Re: What ada 83 compiler is *best*

[marc j bejerano <mjbejer5@cacd.rockwell.com>]

Rick Thorne wrote:
> 
> Roga Danar wrote:
> 
> > What?  If I am not mistaken DEC has distance itself from VAX.
> > Ada is continues to
> > be supported by many people throughout the world.
> 
> Sure.  If you want to spend your career programming in Sweden, have a nut,
> buddy.  I'd rather stay here in Silicon Valley where the planet comes to
> the feeding frenzy.

Or anywhere that embedded development is taking place...
 
> >  If you have any statistics on the "rotting" of Ada I would love to see them.
> 
> *contemptuous chuckle*
> 
> Why don't you read your Sunday paper, friend?  Check out the want ads.  MY
> "statistical" survery tells me this: for every Ada job opening there are
> literally - LITERALLY - dozens for Java and C++.  What statistical
> sampling do I need other than this?  Yup, Ada IS a great language.  I
> agree.  The Edsel was a great car, too.  How many people do you seeing
> driving them, let alone BUYING them?

Yes, and millions of lines of VB code are written daily (hmmm,
technically, they're drag-n-dropped daily). So what. Just because the
herd is stampeding in one direction doesn't mean that there isn't ANY
development in Ada. From my experience, most Ada jobs are not advertised
in the Times classified but, rather, are filtered through recruiters who
know where to look for Ada developers (www.adahome.com et.al.)
 
> Look, too, at the Usenet news groups.  Compare the traffic on
> comp.lang.ada to comp.lang.c++.* and comp.lang.java.*.  The Ada newgroup
> is orders of magnitude smaller.  Look at the journals.  When's the last
> time Ada was of the cover of IEEE Software?  Walk into Computer Literacy
> or any other book store carrying geek literature.  What's the ratio of
> C++/Java books to Ada?  It's easily orders of magnitude in difference.

Using this inane logic one could surmise that Ada programmers don't ask
as many stupid and off-topic questions as C/C++ and Java programmers
since, when reading comp.lang.ada I rarely find anything that is off
topic whereas when reading the aforementioned newsgroups there are
literally dozens of off-topic conversations going on that have nothing
to do with programming.
 
> I realize a few people are riding the Ada legacy and making money.  You're
> welcome to it.  There are people pimping and selling crack to 12 year olds
> too.  I don't want THAT money either, thank you.  I'll continue making
> money elsewhere - and in technologies that have a future in both fun AND
> promising projects.

The last three contracts I've worked on were anything but legacy. True,
they were all embedded systems but then that's where Ada's strength
lies.

> > Since Ada is a great language and as many advantages and few drawbacks
> > compared
> > with the more popular languages like C/C++, Java, Pascal, Fortran, Cobol
> > etc... It
> > is only a matter of time and marketing that Ada is placed, rightfully, as the
> > language for the next millennium, IMHO.
> 
> *gaffaw, snort, laugh out loud, wheeze*  Pardon me, sir.  I need to catch
> my breath.  The only thing more pathetically funny to me than bad logic is
> bad prognostication.  Thanx for making my day on BOTH counts.
> 
> What utter nonsense.  Your presumption that Ada has a great future because
> it's a great language is laughable.  Why do I say this?  Look at APL, PL1,
> and Simula.  All are great languages - and as dead as Ada WILL BE in the
> next 20 years.  If Ada has any future at all it's only because of its
> legacy.  I do realize that Ada has SOME popularity in Europe, but it's use
> in the US is driven almost purely by the DoD Ada Initiative.  The Ada
> Initiative has been (correctly) identified as a mistake, and Ada is now in
> its death throws in the US.  Like it or not, sir, the US drives the world
> markets, and Ada's un-popularity in American commercial markets AND its
> un-popularity among US software developers means its days are numbered.
> Believe me.  I'm a former Ada man myself, and I see it dying rapidly even
> in DoD circles.  I'm currently submitting a proposal to NASA in behalf of
> a local company and the government managers know all too well that NO ONE
> wants Ada any more.  They don't even ask about it!

Possibly true. Since I'm currently working at a large corporation that
develops avionics systems I would have to disagree with this assessment.
All new development is still done in Ada. Most managers who don't want
to hear about Ada are usually the ones with little to no good
experiences with Ada projects (this is not uncommon in other languages
either).
 
> Time and marketing?!?!  I have two words for this: puh-lease.  How are
> time and marketing going to help Ada?  Take a look at the language
> technologies that have absolutely left Ada in the dust: Java, C++, Perl,
> Python, etc.  Why?  Simple: TIME AND MARKETING.  Java and C++ already have
> the markets that Ada missed, and those markets are too happy with Java and
> C++ to open their doors to an experiment that's already failed.  You're
> welcome to continue fooling yourself all you like, sir, but Java and C++
> already own the US development scene, and Ada isn't going to crack the
> nut.  NO WAY!  Name me a large commercial US software developer who's
> changing to Ada!  Name 20!  Even if you can, for every one you can name I
> can name 20 that laugh at the notion of Ada overrunning the US software
> development world.  I work in that world; believe me, I know.  I abandoned
> Ada years ago and I haven't been out of work a DAY because of it, nor will
> I be out of work for the forseeable future.

I haven't abandoned Ada and I've been working without a break/layover
for over 8 years. I do, however, agree that Ada is a niche language and
will never (possibly) be "the language for the next millenium."

> I work in Silicon Valley as a software consultant and I promise you, sir,
> Ada isn't on the horizon of anyone - ANYONE - I regard as a client, and
> for all the right reasons.  I agree - Ada's a great language.  So what?
> GREATNESS hasn't stopped other ideas from self-destructing.  Look at
> BetaMax, Dvorak keyboards, The Artist Formerly Known as Prince, and the
> literally thousands of computer languages that have come and gone in our
> world.  In a way, I admire your strange devotion and naive hopefullness,
> but I'm on my way to retiring young and I can tell that I don't have Ada
> to thank for it!

True. Quality does not a successful product or language make (hell, if
it did, Windows wouldn't be as wildly popular as it is). Personally,
fluency in many programming languages should be the goal of every
programmer (at least 2 languages). This knowledge can only help someone
design systems and applications as every language offers a different set
of features and trade-offs. How long would it have taken C++ to get
templates, exceptions, and tasking (okay, it's usually just a library or
API call) if it weren't for Ada (which has has all these features longer
than C++ has)? I still do not forsee C++ getting tasking (or
multi-threading) built into the language any time soon (Java, however,
does have this feature).

Just my $0.02 rebuttal.

--
Marc Bejerano
Software Engineer/Consultant