* converting my employer to Ada? @ 1994-09-23 0:25 lmiller 1994-09-25 5:42 ` Frank Manning 0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: lmiller @ 1994-09-23 0:25 UTC (permalink / raw) Hello, I just recently switched jobs, from a position where I used Ada to one where the language of choice is C/C++. We will be using LYNX as our host OS and will be developing multithresded applications for real time systems. I've been boning up on the ins and outs of posix threads in the LYNX manuals and was looking at the examples. I was struch by the ammount of error checking code required in C (especially if you check the return value from everything you call). I also thought that compared to Ada tasking, POSIX threads are an outrageous pain in the ass by comparison. Being the Ada genious that I am, I thought to myself "Why don't they just switch to Ada and be done with all this extra error checking ^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h result checking and POSIX thread hoop jumping. How would the Ada mavens out there in net land suggest I bring my idea to my new (just 4 days so far) employer, with the associated supporting documentation to prove my case? They will not be porting a considerable ammount of code from old systems to the new system, so that's not an issue. They are a small outfit and from what I've heard, been scared from what the've heard about Ada. BTW I did use Ada two employers back to do the exact same kind of work. -- Dana (Who still shudders at the sight of if ((result_value = uglyPosixCall(foo)) != TRUE) { _goUddersUp((void) bar); } ) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: converting my employer to Ada? 1994-09-23 0:25 converting my employer to Ada? lmiller @ 1994-09-25 5:42 ` Frank Manning 1994-09-26 12:04 ` Ted Dennison 0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Frank Manning @ 1994-09-25 5:42 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <1994Sep22.192505.8500@ivax> lmiller@indyvax.iupui.edu writes: > How would the Ada mavens out there in net land suggest I bring my idea > to my new (just 4 days so far) employer, with the associated supporting > documentation to prove my case? The following is a list of ideas, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Disclaimer: If you're lucky enough to work for actual human beings, and if they know what they're doing, more or less, you might want to skip this post :-) And give thanks for your good fortune. I wonder if we're trying to sell Ada to the wrong people -- that is, programmers. Maybe we need to go over their heads and bend the ears of the people in power. Those people are frequently control freaks. And they're frequently technically incompetent. "Technically competent management?" Isn't that an oxymoron? Am I right? How many of you are working for management that knows what it's doing? I thought so. You know the type. They're like a dominant dog -- they won't accept something unless they can pee all over it. And what do those people like? Standardization. Order. Predictability. A clear target to aim at. But most of all, they want power. Ask them this -- "Who do you want in control? You? Or your programmers?" Pause here while they roll around on the floor laughing. "You don't actually have to write the code," you point out. "You don't actually have to compile it or get it to work. That's a job for the hired help." Oh, relax. Remember who you're talking to. To them, if you're not a fellow wizard [1], you're the hired help. Nothing personal. "But wouldn't you like to be able to read the code?" you ask. "Wouldn't you like to be able to look over their shoulders and get an idea what's going on? If you can't read it and see a clear target, how are you going to aim at it?" Er, wait. Perhaps we shouldn't say that last bit out loud. Let's keep that to ourselves, shall we? Show them two pages of code, side by side -- one in Ada and an equivalent one in C. Ask which one they can read better. If we can successfully appeal to the one thing they want more than anything else -- power -- how can we lose? But be careful. If you get this far, there's a land mine just waiting to be stepped on. Ultimately, I think, the great danger is not Ada vs. C/C++. It's Ada vs. BASIC. A lot of these guys love BASIC. Technically incompetent, remember? Here you can appeal to their love of order and predictability. Show them two pages of code, side by side, each in a different BASIC dialect. Point out the porting difficulties. Compare with Ada. Will this approach work? Maybe, maybe not. We're not dealing with rationality here. "But if I'm looking for something," they say, "it's either above or below the cursor. It's too complicated if you split the program into more than one file." Translation: it's too hard to aim at. "And what's wrong with GOSUB 5000 anyway?" You think I'm making this up? Heh. Don't get me wrong about BASIC. I think the language is perfectly OK in small doses. The headaches come from trying to write 17k loc of real-time code in QuickBasic -- a pothole I had the misfortune to fall into. Anyway, back to Ada and C. We might find allies in coworkers who are non-programmers. They already know how dependent their project is on the success of the software. They also know how important communication is. Ask them if they would like to be able to at least read the source code if they wanted to. Show them the two pages of Ada and C code. Ask them if they really want workers to be divided into two classes -- the cognoscenti, who are the only ones who can even come close to reading the "code," and the rest of us. Ada can be at least vaguely readable by a non-programmer. C/C++ is completely opaque to a non-programmer. Before a flame war starts, I fully understand that C/C++ is easy to read when you get used to it. The problem is with non-programmers and non-technical management. Perhaps they're the people we should be selling Ada to. -- Frank Manning [1] By wizard, I don't mean computer wizard. I mean _Wizard of Oz_ wizard, as in "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!" ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: converting my employer to Ada? 1994-09-25 5:42 ` Frank Manning @ 1994-09-26 12:04 ` Ted Dennison 1994-09-26 16:53 ` Frank Manning 0 siblings, 1 reply; 5+ messages in thread From: Ted Dennison @ 1994-09-26 12:04 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <3632jb$og6@news.CCIT.Arizona.EDU>, frank@bigdog.engr.arizona.edu (Frank Manning) writes: |> In article <1994Sep22.192505.8500@ivax> lmiller@indyvax.iupui.edu writes: |> |> > How would the Ada mavens out there in net land suggest I bring my idea |> > to my new (just 4 days so far) employer, with the associated supporting |> > documentation to prove my case? |> |> The following is a list of ideas, somewhat tongue-in-cheek. |> (snip) |> You know the type. They're like a dominant dog -- they won't accept |> something unless they can pee all over it. |> (snip) |> "But wouldn't you like to be able to read the code?" you ask. "Wouldn't you |> like to be able to look over their shoulders and get an idea what's going |> on? If you can't read it and see a clear target, how are you going to aim |> at it?" (snip) Answer: No. I want to tell them what I want, and have them go make it (while I nap in my office). If it were readable, someone might actualy want me to DO SOMETHING (like read it). Try again, Frank. :-) T.E.D. dennison@romulus.orl.mmc.com Disclaimer: My employer probably believes the opposite is true. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: converting my employer to Ada? 1994-09-26 12:04 ` Ted Dennison @ 1994-09-26 16:53 ` Frank Manning 0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread From: Frank Manning @ 1994-09-26 16:53 UTC (permalink / raw) In article <366ddb$et5@theopolis.orl.mmc.com> dennison@romulus23 (Ted Dennison) writes: > Answer: > No. I want to tell them what I want, and have them go make it (while I > nap in my office). If it were readable, someone might actualy want me to DO > SOMETHING (like read it). > > (snip) Really? You sound suspiciously like the guy I referred to in my first paragraph -- an actual human being who knows what he's doing. In that case, my post wouldn't refer to you. Speaking for myself, nothing makes me happier than a boss who goes away and lets me do my job. That keeps us both happy. -- Frank ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
* Re: converting my employer to Ada?
@ 1994-09-25 20:08 tmoran
0 siblings, 0 replies; 5+ messages in thread
From: tmoran @ 1994-09-25 20:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
> BTW I did use Ada two employers back to do the exact same kind of work.
You were hired for your knowledge as well as your cleverness. I would
think your successful experience with very similar problems would be a
big plus in your argument.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 5+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~1994-09-26 16:53 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 5+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 1994-09-23 0:25 converting my employer to Ada? lmiller 1994-09-25 5:42 ` Frank Manning 1994-09-26 12:04 ` Ted Dennison 1994-09-26 16:53 ` Frank Manning -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below -- 1994-09-25 20:08 tmoran
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