From: miker3@ix.netcom.com (Michael Rubenstein)
Subject: Re: Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java?
Date: 1998/02/13
Date: 1998-02-13T06:25:10-06:00 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <34e43647.50558038@nntp.ix.netcom.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: 6c09ub$78@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net
On Thu, 12 Feb 1998 19:06:47 -0700, "James Giles"
<jamesgiles@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>
>Michael Rubenstein wrote in message
><34e45ae8.320334566@nntp.ix.netcom.com>...
>...
>>However, my post did not claim that this is correct usage (I never
>>even claimed to know what that means). It should have been clear
>>that I was responding to the statement "[t]he language will be lost,
>>but it is important to use political correctness." As the OED shows,
>>this is not a new usage and I have some difficulty attributing most of
>>the quotes in the OED to "political correctness" nor do I find it
>>credible that they are a reaction to "your girl can contact my girl."
>
>I looked through your list and could find none that actually used the
>plural pronoun to refer to a single person. They referred to non-empty
>collections of people that just happened to be introduced in a preceeding
>clause with a *grammatically* singular phrase (eg. "Many a Sarazen lost
>their life"). Clearly, the plural pronoun is referring to the many people
>that fit the initial noun phrase.
>
>The modern "political correctness" advacates would use the plural pronoun
>even when the antecedent is clearly singular. The worst of the bunch
>consist of such completely unnecessary combinations as "a man lost
>their wife" or "a girl had their bike stolen." Here, the pronoun referring
>to the poor widower could clearly have lost "his" wife with no sexism
>implied. And you really wonder who owned the bike the girl was
>associated with: your initial thought is that maybe the word order
>is wrong and it should have said "the girl had their stolen bike."
>
>What do you suggest is the meaning of "The pilot is in command of the
>flight crew and they are responsible for the safe operation of the plane."?
>If you were to say that the whole flight crew was collectively responsible
>for safety, you'd be wrong. The pilot is individually responsible for the
>safe
>operation of the aircraft. The singular/plural ambiguity is more important
>than any percieved sexism in the language. Adopting plural pronouns for
>the singular generic merely decreases the efficiency of the language.
>
>Oh well. It's happened before (changes making the language less efficient).
>It'll probably happen again.
Obviously you are very bothered by this. So bothered that you didn't
notice that the sentence that started this may be considered to fall
into that category. It was not talking about a specific individual.
How is
The more a "programmer" knows, the more "well rounded" they
are.
different from
A person can�t help their birth.
I'm afraid I just don't share your concern about the "efficiency" of
the language. We've survived the use of the plural pronoun for the
second person singular. From the OED definition of "you":
Originally the accusative and dative plural of the second
personal pronoun: see thou for the declension of the 2nd pers.
pron. in OE. and ME. Between 1300 and 1400 it began to be used
also for the nominative ye, which it had replaced in general
use by about 1600. During the 14th century it also appears as
a substitute for the singular obj. thee and nom. thou, being
originally used in token of respect in addressing a superior,
but later also to an equal, and ultimately generally: cf. thou
1. Thus you is now the general pronoun of the second person,
nominative or objective, singular or plural.]
Languages change.
--
Michael M Rubenstein
next prev parent reply other threads:[~1998-02-13 0:00 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 156+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
1998-01-30 0:00 Which language pays most -- C++ vs. Java? scott
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Jahfre
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Art/Jeannie Daly
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Ian Chivers
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1999-07-30 0:00 ` Paul Mesken
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Dennis Weldy
1998-02-18 0:00 ` mei
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Charles W. Hall
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Rennie Allen
1998-01-30 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Graham Broadbridge
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-11 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Peter Hermann
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Mad Hamish
1998-02-14 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-15 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Flaagg
1998-02-17 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Anthony Jenkins
1998-02-18 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Vinay Mutha
1998-02-20 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-21 0:00 ` Sakurambo
1998-02-21 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dave Hillstrom
1998-02-16 0:00 ` WeeSaul
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Steven B Mohler
1998-02-14 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Ethics Gradient
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Paulo Pena
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Dik T. Winter
1998-02-19 0:00 ` D J Mann
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-02-19 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6cigl4$m11@news.Hawaii.Edu>
1998-02-20 0:00 ` Paul Stevenson
1998-02-20 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-03-02 0:00 ` Mailuser
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Eric Clayberg
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Dietmar Stumpe
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Entwistle
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Chris Gray
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Stephen Taylor
1998-02-12 0:00 ` John W. Lewellen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Michael Rubenstein [this message]
1998-02-13 0:00 ` James Giles
1998-02-17 0:00 ` K. C. Putnam
1998-02-17 0:00 ` gypsy
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Benz
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Tor Iver Wilhelmsen
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd37cf$fa30c4e0$56dacdcf@ms112188.mindspring.com>
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-12 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-12 0:00 ` Will Rose
1998-02-12 0:00 ` docdwarf
[not found] ` <01bd3803$441d4c30$ee6de288@ato-10098>
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-13 0:00 ` Jeff York
1998-02-13 0:00 ` docdwarf
1998-02-13 0:00 ` M.L. Scott
1998-02-13 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-17 0:00 ` martin dowie
1998-02-16 0:00 ` tgg
1998-02-16 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-14 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Joseph T. Adams
1998-02-17 0:00 ` Richard Kenner
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
1997-12-19 0:00 Which language pays most 17457 " James Giles
1997-12-22 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-21 0:00 ` James Giles
1997-12-28 0:00 ` Lawrence Kirby
1997-12-30 0:00 ` paulr
1997-12-31 0:00 ` Which language pays most " arnie sherman
1997-12-30 0:00 ` Dann Corbit
1997-12-31 0:00 ` John Slaman
[not found] ` <01bd198f$4050d960$68c8b5cc@dhite.unicomp.net>
1998-01-06 0:00 ` Jedi
1998-01-10 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Carsten Arnholm
1998-01-15 0:00 ` Highlander Consulting
1998-01-16 0:00 ` Charles F Hankel
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Paul Groves
1999-08-09 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-11 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-12 0:00 ` Ron Peterson
1998-01-14 0:00 ` anonymous
1998-01-19 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
[not found] ` <01bd2526$66b70fa0$d6d945cf@juddesk>
1998-01-23 0:00 ` dnns
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Barrabazz
1998-01-28 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Tim Oxler
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Wayne L. Beavers
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Frank A. Adrian
1998-02-03 0:00 ` GLE
1998-02-03 0:00 ` The Goobers
1998-02-03 0:00 ` Harold Stevens ** PLEASE SEE SIG **
1998-01-29 0:00 ` coryb
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Robert S. White
1998-01-30 0:00 ` Patricia Shanahan
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Paul Van Bellinghen
1998-02-01 0:00 ` Nick Roberts
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Jeff Knaggs
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Michael Rot13 Klein
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-02-10 0:00 ` dogmat
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Edwin Purvee
[not found] ` <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Steve Dekorte
1998-02-10 0:00 ` Bill Lynch
1998-02-11 0:00 ` dogmat
1998-01-29 0:00 ` Joe Gwinn
1998-01-31 0:00 ` Larry Wiggins
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Ben Pfaff
1999-07-29 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <01bd2c3c$6726d520$8101b8c7@MIS-RKW95.spartan.com>
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-02-02 0:00 ` Michael C. Kasten
[not found] ` <6alu5l$onm$1@owl.slip <34E0D798.E29D6CA0@cableol.co.uk>
1998-02-11 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
[not found] ` <gwinn-1901981219520001@dh5055142. <34CE059C.634DE881@snet.com>
1998-01-27 0:00 ` Kaz Kylheku
1998-01-28 0:00 ` Robert Garskof
1998-02-09 0:00 ` cyanide
1998-01-02 0:00 ` Philip Hunt
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