Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[bkwposx]

In article <79scn2$k04@drn.newsguy.com>, Bob@nospam.com wrote:
>In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> 
>>Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
>>in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the 
>>military. 
>
>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
>
>it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
>
>Ada is only used to help kill people. 


Or defend people.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Steve O'Neill]

Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads
> for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people.
> 
> Bob

Thanks so much, Bob, for that considered opinion based on your obviously
vast experience.

Sorry to dissapoint you but, no, they aren't the only ones that use
Ada.  But others that use it don't care to publicize that fact because
they see it as a tactical advantage.

Steve O'Neill

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[dennison]

In article <79scn2$k04@drn.newsguy.com>,
  Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
>
> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.
>
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?

No.


T.E.D.

-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Paul Whittington]

That's one way to look at it.  I prefer the old adage that "the best
defense is a good offense."  In that light, I think it's more the case
that Ada is used to keep people from killing one another.

Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> 
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> 
> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.
> 
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people.
> 
> Bob
> 

-- 
Paul Whittington
GrepNet, Inc.
(208)523-7375
paul@grep.net

"Even if you're on the right track you'll get
 run over if you stand still."

Will Rogers

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Jerry Petrey]

Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> 
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> 
> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.
> 
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people.
> 
> Bob
> 


We use Ada to control our large transport aircraft, both military and
civilian versions.  Our new C-130J was used last December to fly 3 loads
of supplies (83,000 pounds total) to the hurricane victims in Hondorus
as its first operational mission.

Jerry
-- 
=====================================================================
=  Jerry Petrey - Consultant Software Engineer  - Member Team Ada   =
=                 Lockheed Martin                 Member Team Forth =
=====================================================================

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <79scn2$k04@drn.newsguy.com>, Bob@nospam.com writes:
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
>  
>>Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
>>in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the 
>>military. 
> 
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people. 

For a response more in line with your political philosophy,
try this possibility:

	The military are the only ones who have a tough time
	finding people to take their Ada programming jobs.

Another consideration is that if you are opposed to firing
a weapon at someone is that you should be equally opposed to
having a weapon fire by accident.  Ada is designed to avoid
program errors.

Until you have eliminated weapons (the topic of a different
newsgroup, please), the ones we have should be under control.

Larry Kilgallen
programming in Ada for 11 years without military involvement

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[David Emery]

Ada has been widely used in ATC systems.  When CAATS comes on-line 
in Canada and some US systems finish fielding, Ada will control your
flights between here and Europe.  And Ada is used in many ATC
projects within Europe, too.

				dave

Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> 
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> 
> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.
> 
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people.
> 
> Bob
>

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Marin David Condic]

Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> 
> In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> 
> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.
> 
> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> 
> it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> 
> Ada is only used to help kill people.
> 
You say that as if it were a *bad* thing! Try this exercise: Stand with
your back to the wall holding a firearm. Wait for some terrorists,
foreign invaders, street thugs or whoever is out there with ill intent
to come charging at you fully intending to end your life to gain the
money in your wallet, the land you live on or some negotiating points
with powerful nations. Decide at that juncture if you will raise the
firearm and defend yourself. Afterwards, you can criticize the men and
women who protect your butt from exactly these threats every day by
possessing and being willing to use deadly force.

As for Ada being used only in the military: Not true. Our commercial jet
engines have adopted this technology as well. So if your plane lands
safely, you can thank Ada technology in part for getting you there.

MDC
-- 
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
Ph: 561.796.8997         Fx: 561.796.4669
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force. 
Like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

    --  George Washington

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Dino Gianisis]

From the previous two posts it seems that Ada is used in commercial
aviation industry primarily. Why ? What features does it contain that
give it the edge over lets say C++ ?. Also based on supply/demand I would
think that engineers with Ada experience could name their price these days ?.
I apologize for the simple question to all the Ada S/W experts out there
but my studies have emphasized H/W design (so far).



> Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> >
> > >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> > >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> > >military.
> >
> > Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> >
> > it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> >
> > Ada is only used to help kill people.
> >
>
>
> As for Ada being used only in the military: Not true. Our commercial jet
> engines have adopted this technology as well. So if your plane lands
> safely, you can thank Ada technology in part for getting you there.
>
>     Ada has been widely used in ATC systems.  When CAATS comes on-line
> in Canada and some US systems finish fielding, Ada will control your
> flights between here and Europe.  And Ada is used in many ATC
> projects within Europe, too.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Steve Doiel]

>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
>
No.  We're using it to figure out how to cut up logs in a sawmill.


>it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
>
>Ada is only used to help kill people.
>


I suppose you might see us using Ada to help kill trees.

I look at it differntly.  By using Ada to cut up logs efficiently, fewer
trees
get killed to produce the same amount of lumber.

SteveD

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[kevin]

In article <36C24646.804BC44E@stny.lrun.com>, Dino says...
>

> Also based on supply/demand I would
>think that engineers with Ada experience could name their price these days ?.

Actually, Ada programmers make less than C++ or Java or even C.

You don't have to believe me, just go to http://www.dice.com, search
for Ada as key word, you'll see about 30 or so positions, with less pay than
C/C++/Java/Unix positions. (If you search for C++ you'll get 100's of
positions). 

When I last was looking for a position, calling the Ada work agents listed,
they would be shocked if I mentioned a rate over $50/hr. Yet, calling the
C++ agents, and asking for $80-$100/hr was not even questioned, and many 
positions would be happy to pay that for the right person. One agent told
me not to bother sending my resume if I am asking for more than $50/hr,
and this was for a huge defense project done by a huge defense company.

The reason is simple. Ada is used 99% of the time in defense and/or
goverment work. And these pay less than private commercial work where
Ada is hardly used.

It is sad really, since Ada is a better language with no question, but
since there is little demand for it, the pay is less, even though there
are many more C++ programmers, the C++ programmer still makes more than
then Ada programmer.

This is my own list of software skills, listed on decreasing order 
of pay level:

1. C++/Perl/Java beans/Corba/Networking,System programming, drivers, etc..
2. C/Unix/Windows/GUI/Plain Java/Swing/Web-HTML-CGI/Porting work ..
3. Database stuff, oracle/sybase etc../system admin work, scripts
4. VB, word, backoffice, all other MS boring stuff.
5. Ada/real-time/embeded programming/defense work

(notice no one cares about design and software engineering in the real
world, that is why this skill is not listed, no one ever asked me about
those skills, they only ask how many years of C++ I have).

Well, hope this helps.

Kevin

US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[SDC]

System Development Consultants

SDC, Inc. is a quality provider of Information Technology and Engineering 
professionals on a contract basis.  SDC management is represented by 
individuals that have senior level experience in the professions they 
serve.  With offices in western Minneapolis and southern California, SDC 
is headquartered in Carlsbad, CA and has been serving commercial, 
government and military clients since 1990.

Requirement: Ada Software Engineers 
Location:    Minneapolis


Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the 
military.  Experience with Ada 95 and Rational APEX is a plus.  Must be a 
US Citizen.  

Please contact us immediately.

Contact:  Al Will
           
SDC, Inc.
PO Box 178
Excelsior, MN 55331

(877) 364-1005 toll free
(612) 470-4211 voice
(612) 470-1822 FAX

email: alwill@ix.netcom.com

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Bob]

In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
 
>Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
>in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the 
>military. 

Is the military the only ones who use Ada?

it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.

Ada is only used to help kill people. 

Bob
 

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[fraser]

I nearly cried when fraser@nospam.com said:

>Ha!  So Ada is used to kill trees as well!

Let this be a lesson to all you young players out there: Never, ever follow
up an article that you haven't finished reading.

We now return to your regularly scheduled language spear waving.

F.
--
Fraser Wilson   |  700 East Middlefield Rd  |  Phone:  650 943 5270
Sr R&D Engineer |  Mountain View, CA 94043  |  Fax:    650 934 1227
Synopsys Inc    |  USA                      |  Email:  ^nospam^synopsys
           Ada, Linux, PowerPC: The Golden Triangle

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Jean-Pierre Rosen]

>On 10 Feb 1999 08:38:58 -0800, Bob@nospam.com wrote:
>
>>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
>...
>>Bob
>>
>
One of my clients developped a medical instrument in Ada.
THAT'S better than weapons, isn't it ?
(and isn't it better to raise constraint_error than to burn the
patient ?) ;-)
---------------------------------------------------------
           J-P. Rosen (Rosen.Adalog@wanadoo.fr)
Visit Adalog's web site at http://perso.wanadoo.fr/adalog

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Tom Moran]

>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
No.  I've used it for stock and commodity data base processing,
teleprompter for the local community access TV channel, and fetching
from the web, and then analyzing, election statistics, among other
things.   Is C(++) used only for games and high style/low content word
processing? 

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Dr Steve Sangwine]

On 10 Feb 1999 08:38:58 -0800, Bob@nospam.com wrote:

>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
...
>Bob
> 

I recall reading that the signalling system on the Channel Tunnel
Eurostar passenger trains between England and France  (and
quite possibly the recent French TGV trains) is written in Ada.
This is for obvious reasons of safety and system integrity. Ada
is also used in recent civilian aircraft, not just in air traffic
control. Perhaps someone from Airbus Industrie can comment.

Steve.

Dr Steve Sangwine
Electronic Engineering Group
The University of Reading

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Jerry Petrey]

kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
> 
> In article <36C24646.804BC44E@stny.lrun.com>, Dino says...
> >
> 
> > Also based on supply/demand I would
> >think that engineers with Ada experience could name their price these days ?.
> 
> Actually, Ada programmers make less than C++ or Java or even C.
> 

This is your opinion but unless you have access to EVERY programmer's
employment records, it is purely a guess.

I have not found your guess to be the case in my experience.

> You don't have to believe me, just go to http://www.dice.com, search
> for Ada as key word, you'll see about 30 or so positions, with less pay than
> C/C++/Java/Unix positions. (If you search for C++ you'll get 100's of
> positions).
>

I just did a search and found 206 Ada positions on this site.

 
> When I last was looking for a position, calling the Ada work agents listed,
> they would be shocked if I mentioned a rate over $50/hr. Yet, calling the
> C++ agents, and asking for $80-$100/hr was not even questioned, and many
> positions would be happy to pay that for the right person. One agent told
> me not to bother sending my resume if I am asking for more than $50/hr,
> and this was for a huge defense project done by a huge defense company.
>

Again, my experience has not found this magic $50 barrier for Ada.

 
> The reason is simple. Ada is used 99% of the time in defense and/or
> goverment work. And these pay less than private commercial work where
> Ada is hardly used.
> 
> It is sad really, since Ada is a better language with no question, but
> since there is little demand for it, the pay is less, even though there
> are many more C++ programmers, the C++ programmer still makes more than
> then Ada programmer.
>

I find the demand for Ada very high and the rates going up.
You have to know where to look and have the proper skills.
 
> This is my own list of software skills, listed on decreasing order
> of pay level:
> 
> 1. C++/Perl/Java beans/Corba/Networking,System programming, drivers, etc..
> 2. C/Unix/Windows/GUI/Plain Java/Swing/Web-HTML-CGI/Porting work ..
> 3. Database stuff, oracle/sybase etc../system admin work, scripts
> 4. VB, word, backoffice, all other MS boring stuff.
> 5. Ada/real-time/embeded programming/defense work
> 

Again, speculation only.

> (notice no one cares about design and software engineering in the real
> world, that is why this skill is not listed, no one ever asked me about
> those skills, they only ask how many years of C++ I have).
> 
> 
> Kevin


Perhaps the places doing C++ don't care about design and software
engineering (why I am I not supprised) but I find the ones using 
Ada do care and are willing to pay for it.


Jerry

-- 
=====================================================================
=  Jerry Petrey - Consultant Software Engineer  - Member Team Ada   =
=                 Lockheed Martin                 Member Team Forth =
=====================================================================

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Marin David Condic]

Dino Gianisis wrote:
> 
> From the previous two posts it seems that Ada is used in commercial
> aviation industry primarily. Why ? What features does it contain that
> give it the edge over lets say C++ ?. Also based on supply/demand I would
> think that engineers with Ada experience could name their price these days ?.
> I apologize for the simple question to all the Ada S/W experts out there
> but my studies have emphasized H/W design (so far).
> 
Well, Ada is used in more than commercial aviation - its just that it
got a good deal of its start with avionic systems for the military, so
it was natural to branch off into the commercial side of things.

Ada is particularly well suited to avionic systems because in many of
them you absolutely, positively cannot tolerate a failure. Ada's
extensive compile-time and run-time checks are part of the plan to make
sure you catch errors well before they have a chance to cause trouble.
The language design itself was carefully specified to reduce the
probability of errors that might result from ambiguous syntax or unsafe
features. 

There is, of course, no reason why Ada can't be used in most any other
area where you would want a general purpose, full featured programming
language. The added safety may not be critical, but it is a plus. (Who
wants to have their GUI app crash because they ran an array index beyond
the bounds & didn't catch the problem until the software is released?)
Ada also provides features which help in the development & lifespan of
large, long lived systems. You don't generally think of Ada in the
context of quick & dirty throw-away apps.

As for naming my price? Hey, I'd love to see a salary survey of
Ada/Embedded programmers so I could find out how badly underpaid I am
:-) The company keeps telling me that I'm getting an industry average
wage for aerospace engineers in West Palm Beach. (And exactly how is it
that we get "World Class" employees on an "Industry Average" wage? :-)


MDC
-- 
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
Ph: 561.796.8997         Fx: 561.796.4669
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force. 
Like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

    --  George Washington

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Andrzej Lewandowski]

Marin David Condic wrote:
> 

> The language design itself was carefully specified to reduce the
> probability of errors that might result from ambiguous syntax or unsafe
> features.
> 
> There is, of course, no reason why Ada can't be used in most any other
> area where you would want a general purpose, full featured programming
> language. The added safety may not be critical, but it is a plus. (Who
> wants to have their GUI app crash because they ran an array index beyond
> the bounds & didn't catch the problem until the software is released?)
> Ada also provides features which help in the development & lifespan of
> large, long lived systems. You don't generally think of Ada in the
> context of quick & dirty throw-away apps.


From comp.lang.eiffel: "Why Eiffel is not popular? Because before
you start coding in Eiffel you have to spend some time THINKING".

It seems that this applies to Ada, too...

A.L.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[kevin]

In article <36C2E425.D4A791E9@hercii.mar.lmco.com>, Jerry says...
>
 
>> 
>> Actually, Ada programmers make less than C++ or Java or even C.
>> 
>

>This is your opinion but unless you have access to EVERY programmer's
>employment records, it is purely a guess.
>

It is more than a guess. It is based on a small sampling I agree, but
it is the same small sample used for C++ also.


>
>> You don't have to believe me, just go to http://www.dice.com, search
>> for Ada as key word, you'll see about 30 or so positions, with less pay than
>> C/C++/Java/Unix positions. (If you search for C++ you'll get 100's of
>> positions).
>>

>
>I just did a search and found 206 Ada positions on this site.
>

I agree. it is more than 30, but lets see the whole picture then. This is
what on dice now:

C++/C   24,256  positions open
Java     9,613  positions open
Ada        206  positions open

So, compared to C++/C, Ada has 0.8%, this is less than 1% of what C/C++ has.

Why would I look for Ada as a career, when C/C++ has more than 120 times
the amount of work out there?

>
>Again, my experience has not found this magic $50 barrier for Ada.
>

I can only go with what is out there. I called a number of agents from Dice
who handle Ada, and this is what I was told. No one even asked me how many
years I had in Ada.  There are less Ada positions, and it pays less.

>
>I find the demand for Ada very high and the rates going up.
>You have to know where to look and have the proper skills.
>

0.8 of one percent compared to C/C++ is hardly a high demand. Dice is one
of the biggest and well known places to find jobs. Do you know of
another Job bank that will proof your point?
 
>> This is my own list of software skills, listed on decreasing order
>> of pay level:
>> 
>> 1. C++/Perl/Java beans/Corba/Networking,System programming, drivers, etc..
>> 2. C/Unix/Windows/GUI/Plain Java/Swing/Web-HTML-CGI/Porting work ..
>> 3. Database stuff, oracle/sybase etc../system admin work, scripts
>> 4. VB, word, backoffice, all other MS boring stuff.
>> 5. Ada/real-time/embeded programming/defense work
>> 

>
>Again, speculation only.
>

Not really. again go to Dice and do your own search. and find out.
Go to any job newsgroup and find out. Many jobs news groups do not
even have a single Ada position open.

>
>Perhaps the places doing C++ don't care about design and software
>engineering (why I am I not supprised) but I find the ones using 
>Ada do care and are willing to pay for it.
>
 
I agree. I find that Ada programmers in general have better feel for
design issues and abstration and all those good things. I think it is
becuase the Ada language forces one to think that way.

The point was, that the Ada market for porgrammers is almost dead, and
any one thinking of choosing Ada as a career, must think twice if they
plan to be able to continue to pay the rent for few more years.

I hope this suituation will change, but I dont see what will change it. The
commerical world we live in do not care for high quality software really, it
wants something hacked quickly that looks pretty and shiny from the outside 
even if it is junk from the inside. But this is the real world we live in, 
you give the customer what they want. They are happpy for the moment, and
you are being paid well. So evey one wins.

Kevin.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Marin David Condic]

Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> From comp.lang.eiffel: "Why Eiffel is not popular? Because before
> you start coding in Eiffel you have to spend some time THINKING".
> 
> It seems that this applies to Ada, too...
> 

"Hey guys: We just got that new whozits project! You get started writing
the code while I go talk to the customer and find out what he wants..."


MDC
-- 
Marin David Condic
Real Time & Embedded Systems, Propulsion Systems Analysis
United Technologies, Pratt & Whitney, Large Military Engines
M/S 731-95, P.O.B. 109600, West Palm Beach, FL, 33410-9600
Ph: 561.796.8997         Fx: 561.796.4669
***To reply, remove "bogon" from the domain name.***

"Government is not reason. It is not eloquence. It is a force. 
Like fire, a dangerous servant and a fearful master."

    --  George Washington

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Mike Silva]

Dino Gianisis wrote in message <36C24646.804BC44E@stny.lrun.com>...
>From the previous two posts it seems that Ada is used in commercial
>aviation industry primarily. Why ? What features does it contain that
>give it the edge over lets say C++?....

Being new to Ada myself I wouldn't normally have replied, but Tucker Taft
posted some comments in another thread recently that I found very
informative, so I'll pass them along.  He said:

<begin quote>
It is correct to say that you can now write safe programs
in C++.  But C++ is not a safe language, in that many of the
basic "building blocks" of the language are not safe.  In fact,
because the "defaults" were mostly inherited from C, the "default"
building blocks are almost all unsafe.  For example:

By default in C++ (and C):

   arrays -- no bounds checking
   pointers -- not default initialized, no checking for null when
     dereferenced
   arithmetic -- no overflow checking
   cast -- no checking for inappropriate "narrowing" casts
   "class" parameters -- passed by copy; "chopped" off (run-time
      type identity lost)
   address-of ("&") operation -- no protection from dangling references

In a "safe" language, the defaults (at least) are safe.
There may be escape hatches for certain low-level programming
situations.
<end quote>

Ada's emphasis on safe programming methods, as well as its targeting of
realtime embedded systems (though I should quickly point out that it is a
very general purpose language), are the features that have prompted me to
learn it.

There are a number of Ada sources on the net -- http://www.adahome.com is a
good place to start, and there you will find more Ada advocacy.

Mike

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[dennison]

In article <36C2F746.7A5A7FB@pwfl.com>,
  diespammer@pwfl.com wrote:

> There is, of course, no reason why Ada can't be used in most any other
> area where you would want a general purpose, full featured programming
> language. The added safety may not be critical, but it is a plus. (Who
> wants to have their GUI app crash because they ran an array index beyond
> the bounds & didn't catch the problem until the software is released?)

Actually there are lots of people out there who *love* it when that happens.
If you don't believe me, check out
http://www.cultdeadcow.com/cDc_files/cDc-351/

Of course if you don't *want* people cracking your system, you're better off
being save and using Ada. :-)


ps. If the link is broken, please tell me. We have recently been net-nannied,
and this site is on the verboten list, so I won't know.

T.E.D.

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Mike Silva]

Marin David Condic wrote in message <36C2FF3C.DB852732@pwfl.com>...
>Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
>> From comp.lang.eiffel: "Why Eiffel is not popular? Because before
>> you start coding in Eiffel you have to spend some time THINKING".
>>
>> It seems that this applies to Ada, too...
>>
>
>"Hey guys: We just got that new whozits project! You get started writing
>the code while I go talk to the customer and find out what he wants..."


Wouldn't it be faster to just both write code?

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Dalen Kruse]

Marin David Condic wrote:

> Bob@nospam.com wrote:
> >
> > In article <alwillF6y5tr.7Cq@netcom.com>, alwill@netcom.com says...
> >
> > >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> > >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> > >military.
> >
> > Is the military the only ones who use Ada?
> >
> > it sure looks like it. Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.
> >
> > Ada is only used to help kill people.
> >
> You say that as if it were a *bad* thing! Try this exercise: Stand with
> your back to the wall holding a firearm. Wait for some terrorists,
> foreign invaders, street thugs or whoever is out there with ill intent
> to come charging at you fully intending to end your life to gain the
> money in your wallet, the land you live on or some negotiating points
> with powerful nations. Decide at that juncture if you will raise the
> firearm and defend yourself. Afterwards, you can criticize the men and
> women who protect your butt from exactly these threats every day by
> possessing and being willing to use deadly force.
>
> As for Ada being used only in the military: Not true. Our commercial jet
> engines have adopted this technology as well. So if your plane lands
> safely, you can thank Ada technology in part for getting you there.
>
> MDC
>

Bravo!  Here's an interesting quote that Bob can take a look at.  Maybe his opinion
would be altered then.

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things.  The decayed and
degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing
is worth war is much worse.  The person who has nothing for which he is
willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal
safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless
made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

                         --John Stewart Mill

- Dalen
-------------------------------------------------------------------

"We laugh at honor and are shocked to find traitors in our midst."

          -- C.S. Lewis

Dalen Kruse
Software Engineer, Airborne Systems
Lockheed Martin Tactical Defense Systems
Eagan, Minnesota
E-mail: Dalen.D.Kruse@lmco.com

Any opinions expressed are my own.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[fraser]

I nearly cried when nospam_steved@pacifier.com said:

>>Is the military the only ones who use Ada?

>No.  We're using it to figure out how to cut up logs in a sawmill.

Ha!  So Ada is used to kill trees as well!

:)

Fraser.
--
Fraser Wilson   |  700 East Middlefield Rd  |  Phone:  650 943 5270
Sr R&D Engineer |  Mountain View, CA 94043  |  Fax:    650 934 1227
Synopsys Inc    |  USA                      |  Email:  ^nospam^synopsys
           Ada, Linux, PowerPC: The Golden Triangle

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Gautier]

> >Our client is looking for several experienced Ada Software Engineers to work
> >in several different areas of a large embedded real-time system for the
> >military.

> Is the military the only ones who use Ada?

Of course they are, everybody knows that. You didn't ?

> it sure looks like it.

Not only it looks so. It's the truth.

> Becuase that is all what I see the Ada job Ads for.

Is it needed to confirm an evidence ?

> Ada is only used to help kill people.

Worse: Ada is a killer language.
Would they let it escape outside the confined area,
the effects would be awfuly damaging.
Plenty of civilian macro-assembler(++) jobs would dramatically disappear.

-- 
Gautier

Radioactive Ada @ http://www.unine.ch/math/Personnel/Assistants/Gautier/Gaut_FTP.htm

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[robert_dewar]

In article <79tk4j$cqf@drn.newsguy.com>,
  kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:

> Actually, Ada programmers make less than C++ or Java or
> even C.

Reading this first sentence, it sounds dubious since it
cites no reliable source.

> You don't have to believe me, just go to
> http://www.dice.com, search
> for Ada as key word, you'll see about 30 or so positions,
> with less pay than
> C/C++/Java/Unix positions. (If you search for C++ you'll
> get 100's of
> positions).

Ah and now we see that indeed the source of information
is completely useless. These listings give no idea of
what real pay levels look like in the general industry.
Anyone who believes they do is operating under severe
misconceptions!
>
> When I last was looking for a position, calling the Ada
> work agents listed, they would be shocked if I mentioned
> a rate over $50/hr. Yet, calling the
> C++ agents, and asking for $80-$100/hr was not even
> questioned, and many  positions would be happy to pay
> that for the right person.>

There are many Ada programmers making very good salaries,
and many C and C++ programmers not making much at all. As
usual things depend on skills and requirements. Clearly
your Ada skills did not qualify you for the high paying
Ada jobs. It is certainly the case that really skilled
Ada programmers can do well for themselves these days!

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[robert_dewar]

In article <79urm0$f1o@drn.newsguy.com>,
  kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
> In article <36C2E425.D4A791E9@hercii.mar.lmco.com>, Jerry
> says...
> It is more than a guess. It is based on a small sampling
> I agree, but it is the same small sample used for C++
> also.

It's amazing what muddled thinking people have on such
statistic issues.

If you take a very small sample, which is almost certainly
not representative, and then extend an observation, which
even if the sample were representative would have limited
confidence, to a universal statement, then of *course*
it is a guess!

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[robert_dewar]

In article <79vd9b$45k$1@remarQ.com>,
  fraser@nospam.com wrote:
> I nearly cried when fraser@nospam.com said:
>
> >Ha!  So Ada is used to kill trees as well!

Unfortunately fraser had not even read the article to
which he replied. The original article addressed this
accusation specifically in an eloquent manner. THe poster
noted that the use of Ada to ensure more efficient usage
of trees was in fact *reducing* the number of trees that
were killed :-)

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[kevin]

In article <7a1e6b$68e$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com
says...
 
>> says...
>> It is more than a guess. It is based on a small sampling
>> I agree, but it is the same small sample used for C++
>> also.
>

>It's amazing what muddled thinking people have on such
>statistic issues.
>
>If you take a very small sample, which is almost certainly
>not representative, and then extend an observation, which
>even if the sample were representative would have limited
>confidence, to a universal statement, then of *course*
>it is a guess!
>
 
The sample (http://www.dice.com) is the best public sampling available to
many of us. extroplating (sp?) based on small samples is done all that time,
offcourse it will be nice to have a larger sample to have more confidence.

But the main point is, you have not given us any other source of data to
counter the data presented by dice. At least I point to some concrete data.

You want us to believe that Ada programmers make as well or even better than
C/C++/Java/VB programmers, when at the same time there is hardly any
positions open for Ada programmers and the few that are open are in
insignificant amount compared to the rest, this makes it a little 
hard to understand your argument.

Kevin.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Larry Kilgallen]

In article <7a1m6c$5i3@drn.newsguy.com>, kevin@nospamworld.com writes:

> The sample (http://www.dice.com) is the best public sampling available to
> many of us. extroplating (sp?) based on small samples is done all that time,
> offcourse it will be nice to have a larger sample to have more confidence.

The size of a sample does not guarantee its accuracy, selection criteria
must be considered.

http://www.dice.com is certainly an excellent selection of those who
choose to advertise on the Internet and choose dice.com as their vehicle.
It is, in fact, the definitive selection for those criteria.

From the (few) advertisements I have seen for dice.com, I would not at
all consider them a source of serious software engineers if I wanted to
hire one.

Larry Kilgallen

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Gautier]

> You want us to believe that Ada programmers make as well or even better than
> C/C++/Java/VB programmers, when at the same time there is hardly any
> positions open for Ada programmers and the few that are open are in
> insignificant amount compared to the rest, this makes it a little
> hard to understand your argument.

What's contradictory between the ideas (1) "Ada programmers make as well or even
better than C/C++/Java/VB programmers" and (2) "there is hardly any
positions open for Ada programmers and the few that are open are in
insignificant amount compared to the rest" ?

If would be contradictory if there would be a link between the efficiency
of a programming language and the its selection for IT projects. In fact
this selection is driven by everything but efficiency, mainly:

a) crowd effect, rumors, <<everybody uses xyz>>
b) conservatism, fear of abstraction at expense of portability
c) compatibility with existing sources, no language mixtures
d) availability of commercial tools, which depends heavily on a) - d) !

You have a nice feedback that's not converging to quality or efficience...

-- 
Gautier

--------
Homepage: http://www.unine.ch/math/Personnel/Assistants/Gautier/Montmollin.html
Software: http://www.unine.ch/math/Personnel/Assistants/Gautier/Gaut_FTP.htm.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Jerry van Dijk]

Larry Kilgallen (kilgallen@eisner.decus.org) wrote:

: From the (few) advertisements I have seen for dice.com, I would not at
: all consider them a source of serious software engineers if I wanted to
: hire one.

Actually, I never even heard of it...

--
-- Jerry van Dijk       | Leiden, Holland
-- Team Ada/Ada-Belgiun | jdijk@acm.org
-- see http://stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[whiter5195]

In article <7a1ce9$4l2$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <79tk4j$cqf@drn.newsguy.com>,
>   kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
>
> > Actually, Ada programmers make less than C++ or Java or
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^
  The title says "Ada software engineer" which might be
considered a horse of a different color.  In fact that may
be just one of the distinguishing attributes from a
"programmer".

> > even C.
>
> Reading this first sentence, it sounds dubious since it
> cites no reliable source.
>
> > You don't have to believe me, just go to
> > http://www.dice.com, search
> > for Ada as key word, you'll see about 30 or so positions,
> > with less pay than
> > C/C++/Java/Unix positions. (If you search for C++ you'll
> > get 100's of
> > positions).
>
> Ah and now we see that indeed the source of information
> is completely useless. These listings give no idea of
> what real pay levels look like in the general industry.
> Anyone who believes they do is operating under severe
> misconceptions!

  I agree.  That is not a location we use for experienced,
high salary, software engineers.  Rather a network of personal
contacts and skilled headhunters is used for the top 20 companies
hiring skilled talent from each other.  Some of the better
contract engineering (temp 1 - 5 year help) firms also do very
well in this venue.

> >
> > When I last was looking for a position, calling the Ada
> > work agents listed, they would be shocked if I mentioned
> > a rate over $50/hr. Yet, calling the
> > C++ agents, and asking for $80-$100/hr was not even
> > questioned, and many  positions would be happy to pay
> > that for the right person.>
>
> There are many Ada programmers making very good salaries,
> and many C and C++ programmers not making much at all. As
> usual things depend on skills and requirements. Clearly
> your Ada skills did not qualify you for the high paying
> Ada jobs. It is certainly the case that really skilled
> Ada programmers can do well for themselves these days!

  As a senior industry (avionics/navigation) software
engineer, I have to agree with Professor Dewar.  I
know what I make and what I have to pay to get skilled
experienced talent in our embedded systems product area.  No
different than what you quote above for capable personnel.
_____________________________________________________________________
Robert S. White   -- a little bit south of MN Mpls

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[robert_dewar]

In article <7a1m6c$5i3@drn.newsguy.com>,
  kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
> But the main point is, you have not given us any other
> source of data to counter the data presented by dice. At
> least I point to some concrete data.

Concrete data that is inadequate, incomplete and
insufficient for any useful generalizations is MUCH worse
than no data at all, because it is more likely to mislead
naive observers into believing that it means something,
Your posts are a good illustration of this effect!

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[fraser]

I nearly cried when robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com said:

>Unfortunately fraser had not even read the article to
>which he replied.

Too true.  On the other hand, had you read the article to which
you replied, you would have noticed that I replied to reply to
the article which I had not read, to say that I hadn't read it.  :)

ObAda: Ada isn't suitable for every application.  That's why
I write compilers for languages that are suitable in Ada.  The
question is, should I tell my doctor about it?

Fraser.

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Alan Hohn]

robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com wrote:

> In article <79vd9b$45k$1@remarQ.com>,
>   fraser@nospam.com wrote:
> > I nearly cried when fraser@nospam.com said:
> >
> > >Ha!  So Ada is used to kill trees as well!
>
> Unfortunately fraser had not even read the article to
> which he replied. The original article addressed this
> accusation specifically in an eloquent manner. THe poster
> noted that the use of Ada to ensure more efficient usage
> of trees was in fact *reducing* the number of trees that
> were killed :-)
>

Bob,

I love your snippy attacks of others' arguments as much as
the next c.l.a reader, which is to say I don't dare get in the way
of your bombast because I know you're <nearly> always right.
But I'm afraid you're tanked here. Not only did Fraser correct
himself, but your post includes his correcting post, not his mistaken
post, which leaves you open to the same charge you level against him.

I personally think chopping down trees is swell if it's done to make
houses or even good-looking spice racks for people. I also think
efficiency is even more swell for religious, economic, and intuitive
reasons. But I think this takes us away from the thrust of the
argument, which I extend thusly:

1. I am an Ada software engineer working for a large defense contractor;
2. I had no problem finding a job, and had many to choose from;
   -- I'm a direct employee, so my experience isn't that of a contractor
   -- like our initial poster, but read point 4;
3. I know for a fact that I make more as an Ada software engineer than
I would as a C++ whatever, because I got offers in both;
4. I don't give a rat's behind about your job situation, except to the
extent I can use your salary to get a raise out of my company. No offense.

Supplement: I know that the term "Ada software engineer" is self-limiting,

and that the software engineering I do, which is the valuable skill, is
not
specifically tied to any language. But we use Ada because it works, we
have
very reliable mission-critical software, and my experience in Ada made
me more attractive to potential employers.

Additional supplement: Yes, our mission-critical software kills things. It

also finds things that kill things, but I'm not going to euphemize. I
agree
with my colleague Dalen when he mentions the horror of war relative to
the horror of servitude, and I have sufficient faith in my country to take

pleasure from the fact that our soldiers will be able to kill things--and
people, since I'm not euphemizing--more reliably and efficiently
because of my work.

Yours in defense of Ada, Western Civilization, and the right of people
to correct themselves before someone else corrects them,
Alan Hohn

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[kevin]

In article <36C8A705.597D432A@planet8.tds-eagan.lmco.com>, Alan says...
>
 
>
>I personally think chopping down trees is swell if it's done to make
>houses or even good-looking spice racks for people.

no, killing trees, even if Ada is used for this, is not good.

without trees, we all will die. becuase trees make O2, which we need
to breath. Also tree are pretty. It is bad to kill trees. Build your
house from steel or stone or concrete.

>
>1. I am an Ada software engineer working for a large defense contractor;

Is there any other place an Ada programmer could work?
 
>3. I know for a fact that I make more as an Ada software engineer than
>I would as a C++ whatever, because I got offers in both;

It is obviouse if you work as an Ada programmer, sorry, "engineer", 
you'll make more than C++, since people will pay you based on your 
experience. But if you have 2 people with equal skills in Ada and C++, 
the C++ programmer, will not only have more open opportunities to choose 
from (and none of them to have to be to make software to kill people 
and tree), but they'll make more money also. 

>Supplement: I know that the term "Ada software engineer" is self-limiting,
>

There is no such thing as "software engineers". There are good or bad
programmers. programming is not an engineering. it is a craft, an art, with
some learned skills and patterns, and with some intrinsic talents the person
must have for software. You can teach  someone all the "Software engineerings"
courses in the world, and if they ain't got it, they'll never be able to 
build good software.

keven

Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[kevin]

In article <36C99BDF.BF0FA38F@mediaone.net>, Alan says...
>
>
>
 

>not nearly the most important part of developing software. 
>Experience has shown (and I recommend you to Brooks' _The Mythical Man-Month_)
>that the best coders cannot write reliable software if there is a bad
> architecture or design, and

Well, offcourse the software will be bad if the design is bad. (do you need
to read a book to know that?)
 
Also, there is no such things as 'coders'

There is one thing. a programmer. 

A good programmer does everything. good design. good code. good testing.
good debugging. and good gathering of requirements offcourse before everything.

This 'design' vs. 'coding' is an artificial or managerial view of the 
real world.  One can't just hit the keyboard without knowing what there
are doing. if they do, then they are bad programmers. nothing else.

So, get off this 'coder' vs. 'designer' mentality. This is only created by
those who have little clue about what software is all about. (Like authors
of books on 'software engineering' who could not write a 2-lines program 
if their live depended on it)

Kevin.

Re: Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[Alan Hohn]

kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:

> Well, offcourse the software will be bad if the design is bad. (do you need
> to read a book to know that?)
>

I think you miss the main focus, which is that a bad design will prevent a good
programmer from writing good software, and that our good programmer cannot always
do his own design. The climate is one in which more than one person is working on
the software, and so the continuity of skill and style from person to person is not
guaranteed and must be controlled by engineering practices. You really need to read
Brooks' book; even the first chapter would open your eyes. He quite agrees with you
that for small projects, a single good programmer can do all the things you
mention, but for large projects which require an immense number of personnel, the
interaction between them is different in kind, not just different in magnitude, and
requires the kind of, yes, engineering, that I mentioned previously. Your
programmer who performs all aspects of software development is neither practical
for such projects or indicative of the industry.

Let me use the example of Linux to make my point. The architect, Linus Torvalds,
certainly did not do everything from architecture through testing. He did the
architecture, a lot of design, and the barest coding possible (and almost no
testing). His genius comes from being able to create an architecture which would
accept change. His ability to architect would transfer to any language, on any
platform.

> So, get off this 'coder' vs. 'designer' mentality. This is only created by
> those who have little clue about what software is all about. (Like authors
> of books on 'software engineering' who could not write a 2-lines program
> if their live depended on it)

Brooks was in charge of the OS/360 project; perhaps you've heard of it. I'm sure
you strongly believe that bad management can make a large software project fail;
isn't it a logical corollary that good management can also have an impact?

I'm quite distressed at your use of bluster in place of reasoned argument.

Alan

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Tom Moran]

>You can teach  someone all the "Software engineerings"
>courses in the world, and if they ain't got it, they'll never be able to 
>build good software.
  Used to be true for shrinks, too, before drugs.  And doctors before
Pasteur et al.

What Ada's used for (was: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<)

[dennison]

In article <36C8A705.597D432A@planet8.tds-eagan.lmco.com>,
  Alan.M.Hohn@lmco.com wrote:

> Additional supplement: Yes, our mission-critical software kills things. It
>
> also finds things that kill things, but I'm not going to euphemize. I

I should point out to those who want to aspire to "higher causes" that I've
done a fair bit of Ada work for NASA.

I'd also like to point out the one common thread that *really* runs through
all the major problem domains Ada is typically mentioned with (Defense,
Aerospace, Air Traffic Control, NASA, public transit) is not killing things,
but the prime importance of doing things right. These are all domains where
you want the highest quality possible, because people have to entrust their
lives (or large anounts of their money) on the flawless operation of the
software systems.

T.E.D.

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Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[dennison]

In article <7aablt$qqt@drn.newsguy.com>,
  kevin@woldnospam.com wrote:
> In article <36C8A705.597D432A@planet8.tds-eagan.lmco.com>, Alan says...
> >
>
> >
> >I personally think chopping down trees is swell if it's done to make
> >houses or even good-looking spice racks for people.
>
> no, killing trees, even if Ada is used for this, is not good.
>
> without trees, we all will die. becuase trees make O2, which we need
> to breath. Also tree are pretty. It is bad to kill trees. Build your
> house from steel or stone or concrete.

My understanding is that most of our oxygen is actually made by blue-green
alge in the worlds oceans. I have heard that if an (entirely theoretical)
increase in CO2 were to occur, most likely this would encourage growth in the
alge to a point where the levels would quickly be restored to normal. But
*theories* of this sort are really the realm of one on the sci. newsgroups,
not comp.lang.ada

T.E.D.
(I grew up on the prairie, and I *hate* trees).

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Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[Alan Hohn]

kevin@woldnospam.com wrote:

> Is there any other place an Ada programmer could work?

Welcome to this thread. That's what it's about. Please read other messages.


>
>
> >3. I know for a fact that I make more as an Ada software engineer than
> >I would as a C++ whatever, because I got offers in both;
>
> It is obviouse if you work as an Ada programmer, sorry, "engineer",
> you'll make more than C++, since people will pay you based on your
> experience. But if you have 2 people with equal skills in Ada and C++,
> the C++ programmer, will not only have more open opportunities to choose
> from (and none of them to have to be to make software to kill people
> and tree), but they'll make more money also.
>

In all this drivel, there were a couple points raised which I neglected to address
adequately. This is why we do peer reviews, right? You get someone in who is
ignorant so they can question your assumptions and determine whether or not they
are warranted.

Kevin makes a point here which, if applicable, would hurt my argument. If my C++
experience does not match my Ada experience, I would not be qualified for the
really good C++ jobs. (I know, I'm putting too much emphasis on the language
again, but we're working in the constructed argument we're given.)

My personal situation: I started programming in BASIC and moved to Pascal and C. I
really only started learning Ada when I went to college, where I also did work in
C++ on X. When I graduated, I was able to find good, well-paid work doing Ada even
though my only real-world experience was Pascal (the Delphi variant) and C++.

I'm left open to the argument that I don't have the Windows C/C++/MFC experience
necessary to get some high paying C jobs. I do have a great deal of Windows and
event-driven programming experience, but not in that specific area. But I've
looked at a *lot* of those job listings, some of which even include salary range
(us entry-level types at least have the luxury that salaries are better published)
and the top-end range (for applicants with a few years' experience) was less than
or equal to my starting salary. So I think my decision to at least learn Ada was a
good one, not least for what it's taught me about software engineering.

On the topic of whether or not what we do is science or art, I sympathize. I too,
while learning how to program, frequently felt that the "rules" were either
intuitive or needlessly strict. I've done a great deal of tutoring in many
languages and have also noticed that some students need no explanation and some
require a great deal. It seems intuitively that there must be some talent which is
essential to a good coder; that is, someone who can take a design and implement it
reliably and efficiently in source.

But the hard truth, which was learned through many failures of large projects
containing the best and brightest programmers in the industry, is that coding is
not nearly the most important part of developing software. Experience has shown
(and I recommend you to Brooks' _The Mythical Man-Month_) that the best coders
cannot write reliable software if there is a bad architecture or design, and
mediocre coders are sufficient to write well-designed software. What this means
(and this is why the distinction between "programmers" and "software engineers"
was created) is that the most valuable people are the ones who can conceptualize a
system, irrespective of the environment in which it operates or the language in
which it is coded. These people still need the spark of creativity that good
programmers have, but they also need to follow sound engineering practices.

And I don't think that this is unique to software engineering. We admire the
beauty of the Golden Gate Bridge, but it's still there because it was
well-engineered. Similarly, we admire the work of Gregor Mendel for his creativity
in imagining how genetic traits are inherited, but the work of cross-breeding all
those plants required good engineering.

And by the way, I think it's great that Ada is used in the medical field to save
lives. I simply wanted to say that I work on military projects and I'm proud of
it.

Best regards,
Alan Hohn

Re: US-MN-Mpls >>> Ada Software Engineers <<<

[Scott Ingram]

kevin@woldnospam.com wrote:
> 
> In article <36C8A705.597D432A@planet8.tds-eagan.lmco.com>, Alan says...
> >
> 
> >
> >I personally think chopping down trees is swell if it's done to make
> >houses or even good-looking spice racks for people.
> 
> no, killing trees, even if Ada is used for this, is not good.
> 
> without trees, we all will die. becuase trees make O2, which we need
> to breath. Also tree are pretty. It is bad to kill trees. Build your
> house from steel or stone or concrete.
> 

Ridiculous!  Trees are just as much an agricultural product as
wheat or corn.  Following your logic I should eat seaweed rather
than bread because the fields of grain are too pretty to cut down?

And with more than twice as many trees now growing in America as
there were in the 1600s, we are not in any danger of running out
anytime soon.

(remainder snipped)

> keven

-- 
Scott Ingram
Sonar Processing and Analysis Laboratory
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory

Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[robert_dewar]

In article <7acbfk$c0t@drn.newsguy.com>,
  kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
> In article <36C99BDF.BF0FA38F@mediaone.net>, Alan says...
>
> >not nearly the most important part of developing
> >software.
> >Experience has shown (and I recommend you to Brooks'
> >_The Mythical Man-Month_)
> >that the best coders cannot write reliable software if
> >there is a bad
> > architecture or design, and
>
> Well, offcourse the software will be bad if the design is
> bad. (do you need
> to read a book to know that?)

Kevin, I hope you are not saying here that you have never
read "The Mythical Man-Month". This should be required
reading for everyone in the field, and if you have not
read it, I strongly recommend you do, I think you will
find it informative and fun :-)

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Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[Jerry van Dijk]

kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:

: This 'design' vs. 'coding' is an artificial or managerial view of the 
: real world.  One can't just hit the keyboard without knowing what there
: are doing. if they do, then they are bad programmers. nothing else.

No, it is not artificial, it has the do with the difference between domain
and implementation knowledge, among others.

: So, get off this 'coder' vs. 'designer' mentality. This is only created by
: those who have little clue about what software is all about. (Like authors
: of books on 'software engineering' who could not write a 2-lines program 
: if their live depended on it)

By this generalization and putting down others, you make it hard to take
your other arguments seriously.

--
-- Jerry van Dijk | Leiden, Holland
-- Team Ada       | jdijk@acm.org
-- see http://stad.dsl.nl/~jvandyk

Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[dennison]

In article <7ad7bv$sf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
  robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> In article <7acbfk$c0t@drn.newsguy.com>,
>   kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
> > In article <36C99BDF.BF0FA38F@mediaone.net>, Alan says...
> >
> > >not nearly the most important part of developing
> > >software.
> > >Experience has shown (and I recommend you to Brooks'
> > >_The Mythical Man-Month_)
> > >that the best coders cannot write reliable software if
> > >there is a bad
> > > architecture or design, and
> >
> > Well, offcourse the software will be bad if the design is
> > bad. (do you need
> > to read a book to know that?)
>
> Kevin, I hope you are not saying here that you have never
> read "The Mythical Man-Month". This should be required
> reading for everyone in the field, and if you have not
> read it, I strongly recommend you do, I think you will
> find it informative and fun :-)

Complete agreement here (including the "required reading" part). I've never
read another book where I exclaimed "Yeah!" out loud that often.

T.E.D.

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Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[dennison]

In article <36CC3047.3D28@cs.umd.edu>,
  Michael Stark <mstark@cs.umd.edu> wrote:
> dennison@telepath.com wrote:
> >
> > Complete agreement here (including the "required reading" part). I've never
> > read another book where I exclaimed "Yeah!" out loud that often.
>
> Mythical Man-Month is indeed required and a good read, but Peopleware
> elicited just as much vocal agreement from me, if not more!
>

Interesting you should bring that up, since I currently have Peopleware
sitting in my backpack. I've been rereading for the last couple of days.

I have to agree with that as well. Although the focus of Peopleware is on
managment, there are several things in there which an individual engineer can
use to try to increase their own productivity.

T.E.D.

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Re: Ada jobs & Programming: Art or Science? [was: MN]

[Michael Stark]

dennison@telepath.com wrote:
> 
> In article <7ad7bv$sf9$1@nnrp1.dejanews.com>,
>   robert_dewar@my-dejanews.com wrote:
> > In article <7acbfk$c0t@drn.newsguy.com>,
> >   kevin@nospamworld.com wrote:
<snip>
> > Kevin, I hope you are not saying here that you have never
> > read "The Mythical Man-Month". This should be required
> > reading for everyone in the field, and if you have not
> > read it, I strongly recommend you do, I think you will
> > find it informative and fun :-)
> 
> Complete agreement here (including the "required reading" part). I've never
> read another book where I exclaimed "Yeah!" out loud that often.

Mythical Man-Month is indeed required and a good read, but Peopleware
elicited just as much vocal agreement from me, if not more!

BTW -- Mythical Man Month has a 20th anniversary update that is worth 
buying even if you own the original.  It has 4 new chapters at the end,
including the famous "no silver bullet" paper and a following chapter
discussing the critical response to that paper.

Peopleware is supposed to have a 10th anniversary edition coming out.
I have yet to see it in Borders, though.

Mike
> 
> T.E.D.
> 
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-- 
Michael Stark
Goddard Research & Study Fellow
University of Maryland, College Park
e-mail: mstark@cs.umd.edu
phone: (301) 405-2721
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" --
Martin Luther King, Letter From Birmingham City Jail