* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
@ 1999-01-23 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
1999-01-24 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Matthew Heaney @ 1999-01-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Steve Whalen <swhalen@netcom.com> writes:
> Matthew Heaney <matthew_heaney@acm.org> wrote:
> [snip]
>
> : As a first book, I think John Barnes' Programming in Ada95, 2nd ed is
> : very good. It broadly covers that language, providing what I think is
> : just the right amount of detail.
>
> [snip]
>
> Out of curiosity, have you read the reviews of this book on Amazon.com?
> Do you think they are inaccurate? Unfair? (4 out of 5 trash it).
I like the book, and can't understand the vitriol of some of the
reviews of it at amazon.com.
Previous versions of the book have been criticized (not by me) because
there were only code "fragments," instead of complete examples. But the
new 2nd ed of this book rectifies that "flaw" by including a few
chapters that have complete, compilable examples.
It even comes with a CD, containing all the examples, and even a free
compiler.
What I want to learn from programming language book are idioms. What
"tricks" do you do to solve certain problems? Barnes gives examples
like that (like how to use limited, indefinite types to control instance
creation; cool iterator idioms).
In contrast, many other books are just a rehash of the RM.
Every time I read Barnes book, I learn something new. I also like that
at various places he cites how AIs how influenced the language in subtle
ways; thus, it's a living book.
> I'm curious, because I like to keep a list of books to recommend to
> people around to encourage interest in Ada95 whenever I encounter
> it, but want to be sure that I don't discourage someone by starting
> them off with a bad book (and have them turn their disappointment
> in the book, in to a dislike for Ada95).
>
> Most of the other Amazon.com review consensus's (?sp?) for Ada book's
> agree with my take on the book, where I have the book to compare.
Everyone is different, and probably looks for different things. My
reaction when reading Barnes is often, "Wow! That's really cool. I'm
gonna try to use that somewhere."
It's the wow factor that won me over. Other books just make my eyes
glaze over.
> I don't have the Barnes' book to look at, and while I'm not the
> "language lawyer" others on comp.lang.ada are, I've used Pascal
> and Ada for too many years to be able to look at a book from
> the perspective of a programmer who's never used / succeeded with
> a strongly typed language before.
Me too.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
@ 1999-01-23 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
1999-01-24 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Pat Rogers @ 1999-01-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Matthew Heaney wrote in message ...
<snip>
>I like the book, and can't understand the vitriol of some of the
>reviews of it at amazon.com.
I plan to write a positive review for amazon's site. I suggest that
anyone who likes the book do the same. It would be a shame for such a
good book to go unread.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
@ 1999-01-24 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Steve Whalen @ 1999-01-24 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Thanks for the review.
The reason I asked about the disparity between the 4 out of 5
reviewers on Amazon.com trashing Barnes' book and your comments, was
because the OTHER Ada books seemed to be well reviewed, and some were
well liked. It seemed that it was NOT a case of an anti-Ada bigot
just trashing Ada, but several people seemed really unhappy with the
book.
I've generally found the reviews on Amazon.com very helpful for
technical books. Generally, if a reviewer or two goes overboard
against or in favor of a book, usually several people will jump in
with more substantive reviews to "counter" the mis-impression. Sort
of like comp.lang.ada<g>. I find it handy to have the reviews right
there when I'm getting ready to order. I'm beginning to think one of
Amazon.com's best attributes is the information added by the earlier
buyers of the book adding their opinion to the standard publisher
info.
Steve
--
{===--------------------------------------------------------------===}
Steve Whalen swhalen@netcom.com
{===--------------------------------------------------------------===}
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
@ 1999-01-23 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
1999-01-25 0:00 ` David Botton
1999-01-26 0:00 ` Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari
1999-01-26 0:00 ` John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help) Pat Rogers
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Ada book help Stephane Barbey
3 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Alexy Khrabrov @ 1999-01-23 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
I've just got a new Ada textbook, for pushing into
our UPenn curriculum,
Ada for Software Engineers, M. Ben-Ari,
(Technion, Israel)
Addison-Wesley Longman, 1998.
It has Tucker Taft's endorsement that it's "one of
the best", which is what cautious people normally
say when they want to say just "the best".
As in dealings with Iraq, Israel here again
outpaces US.
The book maintains European width of view and
solid philosophical foundation of software
engineering, which too many US books forsake
while chasing hype of OO parlance.
Aside, there's nothing useful in calling functions
"methods", and variables "members" or even
"private members". For that matter, Fortran's
SUBROUTINE still pleases my eye more than cold and
impersonal "procedure". I don't believe in
OO/Windoze parlance waves. They will all
disappear, while SUBROUTINE will still be in use.
Say with me: OO/ShmOO. ActiveX/ShmActiveX.
CORBA/ShmORBA. DCOM/DshmOM. Java/ShmAVA.
Microsoft/ShMicroshmoft. :-)
This Ada book keeps the eyes on the prize of solid
software engineering whilke avoiding useless
terminological debris. AWL once again proves
itself as a great publisher of computer books.
No coincidence they acquired Longman, the
publisher of the best English dictionary, the
first one circularly checked with a computer as
early as in 1979...
Cheers,
Alexy
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
@ 1999-01-25 0:00 ` David Botton
1999-01-26 0:00 ` Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: David Botton @ 1999-01-25 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Actually it is published by:
John Wiley & Sons; ISBN: 0471979120
Alexy Khrabrov <khrabrov@unagi.cis.upenn.edu> wrote in article
> Ada for Software Engineers, M. Ben-Ari,
> (Technion, Israel)
> Addison-Wesley Longman, 1998.
>
> AWL once again proves
> itself as a great publisher of computer books.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
1999-01-25 0:00 ` David Botton
@ 1999-01-26 0:00 ` Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari @ 1999-01-26 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Alexy Khrabrov wrote:
> Ada for Software Engineers, M. Ben-Ari,
> (Technion, Israel)
> Addison-Wesley Longman, 1998.
Thanks for the recommendation!
But:
1. I'm at the Weizmann Institute of Science, not the Technion.
2. The book is published by John Wily & Sons, not AWL.
See my web page (address below) for TOC and Preface....
Moti
--
Prof. Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari Department of Science Teaching
Weizmann Institute of Science Rehovot 76100 Israel
mailto:ntbenari@wis.weizmann.ac.il or mailto:benari@acm.org
http://stwww.weizmann.ac.il/g-cs/benari/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-26 0:00 ` Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari
@ 1999-01-27 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Alexy Khrabrov @ 1999-01-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Shalom,
Greetings and thanks to all, including the author,
Mordechai Ben-Ari himself, who pointed out that
M. Ben-Ari's book is published by Wiley -- which
is as a distinguished publisher of Ada books as
AWL, and he's of course at Weizmann Institute,
which is, I heard, even better than Technion. :-)
However, my points about the book stay the same:
it gives better coverage since it follows an
encyclopedic tradition, and the author and the
publisher did a great job.
I salut to all the great authors of major Ada
books, including
Norman Cohen and his grand opus magnum
John Barnes and his dynamic classic
Mike Feldman et al. and their lucid textbook
Springer and their definitive series of Ada
standard editions, authored and edited by Tucker
Taft, John Barnes, and others
Now, if only Peter Wegner would update his book,
some of us would see that often, we already have
"been there, done that"! :-) This book,
"Programming with Ada: An Introduction by means of
Graduated Examples", 1980, is still one of the
best, IMHO.
Can somebody who knows Peter's current address
please forward this plea to him and update me on
his e-mail?
Shalom,
Alexy
Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari (ntbenari@wis.weizmann.ac.il) wrote:
: Alexy Khrabrov wrote:
: > Ada for Software Engineers, M. Ben-Ari,
: > (Technion, Israel)
: > Addison-Wesley Longman, 1998.
: Thanks for the recommendation!
: But:
: 1. I'm at the Weizmann Institute of Science, not the Technion.
: 2. The book is published by John Wily & Sons, not AWL.
: See my web page (address below) for TOC and Preface....
: Moti
: --
: Prof. Mordechai (Moti) Ben-Ari Department of Science Teaching
: Weizmann Institute of Science Rehovot 76100 Israel
: mailto:ntbenari@wis.weizmann.ac.il or mailto:benari@acm.org
: http://stwww.weizmann.ac.il/g-cs/benari/
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help)
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Matthew Heaney
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Alexy Khrabrov
@ 1999-01-26 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-01-28 0:00 ` Roy Grimm
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Ada book help Stephane Barbey
3 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Pat Rogers @ 1999-01-26 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Steve Whalen wrote in message ...
>Matthew Heaney <matthew_heaney@acm.org> wrote:
>[snip]
>
>: As a first book, I think John Barnes' Programming in Ada95, 2nd ed
is
>: very good. It broadly covers that language, providing what I think
is
>: just the right amount of detail.
>
>[snip]
>
>Out of curiosity, have you read the reviews of this book on
Amazon.com?
>Do you think they are inaccurate? Unfair? (4 out of 5 trash it).
Yes, I believe them to be unfair. I have both editions and think they
are excellent work (especially the second).
Let me suggest to everyone that has both read and enjoyed the second
edition of John's book to go to www.amazon.com, do a ISBN search on
0201342936, and enter your review. It would be a pity if only those
with an ax to grind spoke up.
It takes a few days for reviews to appear. If you like the book, I
encourage you to say so!
---
Pat Rogers
Technical Editor, Ada Letters
progers@acm.org
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help)
1999-01-26 0:00 ` John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help) Pat Rogers
@ 1999-01-27 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
1999-01-28 0:00 ` Roy Grimm
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Richard D Riehle @ 1999-01-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
The Second Edition of Programming in Ada 95 is
a truly excellent book. John Barnes has updated
quite a few of his examples, and provided some
fully coded examples of topics that are not published
anywhere else.
On the other hand, one of my students from Japan just
sent me an email noting an error in some code on page
254. Anyone who has ever published knows that some
little error slips by now and then. So far, this is
the only error I have noted in the Second Edition.
As mentioned in an earlier post, I still think the books
by Ben-Ari and John English are still good choices for
newcomers to Ada. But the Barnes book belongs in everyone's
library if they are serious about Ada.
Richard Riehle
richard@adaworks.com
http://www.adaworks.com
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help)
1999-01-26 0:00 ` John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help) Pat Rogers
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Richard D Riehle
@ 1999-01-28 0:00 ` Roy Grimm
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Roy Grimm @ 1999-01-28 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Pat Rogers wrote:
>
> Let me suggest to everyone that has both read and enjoyed the second
> edition of John's book to go to www.amazon.com, do a ISBN search on
> 0201342936, and enter your review. It would be a pity if only those
> with an ax to grind spoke up.
>
> It takes a few days for reviews to appear. If you like the book, I
> encourage you to say so!
>
> ---
> Pat Rogers
> Technical Editor, Ada Letters
> progers@acm.org
I've been using his 3rd edition "Programming In Ada" book for years now,
since I used it as a text book in college lo those (not so) many years
ago. Even with the less than stellar reviews as the only source of
information, I still may have considered buying his Ada95 book. The
only criticism I saw in the poor reviews was that it wasn't for
beginners. Well, I'm certainly not a beginner and need a book that
thoroughly covers all the topics. The review that contained useful
comments for experienced programmers was enough to convince me.
Amazon.com says it's been shipped and I look forward to reading it when
it arrives. I will be sure to put up a review once I read through it
once or twice.
Roy Grimm
Software Engineer
Rockwell Collins, Inc.
My opinions do not necessarily reflect those of my employer.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-23 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
1999-01-26 0:00 ` John Barnes' book reviews at Amazon (was Re: Ada book help) Pat Rogers
@ 1999-01-27 0:00 ` Stephane Barbey
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
1999-01-28 0:00 ` Ada book help (on Amazon.com) Steve Whalen
3 siblings, 2 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Stephane Barbey @ 1999-01-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Steve Whalen wrote in message ...
>Out of curiosity, have you read the reviews of this book on Amazon.com?
>Do you think they are inaccurate? Unfair? (4 out of 5 trash it).
Thanks to pointing to those reviews: I had my dose of laugh for today when
reading that a
reviewer "from DC, USA" points out that:
"In one instance, in a disturbing attempt at explaining the structure of
arrays in ADA, the author
chooses to use the concept of a PASCAL triangle. Don't ask why. Or how. Or
what's the point."
... so you should probably not take those critics too seriously.
-Stephane
----
Stephane Barbey, PhD phone: +41(31)828.92.17
Paranor AG fax: +41(31)828.92.99
3046 Wahlendorf stephane@paranor.ch
Switzerland http://lglwww.epfl.ch/~barbey
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Ada book help Stephane Barbey
@ 1999-01-27 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Mike Silva
1999-01-28 0:00 ` Ada book help (on Amazon.com) Steve Whalen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 24+ messages in thread
From: Pat Rogers @ 1999-01-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Stephane Barbey wrote in message <78n30i$6v8$1@pollux.ip-plus.net>...
<snip>
>... so you should probably not take those critics too seriously.
True, but the problem is that some/many will, and the reviews on the
web page do not go away. I encourage you to write a review yourself.
---
Pat Rogers Training & Development in:
http://www.classwide.com Deadline Schedulability Analysis
progers@acm.org Software Fault Tolerance
(281)648-3165 Real-Time/OO Languages
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
@ 1999-01-27 0:00 ` Mike Silva
0 siblings, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Mike Silva @ 1999-01-27 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Pat Rogers wrote in message <78n94o$r0h$1@remarQ.com>...
>Stephane Barbey wrote in message <78n30i$6v8$1@pollux.ip-plus.net>...
>
><snip>
>
>>... so you should probably not take those critics too seriously.
>
>
>True, but the problem is that some/many will, and the reviews on the
>web page do not go away. I encourage you to write a review yourself.
I was definitely put off by the amazon.com reviews, and didn't buy the book
as a result. Now that you folks have talked up the book (and I trust your
views more than some anonymous people <or just one?>) I've ordered it.
Mike
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread
* Re: Ada book help (on Amazon.com)
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Ada book help Stephane Barbey
1999-01-27 0:00 ` Pat Rogers
@ 1999-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Whalen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 24+ messages in thread
From: Steve Whalen @ 1999-01-28 0:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
Stephane Barbey <Stephane@Paranor.ch> wrote:
[snip]
: >Out of curiosity, have you read the reviews of this book on Amazon.com?
: Thanks to pointing to those reviews: I had my dose of laugh for today when
: reading that a
: reviewer "from DC, USA" points out that:
[snip]
: ... so you should probably not take those critics too seriously.
: -Stephane
If I had read the reviews, I would have had the same reaction.
However,the way Amazon displays a book's 1st page of information, you
only get to see some colored stars that represent the "concensus" and
the number of reviews that make up the score/concensus. With one of
the lowest rating's I've seen for a book on Amazon and 5 reviews, I
didn't even bother to look at what the reviewers said.
I never got past the 1st screen of information on Amazon.com until I
read the positive comments here on comp.lang.ada.
I agree with those who've said that anyone who has read Barnes' book
and likes it, should add their review on Amazon.com. Then more people
will get past the first page. If the # of stars had been at least
"neutral", I would have gone on to read the reviews.
It's got to be hard enough to sell Ada95 books without this kind of
obstacle.
Steve
--
{===--------------------------------------------------------------===}
Steve Whalen swhalen@netcom.com
{===--------------------------------------------------------------===}
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 24+ messages in thread