous pipes that
primary use
is to provide communications between different application threads.
If CLAW had all that it would be invaluable.

Regards,
Vladimir Olensky

Re: GUI - "The Ada Way"

[Vincent Marciante]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 
> This would be hard to describe in detail in this forum. What I have in mind is
...
>

Thankyou for the description.


Sincerely,

Vincenat Marciante

Re: The International standard paper on Ada !!

[Wes Groleau]

>     I am studying PL , comparing several killing languages.

Not sure what "killing" translates to in your language.
In English, "killer" is slang for something very desirable.
That would describe Ada in the minds of many.
But Ada is definitely NOT "dead" (killed).